Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Simon_Jester]

Except those vices (that dwarves often consider virtues) may be largely what allows them to survive.
Just demanding they turn their whole society upside down is, kinda disrespectful, at best.

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Okay but like...

It's not even about demand, it's about regret for a bad consequence.

There's a difference between saying "the reason the dwarves are dying is bound up in the nature of their glory, and their glory is admirable" and saying "it's good that the dwarves are dying."

 

[Glau]

Why not experiment to see how we can help others wind herd?

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On board. But I don't see how we can take that trait and make it into a staff. I'm grasping for a metaphor here, but, like, this sounds like trying to make a staff of witty reparté somehow. It doesn't apply to solo spellcasting, which is what a staff is a tool *for*.

Unfortunately, we're not quite at the level where I can say that we could survive a trip to the Warp and back.

As far as I know, excluding the End Times and Godly figures, the only person to survive the Warp in canon is Oxyotl.

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Lucky us that we've got in-quest confirmation that the glittering realm isn't in the warp, huh?

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

No, it's not that I think it couldn't be done, it's that I'm unclear what it could be. Like, does it vibrate when the spell you are casting gets too close to another wind, risking Dhar? Is it just a staff that can be used for multiple different winds, if the wizard can use different winds?

A staff is a tool to cast through. How does windherder even apply?

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by creating one, seeing how it works (or doesn't) in practice, and applying that knowledge to the next one.


in my head, it would either be creating a medium for new or added effects, or it could have a preloaded shadow spell.

but again, we need to actually do something with windherding, anything, to see how it works in practice.

the main argument we have been having with windherder is that people don't want to experiment with it over doing stuff with more known results (that bloody robe argument.)

 

[NeonLights]

You could enchant a spell into a staff, and possibly even have Mathilde use it in conjunction with a spell of her own. I don't know how Windherder works with Battlemagic, but there's FCs who can come close enough.

 

[Glau]

by creating one, seeing how it works (or doesn't) in practice, and applying that knowledge to the next one.


in my head, it would either be creating a medium for new or added effects, or it could have a preloaded shadow spell.

but again, we need to actually do something with windherding, anything, to see how it works in practice.

the main argument we have been having with windherder is that people don't want to experiment with it over doing stuff with more known results (that bloody robe argument.)

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But for windherding to apply you'd need a second wind? That's what I keep getting hung up on. I don't know how 'just build one' works when I'm running under the assumption that windherding requires at least two wizards, and staves can only be held by one at a time. I'm cool with building it as soon as I have a coherent idea of what we are trying to build.

Maybe something like squeezing the spells that are cast through it down into a metaphysically smaller size so you can have more different winds in the same general space more easily?

Maybe something like a windsight enhancer of some sort? Like a compressed seviroscope that gives better sensitivity or a point of compare/contrast for the casting wizard?

Idk. It's like saying "we are going to build a funny bridge", me asking "how do you make a bridge funny?" And you replying "idk, build it and we'll see what funny looks like in a bridge."

I'm still trying to think through your more concrete examples, but 'medium for new or added effects' seems suspiciously close to discount high magic, except done with an artificial soul running the shadow magic part.

 

[Sparsebeard]

Like i said, the hatchet is buried, but the relations have not been reset to a blank slate.
Creating anything new will have to be done in the shadow of that history.

The Dwarfs unforgiving nature and elven arrogance are not particularly conducive to reconciliation.

Idk if you've read Imrix's Paradox of choice, but in that quest, the possibility of elf-dwarf reconciliation by blaming the dark elves is brought up. But to even start the process on the right track we needed to capture a black arc, a geological survey to prove that the Sundering happened when it did, and get multiple dwarf kings as witness.
Not an easy proposition even when you are the phoenix king.

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I wouldn't base my suppositions on another quest (that I've not read).

I agree that there is a lot of resentement. Still, shifting the blame would not really be my favored option. I feel dwarves would be more receptive to favors granted and help given freely. Just as grudges need to be repaid, so do favors.

But yeah, let's actually interact with more than a few elves before we judge their general character and make plans.

The only thing I'm pretty sure is that Elves, not Dwarves, are gonna have to be the ones making gestures for reconcilliation to be possible. Whether or not there are enough of them interrested to make the effort and what level of political pull they have in their polities remain to be seen.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

But for windherding to apply you'd need a second wind? That's what I keep getting hung up on. I don't know how 'just build one' works when I'm running under the assumption that windherding requires at least two wizards, and staves can only be held by one at a time. I'm cool with building it as soon as I have a coherent idea of what we are trying to build.

Maybe something like squeezing the spells that are cast through it down into a metaphysically smaller size so you can have more different winds in the same general space more easily?

Maybe something like a windsight enhancer of some sort? Like a compressed seviroscope that gives better sensitivity or a point of compare/contrast for the casting wizard?

Idk. It's like saying "we are going to build a funny bridge", me asking "how do you make a bridge funny?" And you replying "idk, build it and we'll see what funny looks like in a bridge."

I'm still trying to think through your more concrete examples, but 'medium for new or added effects' seems suspiciously close to discount high magic, except done with an artificial soul running the shadow magic part.

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But that's how you start something new, just do it, be ready to fail the first go, and then us that knowledge to actually get somewhere.

trying to go into windherder enchanting with 'an idea How it will work' is a trap. We don't have any idea until we make something. It's new.

 

[Copperscale]

I wouldn't base my suppositions on another quest (that I've not read).

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Not expecting anything in another quest to have an impact on this one... I just think it's a good example of what kind of deeds it would take to get meaningful reconciliation between Ulthuan and Karaz Ankor.

And you should give it a read, it's pretty awesome and memorable. One of my favorite bits has Tyrion murderblendering, told from his POV. Pretty epic

Edit: reread that bit ... Tyrion is a complete lunatic, adrenalin junky with a hobby for slaughter.

 

[Glau]

Ok, wait, I think I might get it.

1) create a staff with a bound ulgu spell in it.
2) tune it so a second wind can be channeled through it without that wind touching the bound ulgu work and creating Dhar.

Is that the idea?

Because I also don't see how it is possible to create something that we don't know what it is so we can find out what it is after we've built it works either.

"Go build an antigrav machine, and figure out how to do antigrav by looking at the machine you just built" doesn't work for me. It's pulling knowledge out of thin air.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Ok, wait, I think I might get it.

1) create a staff with a bound ulgu spell in it.
2) tune it so a second wind can be channeled through it without that wind touching the bound ulgu work and creating Dhar.

Is that the idea?

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that was one of the ideas, yes.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Ok, wait, I think I might get it.

1) create a staff with a bound ulgu spell in it.
2) tune it so a second wind can be channeled through it without that wind touching the bound ulgu work and creating Dhar.

Is that the idea?

Because I also don't see how it is possible to create something that we don't know what it is so we can find out what it is after we've built it works either.

"Go build an antigrav machine, and figure out how to do antigrav by looking at the machine you just built" doesn't work for me. It's pulling knowledge out of thin air.

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because that's what inventing is all about?

you have an idea based off something novel you found out, you start researching stuff, you then start putting stuff together, it doesn't work, you look at what went wrong, do some more research or build the tool you needed the first time but now know you need, build the thing again, it doesn't work, you look at what went wrong etc etc.

"Go build an antigrav machine, and figure out how to do antigrav by looking at the machine you just built" is want the wright brothers did.

 

[agumentic]

because that's what inventing is all about?

you have an idea based off something novel you found out, you start researching stuff, you then start putting stuff together, it doesn't work, you look at what went wrong, do some more research or build the tool you needed the first time but now know you need, build the thing again, it doesn't work, you look at what went wrong etc etc.

"Go build an antigrav machine, and figure out how to do antigrav by looking at the machine you just built" is want the wright brothers did.

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Wright brothers had a pretty solid idea of what they wanted to build, how would they go about building it and how it would work. And indeed, we had a couple of windherding ideas in a similar vein. "Windherder staff" is much too vague to be one of them.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Wright brothers had a pretty solid idea of what they wanted to build, how would they go about building it and how it would work. And indeed, we had a couple of windherding ideas in a similar vein. "Windherder staff" is much too vague to be one of them.

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its really not.

Mathy has made staffs before, she knows that theory and practice behind them.

sticking another wind into them, or making it so that another wind can go through it without crossing channels. isn't a brand, brand new idea. just adding a part to a well established.

hell, even the most boring outcome, (if its even the outcome) is a preloaded spell, that at its most basic is 'this part of the enrichment doesn't touch that part.

 

[kingreaper]

its really not.

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Okay, say folks vote for "make a windherded staff"

Now Boney is forced to decide what Mathilde actually tries to make. Does she make a staff with an inbuilt off-wind enchantment? If so, which enchantment? Does she make a multiwind staff like the staff of Volans? Does she make a staff that adds Ulgu elements to whatever is cast through it?

The players are supposed to decide those sort of big-picture things, not the QM.

 

[065tdsa]

Windherding requires particular manipulations of Ulgu (the only wind Mathilde is legally allowed to manipulate) in ways that affect other winds. Manipulations of Ulgu as a category include but are not limited to codified spells. The Staff of Mistery assists with the casting of a particular subset of Ulgu spells. In practice a Windherder staff would be a staff that boosts or assists those manipulations that Mathilde carries out in order to windherd.

I don't think we've ever used windherding to do much, but if we did presumably the staff would help. Not very interesting right now, when we have nothing in particular we want to do with windherding.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Okay, say folks vote for "make a windherded staff"

Now Boney is forced to decide what Mathilde actually tries to make. Does she make a staff with an inbuilt off-wind enchantment? If so, which enchantment? Does she make a multiwind staff like the staff of Volans? Does she make a staff that adds Ulgu elements to whatever is cast through it?

The players are supposed to decide those sort of big-picture things, not the QM.

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... i mean, boney has very, very purposely not told us how windherdering enchantments will work in practice until we actually take the first AP action for it.

so we swing back to try making it to see how it works.

so in this case, yes.

 

[kingreaper]

... i mean, boney has very, very purposely not told us how windherdering enchantments will work in practice until we actually take the first AP action for it.

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Ummm, have you missed the Dammerlichtreiter's Thurible etc.?

Boney has given us very clear guidance on what we can TRY TO do with windherding. We don't know for sure if it'll work, although we have good reason to believe the approved examples will, but Boney's been very clear that we should vote for a specific enchantment not for "windherd something".

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Ummm, have you missed the Dammerlichtreiter's thurible etc.?

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I made that, so yes.

And that was after a long argument with BoneyM, were they got mad at me for pointing at this for details about how windherdering works.

so, again, Boney has said that we won't know the details about wondering until we try it.
We have to make those first attempts.

 

[GrimTheMad]

I made that, so yes.

And that was after a long argument with BoneyM, were they got mad at me for pointing at this for details about how windherdering works.

so, again, Boney has said that we won't know the details about wondering until we try it.
We have to make those first attempts.

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Then let's make those first attempts with something where we at least know what a positive outcome looks like.

Like obviously I'm up for doing literally anything with Windherder, but I'd really prefer it be something with a solid goal.

 

[kingreaper]

I made that, so yes.

And that was after a long argument with BoneyM, were they got mad at me for pointing at this for details about how windherdering works.

so, again, Boney has said that we won't know the details about wondering until we try it.
We have to make those first attempts.

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We have to attempt specific things. We have to vote for what we're trying to achieve, not some vague category.

"Windherded staff" just like "Windherded item" or "invent a spell" isn't a specific thing.

 

[Tasoli]

Hey hey hey, before you get in to winherding I would like to remind we have worthier projects, like apparation binding.

Shadow riders is waiting for us;

Spoiler: pic

 

[Xilentxium]

Not expecting anything in another quest to have an impact on this one... I just think it's a good example of what kind of deeds it would take to get meaningful reconciliation between Ulthuan and Karaz Ankor.

And you should give it a read, it's pretty awesome and memorable. One of my favorite bits has Tyrion murderblendering, told from his POV. Pretty epic

Edit: reread that bit ... Tyrion is a complete lunatic, adrenalin junky with a hobby for slaughter.

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Seconding this, I love the fact that the difference between Tyrion's success and failure is whether or not he ends up a sole survivor of the High Elf forces.

His title of Blossom of Perfected Violence has never felt so apt.

 

[GrimTheMad]

Hey hey hey, before you get in to winherding I would like to remind we have worthier projects, like apparation binding.

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Apparition binding is also cool, but I wouldn't consider it 'worthier'.

Apparition binding is something already done by at least one other college, while Windherder is something brand new that's considered outright impossible by the general theories of magic that the Colleges as a whole operate on.

Windherder is also more likely to be immediately useful, with regards to the Waystone project.

 

[Derpmind]

Some have complicated interactions with specific spells that require someone that actually knows the Wind, but Mathilde has a solid enough base in magical theory and interactions that she could make a more general purpose staff for any Wind and tailor it to the recipient.

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Neat! That's significantly better than when I asked about making non-Ulgu staffs for other wizards. (Eleven months ago.) I guess Mathilde's understanding of other winds has improved since then.

Mathilde applied her own insight into the nature of Ulgu into making her staff. She'd be theoretically capable of doing so for other Winds, but it's like a musician making their own instrument vs the same musician making an instrument they've never played and can never play. They'd have the theoretical knowledge, but none of the first-hand experience.

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[Deathbybunnies]

Obligatory reminder that if we keep starting new projects, we'll never reap the promised rewards of actually finishing them, i.e. the reason we want to do them in the first place. AV is right there, tantalisingly close to the finish line!