Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Deathbybunnies]

So one of the issues I have with 'handmaidens' (that isn't 'it's not a fucking ringwraith') is the assumption that they would be better assassins.

but assassins need a degree of subtlety and creative thinking, something apparitions are stated to be bad at... not so much as they would be bad at being a lab assistant true, but...

when it comes to turning Red riders into dusk riders, its basically giving them a paint job and giving them a few rules such as 'kill what I want you to kill, not just everything'.

otherwise, the Red riders are basically doing the things they would be doing anyway, 'ride down people' and 'cut people up'.

Handmaiden seems... a little more complicated? more points of failure if it doesn't work just like we want? something like that.

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They might not do anonymous assassinations very well, but they'd be a risk-free way of assassinating targets where you don't care if anyone immediately knows they're dead. Like, for instance, on a battlefield.

I hope that's not a complaint? I mean, the second part of the bonus alone we've used all the time- tireless fast terrain-ignoring travel has been a staggeringly powerful capability from the moment we acquired it.
As for the first bonus:

During Alkharad's assault while escorting Rosie. You can see our Martial bonus at +26 when mounted, +21 when we dismounted to join the remaining (not-so-)Greatswords.

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I believe their intended point was that situations calling for mounted combat just haven't come up much, and aren't likely to be coming up very soon, so prioritising it over other things doesn't make sense.


Overall apparitions are super cool and I do want to make them, but I want to finish our existing projects first rather than perpetually starting new ones. We benefit more from finishing A, B and C than being halfway through A, B, C, D, E and F, and with stuff like AV the finish line is in sight for, possibly, creating Quaysh Powerstones!

EDIT: It's actually just occured to me how relevant this is to the Waystone project. Powerstones work by attracting nearby Winds to them over a wide area. So an all-Winds powerstone, the current leading hypothesis for what subjecting AV to powerstone creation methods will do, is pretty much exactly what we want for a Waystone?

 

[Codex]

They might not do anonymous assassinations very well, but they'd be a risk-free way of assassinating targets where you don't care if anyone immediately knows they're dead. Like, for instance, on a battlefield.


I believe their intended point was that situations calling for mounted combat just haven't come up much, and aren't likely to be coming up very soon, so prioritising it over other things doesn't make sense.


Overall apparitions are super cool and I do want to make them, but I want to finish our existing projects first rather than perpetually starting new ones. We benefit more from finishing A, B and C than being halfway through A, B, C, D, E and F, and with stuff like AV the finish line is in sight for, possibly, creating Quaysh Powerstones!

EDIT: It's actually just occured to me how relevant this is to the Waystone project. Powerstones work by attracting nearby Winds to them over a wide area. So an all-Winds powerstone, the current leading hypothesis for what subjecting AV to powerstone creation methods will do, is pretty much exactly what we want for a Waystone?

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The problem is that it feels like AV is a near inexhaustible supply of actions, which makes sense because it's so full of potential. Just to clear the actions we already have, there's 1 AP for Divine Magic interaction, 1 AP for Enchantment, 1AP for Powerstone testing, 2AP for Powerstone creation process testing (one for the lesson we have to take one for the actual action) and 1 AP for weaponisation. That's 6 AP just to clear out the AV backlog, and this is assuming our actions don't cause new options to pop up. Our rate of clearing them is 1AP per turn, so it would take around 6 turns or so to clear that assuming we don't double up on AP.

My preference is that we spend 2 job actions and do 2 other actions, with 2 actions set for our half AP obligations. The action economy is gonna change though, because I'm p sure since we're losing Johann, Max and Ducklings and replacing it with Library, Research Branch and sticking with EIC means we have 3 half actions rather than 4 making for an imbalance.

 

[Glau]

They are desperate elves, as witness the fact that they allied with the Ulricans and are allowing us access to their long held lore. i think they have made the case of urgency pretty clear in their deeds. More to the point I do not think it is a good look to go into your first day on a job with the mentality of 'well they are normally pretty methodical so we should not do our utmost to make a good impression'. The ball is in our court as the employee and we will be judged by how we play it.

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No, you misunderstand. I'm looking at this from the perspective of 'this is the most relaxed things will ever get' so trying to hit the floor running at 110% in the interests of making a good impression on people who are trying to make a good impression on us is grating. We (and our connections) are the prize that the elves want, not the employee they are evaluating. I would prefer to establish our value.

To put it another way, the ones who are going to be like that are going to take whatever effort we give them, scoff, and demand more regardless of our actual effort, because it's being judged on politics and not merit. I don't know if you've ever had to set boundaries so a job doesn't take over your life before, but starting off as an eager-to-please try hard is NOT going to get us leverage.

Plus I dislike how casual you are about dropping any investment in our girlfriend in favor of people we've not even met yet. I would like to push back against what I see as a poor ordering of priorities.

 

[Shard]

I feel that we have already gotten some of the best possible 'loot drops' from AV: Conversion into Dwarven Favor for Dwarven Runestuff. At that point, what could top that to the point of demanding more AP?

 

[Valmond]

While i am all in on going full Mathilde on the project, no matter who is trying to impress who, i don't think doing so at expense of our girlfriend is necessary.
But we will be going (nearly) all out on this, not because we are trying to impress anyone, but because it generally is what we do.

 

[Romv]

I feel that we have already gotten some of the best possible 'loot drops' from AV: Conversion into Dwarven Favor for Dwarven Runestuff. At that point, what could top that to the point of demanding more AP?

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I may be alone in this - though I doubt it - but research for me isn't about getting 'loot', that's just a nice bonus. Finding out more about AV is its own reward to me, in that it gives us more of Boney's writing and worldbuilding. Even if we don't get anything out of it, I would be more than fine spending AP on it (or anything else for that matter).
This is even the case for things where we know what the result will be (if it works) like Apparition binding. I don't really care that we get bound apparitions out of it that make us a better fighter, I want us to do it because it sounds fun.

 

[DragonParadox]

No, you misunderstand. I'm looking at this from the perspective of 'this is the most relaxed things will ever get' so trying to hit the floor running at 110% in the interests of making a good impression on people who are trying to make a good impression on us is grating. We (and our connections) are the prize that the elves want, not the employee they are evaluating. I would prefer to establish our value.

To put it another way, the ones who are going to be like that are going to take whatever effort we give them, scoff, and demand more regardless of our actual effort, because it's being judged on politics and both merit. I don't know if you've ever had to set boundaries so a job doesn't take over your life before, but starting off as an eager-to-please try hard is NOT going to get us leverage.

Plus I dislike how casual you are about dropping any investment in our girlfriend in favor of people we've not even met yet. I would like to push back against what I see as a poor ordering of priorities.

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I agree with you, the thing is even at our lowest ebb I do not think our time is worth so little as to be spent on this Panoramia will eventually find time to take her exams on her own when she stops procrastinating without a lady magister spending precious time. As for not letting the job take over our life and spending time with our girlfriend that is what social actions are for. Actual proper AP is for doing stuff either on our own like the apparitions or for the job.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

I feel that we have already gotten some of the best possible 'loot drops' from AV: Conversion into Dwarven Favor for Dwarven Runestuff. At that point, what could top that to the point of demanding more AP?

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We're getting Runelords to craft us items because they find it worthwhile to do so for the AV.

If we could use that AV personally that'd almost certainly be a very big boost - as it is we're selling it to Thorek who basically uses it as fuel for his ancient Anvil of Doom because nobody actually knows how to properly use the AV.

 

[Shard]

I may be alone in this - though I doubt it - but research for me isn't about getting 'loot', that's just a nice bonus. Finding out more about AV is its own reward to me, in that it gives us more of Boney's writing and worldbuilding. Even if we don't get anything out of it, I would be more than fine spending AP on it (or anything else for that matter).
This is even the case for things where we know what the result will be (if it works) like Apparition binding. I don't really care that we get bound apparitions out of it that makes us better fighters, I want us to do it because it sounds fun.

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That comes at the 'cost' of all other wordcount from Boney, however.

 

[Romv]

That comes at the 'cost' of all other wordcount from Boney, however.

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If only every cost could be so enjoyable.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

The problem is that it feels like AV is a near inexhaustible supply of actions, which makes sense because it's so full of potential. Just to clear the actions we already have, there's 1 AP for Divine Magic interaction, 1 AP for Enchantment, 1AP for Powerstone testing, 2AP for Powerstone creation process testing (one for the lesson we have to take one for the actual action) and 1 AP for weaponisation. That's 6 AP just to clear out the AV backlog, and this is assuming our actions don't cause new options to pop up. Our rate of clearing them is 1AP per turn, so it would take around 6 turns or so to clear that assuming we don't double up on AP.

My preference is that we spend 2 job actions and do 2 other actions, with 2 actions set for our half AP obligations. The action economy is gonna change though, because I'm p sure since we're losing Johann, Max and Ducklings and replacing it with Library, Research Branch and sticking with EIC means we have 3 half actions rather than 4 making for an imbalance.

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I am somewhat baffled by the stance that we should not spend AP on AV because there's so much we can do with it.

Putting aside Weaponisation, which was a quick-and-dirty option to get immediate use out of AV with minimal investment and that would be a great waste, we're looking at several separate long projects that all happened to share the same starting actions, that we have already half-completed. I disagree strongly with the idea that rather than spend a few AP on each to finish these projects, we should instead embark upon another long project we haven't half-completed. If we had a clear and immediate use for Apparitions I could at least see an argument, but we don't.

I feel that we have already gotten some of the best possible 'loot drops' from AV: Conversion into Dwarven Favor for Dwarven Runestuff. At that point, what could top that to the point of demanding more AP?

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I disagree. We've had a lot of Runesmith favour sitting in our account for a long time, with nothing we wanted to spend it on. It's a good option that we will probably use again at some point, but there are better possibilities here than just making that number go up.

I may be alone in this - though I doubt it - but research for me isn't about getting 'loot', that's just a nice bonus. Finding out more about AV is its own reward to me, in that it gives us more of Boney's writing and worldbuilding. Even if we don't get anything out of it, I would be more than fine spending AP on it (or anything else for that matter).
This is even the case for things where we know what the result will be (if it works) like Apparition binding. I don't really care that we get bound apparitions out of it that makes us better fighters, I want us to do it because it sounds fun.

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I tend to enjoy whatever Boney puts out, but I will admit that I have a soft spot for insights into the fundamental underpinnings of the world, and AV is a unique opportunity to look behind the curtain on magic itself. What could be more exciting for a wizard?

 

[Glau]

I'm still kinda burned out on AV, and we've gotten a lot more interesting glimpses at the secrects of the world from taking to Vlag and the dragons. If the choice is between helping an elf with a thing and establishing them as a character or working on AV, I'll be voting for the elf *because* I like knowing more about the world and it's secrets.

 

[Mopman43]

as it is we're selling it to Thorek who basically uses it as fuel for his ancient Anvil of Doom because nobody actually knows how to properly use the AV.

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If we're being accurate, he's using it to fuel the Ancestor Runes of every Anvil of Doom.

Given the impact those can have (see the Battle of Karag Nar, for example) I don't think it's fair to characterize that as underutilizing it.

(Anybody ever think about how we unwittingly handed quite a bit of political power to Thorek?)

 

[Humbaba]

I feel that we have already gotten some of the best possible 'loot drops' from AV: Conversion into Dwarven Favor for Dwarven Runestuff. At that point, what could top that to the point of demanding more AP?

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I feel like if the only useful thing our extremely clever Wizard Lord can get from study of the uncorrupted and undiffentiated substance of the dimension her powers come from is "give it to someone else" then Mathilde should probably hand her Wizard hat in.

 

[VoiceOfTheRiders]

The problem is that it feels like AV is a near inexhaustible supply of actions, which makes sense because it's so full of potential. Just to clear the actions we already have, there's 1 AP for Divine Magic interaction, 1 AP for Enchantment, 1AP for Powerstone testing, 2AP for Powerstone creation process testing (one for the lesson we have to take one for the actual action) and 1 AP for weaponisation. That's 6 AP just to clear out the AV backlog, and this is assuming our actions don't cause new options to pop up. Our rate of clearing them is 1AP per turn, so it would take around 6 turns or so to clear that assuming we don't double up on AP.

My preference is that we spend 2 job actions and do 2 other actions, with 2 actions set for our half AP obligations. The action economy is gonna change though, because I'm p sure since we're losing Johann, Max and Ducklings and replacing it with Library, Research Branch and sticking with EIC means we have 3 half actions rather than 4 making for an imbalance.

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Last turn we didn't do AV because of the argument that it was worthwhile to have one action to check out the viability of tongs. This turned out to be useful because we then learnt that the tongs were not viable - and thus we could leave it behind. However the only way to get through our backlog is to get through our backlog. Thus we should be finishing long term projects before starting new long term ones (waystones is a separate concern - as it is our current job).
If we think that AV is finished or that we don't need to do every last possible research before finishing it lets have that discussion but lets get AV to a stage where we can say it is done before starting a new long term research.

As an encouragement to not declare AV as finished we will soon be working on the waystones - which among other features work with all the winds: they can drain dhar?, and they send all the winds to the Great Vortex. AV potentially represents the only multiwind source that Mathilde can get a reliable supply of, thus making it useful for initial waystone experimentation.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

If we're being accurate, he's using it to fuel the Ancestor Runes of every Anvil of Doom.

Given the impact those can have (see the Battle of Karag Nar, for example) I don't think it's fair to characterize that as underutilizing it.

(Anybody ever think about how we unwittingly handed quite a bit of political power to Thorek?)

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He was already about as high as a Runelord could get with external help. The only way Thorek can get more status is getting good enough to surpass Kragg.


Also yes, the Anvils of Doom powered by AV are impactful - my problem with them is that they're a Golden Age thing, just like Bok and the Waystone network and we're not going to get even a bit close to the peak of what humans/elves/dwarves did during that time if we use something as revolutionary as the AV merely as fuel.

 

[Mopman43]

He was already about as high as a Runelord could get with external help. The only way Thorek can get more status is getting good enough to surpass Kragg.

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It's not about status, it's about the fact that he's the sole source for other Runelords to recharge their Ancestor Runes, and I don't see a world existing where Thorek isn't taking advantage of that.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

I'm still kinda burned out on AV, and we've gotten a lot more interesting glimpses at the secrects of the world from taking to Vlag and the dragons. If the choice is between helping an elf with a thing and establishing them as a character or working on AV, I'll be voting for the elf *because* I like knowing more about the world and it's secrets.

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...How are you burnt out on AV? We've spent 4 actions on it in 13 turns, half of which were just safety setup/preparation! We haven't touched AV since turn 28! That's literally over a year ago!

Also, comparing AV study to social actions is comparing apples to oranges. Social actions don't cost AP, so they aren't in competition with each other.

(My thanks to @picklepikkl for their big summmary of our time as Loremaster, which made working the actions and times out so much less hassle than it would otherwise have been.)

 

[JaceAoT]

There's also our Arcane Marks to consider.
I think it would be interesting to investigate them.

 

[Shard]

I feel like if the only useful thing our extremely clever Wizard Lord can get from study of the uncorrupted and undiffentiated substance of the dimension her powers come from is "give it to someone else" then Mathilde should probably hand her Wizard hat in.

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We figured out how to convert it into effectively arbitrary amounts of runepower. That's a pretty good outcome in of itself. The beneficial outcomes from taking other actions, like it's use in enchantment, is rather predicated on actually doing enchanting, for example.

 

[BeepSmile]

Regarding WEB-MAT, do people have an opinion on putting those actions straight on to Waystone stuff or if they prefer to look at one or two smaller projects first?

I'm curious about the seed and the arm we got up north, though most of all I want to try make a Serviscope...

It just occurred to me that if we make a semi-portable one, it might be useful to whatever runelords we get on board. Though I'm mainly in it to let Kragg see the runes inside that golem.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

We figured out how to convert it into effectively arbitrary amounts of runepower. That's a pretty good outcome in of itself. The beneficial outcomes from taking other actions, like it's use in enchantment, is rather predicated on actually doing enchanting, for example.

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Sadly, this hasn't quite panned out in practice. We'd been sitting on a great deal of dwarf favour before we headed to Vlag and broke it as a mechanic, and we just didn't have anything we wanted to spend it on. There was talk of maybe runing up a pistol, but we had way more than needed for that and still didn't go for it.

We just don't have things we want to spend it on. The dwarves get great use out of it, but presumably we'd be able to share AV with the Colleges if we find a use for it for Teclisian magic. Hell, if we find a use for it for divine magic, we might be able to get into the good graces of various Cults. And none of these are inherently less deserving than the runesmiths, on the face of it.

 

[Glau]

...How are you burnt out on AV? We've spent 4 actions on it in 13 turns, half of which were just safety setup/preparation! We haven't touched AV since turn 28! That's literally over a year ago!

Also, comparing AV study to social actions is comparing apples to oranges. Social actions don't cost AP, so they aren't in competition with each other.

(My thanks to @picklepikkl for their big summmary of our time as Loremaster, which made working the actions and times out so much less hassle than it would otherwise have been.)

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I'm burnt out on it mostly because of the insistence on doing it the slow, careful, well-documented way made it a slog to get through, especially when the ultimate 'result' was one of the original options. I did not feel like there was payoff. YMMV.

And I'm not comparing a social action with it, I'm comparing an "assist another with their task" option. Social expenditures do not get us material changes, AP does.

@BeepSmile, I like the of idea of setting them to build a seviroscope. On the face of it, it allows a standardization of observation across different ways of sensing magic even before we bring Bok into it.

 

[Shard]

Sadly, this hasn't quite panned out in practice. We'd been sitting on a great deal of dwarf favour before we headed to Vlag and broke it as a mechanic, and we just didn't have anything we wanted to spend it on. There was talk of maybe runing up a pistol, but we had way more than needed for that and still didn't go for it.

We just don't have things we want to spend it on. The dwarves get great use out of it, but presumably we'd be able to share AV with the Colleges if we find a use for it for Teclisian magic. Hell, if we find a use for it for divine magic, we might be able to get into the good graces of various Cults. And none of these are inherently less deserving than the runesmiths, on the face of it.

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There's nothing stopping us from using the Dwarf Favor to get stuff for the Colleges, Empire or our friends. Factories, for example, or runic equipment..

 

[Deathbybunnies]

I'm burnt out on it mostly because of the insistence on doing it the slow, careful, well-documented way made it a slog to get through, especially when the ultimate 'result' was one of the original options. I did not feel like there was payoff. YMMV.

And I'm not comparing a social action with it, I'm comparing an "assist another with their task" option. Social expenditures do not get us material changes, AP does.

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The slow, careful parts are all done though - that's my point. I would agree it would be overkill for just the dwarven result, but it's there for all of them!

Both actions you referred to previously were straight-up social actions. To my knowledge, helping out a fellow councillor has never resulted in anything more than a headpat.

If you're hoping to get introduced to potential social options this way, I'll remind you that our main job for the next 10 turns is going to be meeting and getting in good with exactly these sorts of interesting people.

There's nothing stopping us from using the Dwarf Favor to get stuff for the Colleges, Empire or our friends. Factories, for example, or runic equipment..

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This isn't actually true, they won't make it for other people who they don't trust on our dime, apparently. The Colleges were okay because Matlde is explicitly tied to them IIRC?