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How about if we delay to do something we know will have immediate results, like windherding enchantments?

It's literally one AP [and some favour] to have something that breaks Teclisian theory over its knee, and cause for another lecture tour (Windherding is a skill - we can teach it).

I suspect that the number of people we can teach will be fairly limited. Windherder required windsage to get, which I imagine is not very common given how exceptional mathilde's windsight is notes to be. So i'm Expecting a half-dozen candidates tops, with maybe 2-3 actually managing to make anything useful, if it turns out to be at all teachable - which is not necessarily the case.

Now, probably still worth doing for other reasons, but I don't think it's teachability is a good argument.
 
I suspect that the number of people we can teach will be fairly limited. Windherder required windsage to get, which I imagine is not very common given how exceptional mathilde's windsight is notes to be. So i'm Expecting a half-dozen candidates tops, with maybe 2-3 actually managing to make anything useful, if it turns out to be at all teachable - which is not necessarily the case.

Now, probably still worth doing for other reasons, but I don't think it's teachability is a good argument.
Working something out for yourself is always harder than being taught it. I see absolutely no reason to assume that the only people able to learn to windherd will be those whose windsight is good enough to work it out for themself.

And even if there's only half a dozen successes (in this generation, with more over the future centuries) that's still infinitely more than could ever benefit from Aethyric Vitae knowledge - given as there's no path to getting a second source of the stuff.
 
Well yes, but they do not expect her to solve the problem with her own skills, they expect her to get dwarfs on it.
What part of getting Dwarfs involved do you think would make it more likely to produce immediate results, here? It's already been 4-5 years from the topic being broached to Mathilde and the project even being started at all, an expectation that any result of note will be produced in six months to a year is patently absurd.
 
How about if we delay to do something we know will have immediate results, like windherding enchantments?

It's literally one AP [and some favour] to have something that breaks Teclisian theory over its knee, and cause for another lecture tour (Windherding is a skill - we can teach it).
The immediate effect there is just having the enchanted item, and being able to write a paper about it - anything deeper would take more actions, and then it's another long research project. If we have an immediate use for the enchanted item then sure, but otherwise I don't think it's really achieving anything.
 
What part of getting Dwarfs involved do you think would make it more likely to produce immediate results, here? It's already been 4-5 years from the topic being broached to Mathilde and the project even being started at all, an expectation that any result of note will be produced in six months to a year is patently absurd.

I meant that they are expecting dwarf involvement soon not results. Also we do not know what the political landscape is like, there may be those who are actively opposed to the abandonment of isolation who will hold a lack of progress against the project as a whole especially if there are no dwarfs to be seen.
 
The immediate effect there is just having the enchanted item, and being able to write a paper about it - anything deeper would take more actions, and then it's another long research project. If we have an immediate use for the enchanted item then sure, but otherwise I don't think it's really achieving anything.
I don't think "just" is an appropriate word when it's being compared to the guaranteed immediate effect of any AV research action which is: Nothing.

Not a single one of the AV actions we have even guarantees the ability to write a paper, let alone a paper that will inherently be Shattering in its insight.
 
Windherder is very cool, but it's not exactly shattering. Weaving winds together like that is what high magic is all about, and the only restrictions humans have from that is that you cannot route a wind through a soul that has already been imprinted by another without dhar. In theory, multiple mages taking over different parts of a multi wind spell should be possible, windherder is just confirmation.
It's a very important confirmation, but we wouldn't be shattering anyones worldview with it.
 
Windherder is very cool, but it's not exactly shattering. Weaving winds together like that is what high magic is all about, and the only restrictions humans have from that is that you cannot route a wind through a soul that has already been imprinted by another without dhar. In theory, multiple mages taking over different parts of a multi wind spell should be possible, windherder is just confirmation.
It's a very important confirmation, but we wouldn't be shattering anyones worldview with it.
There is the problem, of course, that all the mages involved are seperate people, and High Magic requires exceptional coordination. So uh. Yeah, that's gonna be tricky. Maybe possible in the abstract, but extremely, extremely, difficult.
 
Yeah, I'm less interested in doing things for the "one weird trick that will break their minds" and more interested in the "ooooh, useful!" stuff.

Like, getting a thurible to Rosie for the final attacks on the vampires, target than doing it to try to upend teclesisn magical theory.

But honestly? I'm actually really interested in helping Pan with jade college stuff. It's a chance to learn more about the jade wind, the internal structure and culture of one of the other colleges, and to get a sense of what she knows about waystones already.
 
Yeah, I'm less interested in doing things for the "one weird trick that will break their minds" and more interested in the "ooooh, useful!" stuff.

Like, getting a thurible to Rosie for the final attacks on the vampires, target than doing it to try to upend teclesisn magical theory.

But honestly? I'm actually really interested in helping Pan with jade college stuff. It's a chance to learn more about the jade wind, the internal structure and culture of one of the other colleges, and to get a sense of what she knows about waystones already.

Based on previous statements, the only way we're getting more of a sense of what she knows about waystones is if there's a ring involved in the helping.

(Or whatever the cultural equivalent is.)
 
I think people are doing that thing where the threads instincts and views on a topic really don't match the instincts and views of the characters in the quest.

If windherdering is learnable/teachable. its very much going to be considered a guild secret. it's potentially powerful, dangerous, exclusive, and will give those that use it status and prestige over those that don't know how to use it.

Its either going to be a gey college guild secret or a WEB-MAT guild secret, or a master-apprentice secret:

Its not going to be in mathys instincts to spread it wide, nor would the Grey Patriarch let her. yes, Lords and Ladies are given the room to do what they want usually, and every wizard has the right to their secrets.

but what is very much not a right of every wizard is spreading magical secrets, especially unique, powerful magical skills and spells, without the Patriarchs/Supreme Patriarchs explicit permission. and windherider is powerful enough of a skill set that he would be in his right to come down on its spreading if he made that case.

now that said, I would like to teach it as part of WEB-MAT, that would very much be a recruitment draw and a powerful justification for its existence, and a prestige point.

but we need to remember that it has to be a secret skill, but we can decide what type of secret: gey college secret, WEB-MAT guild secret or master-apprentice.
 
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I don't think "just" is an appropriate word when it's being compared to the guaranteed immediate effect of any AV research action which is: Nothing.

Not a single one of the AV actions we have even guarantees the ability to write a paper, let alone a paper that will inherently be Shattering in its insight.
I mean that's technically true, in the sense that we could have walked up to Thorek and said "any use for this stuff?" And gotten the answer "No, ye daft Umgi lass, it's completely useless to me." But in reality, the AV possibilities are still undefined, but probably not minor.

Windherding is cool, but the initial AP will get us an enchantment and a paper topic. It will not be a line of research by itself, it will start a line of research. Maybe the end of that research will lead to something really cool! But I don't want to start it when we've got other research topics unfinished, so I'm judging it by the immediate results of the first AP, which yes, is just the enchantment itself and a paper.

I also don't think this will be shattering? Elves do this all the time, on their own. Revolutionary, maybe, but what does this tell us about magic beyond "humans working together can mix their magic?"

I think people are doing that thing where the threads instincts and views on a topic really don't match the instincts and views of the characters in the quest.

If windherdering is learnable/teachable. its very much going to be considered a guild secret. it's potentially powerful, dangerous, exclusive, and will give those that use it status and prestige over those that don't know how to use it.

Its either going to be a gey college guild secret or a WEB-MAT guild secret, or a master-apprentice secret:

Its not going to be in mathys instincts to spread it wide, nor would the Grey Patriarch let her. yes, Lords and Ladies are given the room to do what they want usually, and every wizard has the right to their secrets.

but what is very much not a right of every wizard is spreading magical secrets, especially unique, powerful magical skills and spells, without the Patriarchs/Supreme Patriarchs explicit permission. and windherider is powerful enough of a skill set that he would be in his right to come down on its spreading if he made that case.

now that said, I would like to teach it as part of WEB-MAT, that would very much be a recruitment draw and a powerful justification for its existence, and a prestige point.

but we need to remember that it has to be a secret skill, but we can decide what type of secret: gey college secret, WEB-MAT guild secret or master-apprentice.
I disagree that research that inherently requires another College's aid, and is only useful with the help of other Colleges, will be kept from the other Colleges. What would this gain the Grey College?
 
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but we need to remember that it has to be a secret skill, but we can decide what type of secret: gey college secret, WEB-MAT guild secret or master-apprentice.
It's incapable of being a grey college secret. Every use of it requires a mage of another college.

It could be a secret of the Imperial Colleges or of WEB-MAT but it could never be a Master-Apprentice Secret nor a Grey College secret.
 
I'd back Jyn up on this and also remind people that we really *should* be trying to roleplay as someone immersed in the mindset that ulgu requires: Mathilde is not straightforward, because ulgu is schemes and secrets and plots.
 
I disagree that research that inherently requires another College's aid, and is only useful with the help of other Colleges, will be kept from the other Colleges. What would this gain the Grey College?
It's incapable of being a grey college secret. Every use of it requires a mage of another college.

It could be a secret of the Imperial Colleges or of WEB-MAT but it could never be a Master-Apprentice Secret nor a Grey College secret.
It could totally be a Grey College secret.

not that it exists, but how to do it. the same as runesmiths or... well, any of the colleges.

'if you want mix wind projects or enchantments, you have to include the greys' it definitely enough of an advantage to be classified as a guild secret.
 
It's incapable of being a grey college secret. Every use of it requires a mage of another college.

It could be a secret of the Imperial Colleges or of WEB-MAT but it could never be a Master-Apprentice Secret nor a Grey College secret.
We don't know that since we have not taken the option yet but it is very possible other magic users can't figure out without us telling them despite being part of the rituals that supplies other winds. Especially if it is not something that obvious or something that is prepared before they see it etc.
 
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I'd back Jyn up on this and also remind people that we really *should* be trying to roleplay as someone immersed in the mindset that ulgu requires: Mathilde is not straightforward, because ulgu is schemes and secrets and plots.
Self-defeating plots aren't Ulgu, they're Tzeentch.
It could totally be a Grey College secret.

not that it exists, but how to do it. the same as runesmiths or... well, any of the colleges.

'if you want mix wind projects or enchantments, you have to include the greys' it definitely enough of an advantage to be classified as a guild secret.
It'd be a secret that got out every time it was demonstrated to the other participants in its every use. Besides which, why would the Grey College want to be included in its every use? Better to release the knowledge widely (with the note that the only current person capable of such is theirs) and make use of the goodwill garnered to other ends.

The Grey College goes to great lengths to instil not just twistiness but pragmatism and loyalty in its members, and I don't think this fits. Not for an inherently cooperative art, anyway.
 
It'd be a secret that got out every time it was demonstrated to the other participants in its every use.
You are assuming that. Don't make such assumptions and pretend it has been established fact already. You could be totally off base with this.

Like how many times you figure out the code of this site by posting here anyway? Could be like that for all we know.
 
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Windherding is an art all about working together with others to create something greater.

Mathilde is currently starting up the Waystone Project, which is all about getting disparate groups to come together to share information and make more progress than anyone could alone.

Deciding that Windherder needs to be a secret would be taking two steps back for no steps forward, and doesn't seem particularly in character for Mathilde.

I also don't buy for a second that Algard would show up to order Mathilde to keep the skill she developed entirely on her own a secret. You don't become a Patriarch by being that bad at diplomacy.
 
It'd be a secret that got out every time it was demonstrated to the other participants in its every use. Besides which, why would the Grey College want to be included in its every use? Better to release the knowledge widely (with the note that the only current person capable of such is theirs) and make use of the goodwill garnered to other ends.

The Grey College goes to great lengths to instil not just twistiness but pragmatism and loyalty in its members, and I don't think this fits. Not for an inherently cooperative art, anyway.
because that's not how the people in the setting think: guild secrets is the norm.

why would the runesmiths want to be involved everytime runes are used? just teach the basics to every dwarf that can learn it!

why would the brights hord all the best enchantment knowledge? totally not practical.

why should we have to prepare to bend over backwards to get all the colleges to agree to share what they know about waystones? they should just release that knowledge to the wider college.

oh, wait: because it makes them powerful, influational and justifies their existence... just like why every other guild does the same. that's why.
 
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because that's not how the people in the setting think: guild secrets is the norm.

why would the runesmiths want to be involved everytime runes are used? just teach the basics to every dwarf that can learn it!

why would the brights hord all the best enchantment knowledge? totally not practical.

why should we have to prepare to bend over backwards to get all the colleges to agree to share what they know about waystones? they should just release that knowledge to the wider college.

oh, wait: because it makes them powerful, influational and justifies their existence... just like why every other guild does the same. that's why.
That still doesn't adress the problem that windherder is pretty useless if you only have one wind of enchanters who could use it. Even if it works the way that you only need one windherder to direct the others, you need to either choose to cooperate only with subpar enchanters or risk the secret getting out by walking capable enchenters through the process.
 
Like how many times you figure out the code of this site by posting here anyway? Could be like that for all we know.
I think this analogy is incorrect.

Posting on the site is the equivalent of using an item made with windherder.

Helping enchant an item is like being a web developer, and looking through the source code of the page. I don't know how exactly the code was created, but with a bit of time I could figure a lot of it out, and eventually start coding something similar.

Mathilde gave 35 DF to the colleges unprompted. She likes advancing the colleges' knowledge, and having her name on something like this very much fulfils her need for recognition.
 
That still doesn't adress the problem that windherder is pretty useless if you only have one wind of enchanters who could use it. Even if it works the way that you only need one windherder to direct the others, you need to either choose to cooperate only with subpar enchanters or risk the secret getting out by walking capable enchenters through the process.
yes, maybe it will be impossible to keep in the grey house if you can learn by being part of the ritual or enchement, if that's the case, then yes, it cant be a grey college secert

but its also just as possible that you don't need to explain how to do it, and just watching/taking part in a ritual with a windherder is not going to be enough to learn it.

tho this might all be a moot point as it's possible that only mathy/her apprentices will be able to learn.
 
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Ultimately Mathilde (and thus us) will be the one(s) deciding how the knowledge would be disseminated.

Sure that knowledge might or may not be helpful to other wizards - but at least Mathilde's clout is large enough that she'll call the shots and get the credit (thus hopefully leading to a circle of ever increasing clout and credit).
 
Mathilde gave 35 DF to the colleges unprompted. She likes advancing the colleges' knowledge, and having her name on something like this very much fulfils her need for recognition.
40 DF. We did end up shelling out for the Ambers as well as everyone else, which may end up paying dividends if we need to convince them to play ball with us on Waystones.
tho this might all be a moot point as it's possible that only mathy/her apprentices will be able to learn.
Yeah. We're arguing over the fate of the chickens when we haven't tried to hatch the egg yet.

I get that people are bored, but the current state of affairs is that updates come more slowly than they did once upon a time, and as I've said before, overdiscussing our options leads to people getting tired and burnt out on things before we even do them because months and months of circular thread chatter is exhausting. I think this is a large reason why we find ourselves chasing novelty in projects so much and growing our research backlog, because it feels like we've been doing stuff forever even if we actually haven't. So I really think we should just chill with the forward planning, especially when Boney has said that there will be changes to how our actions are structured (in the specific context of half-actions) and we don't yet know how applicable WEBMAT actions will be to various things. If we spend pages arguing about the tradeoffs of different research projects and it results in the thread being sick of all of them and doing something else, we'll feel awfully silly.
 
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