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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Alliterate said:
Dwarven Afterlife - kicking back on an Old One ship, shielded from the Warp(?)
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I've edited as I went, but I think it's actually closer to an Old One holo-deck or VR sim, probably meant to keep them from growing bored as the ship traversed space.

And if it's at all customizable... Well, I can see why Gazul would have yoinked it for the dwarves, given the hostility of the warp to them.
 
Alliterate said:
On this note- we might well find a good use for the Vlag Transcendent Boon if we look outside Mathildes' narrow self interests, and towards things a returned, radical Vlag might be able to do for the good of the Karaz Ankor and/or Dawi wellbeing. Things within their grasp, but that they might not dedicate themselves to without that impetus.
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I was thinking that maybe we could prompt them to start trading some of their lesser runecraft that apparently a third of the hold are capable of creating with the Empire. It's not master-crafted weaponry or armor or anything, but even minor Runes can be pretty damn useful in large numbers. Maybe even get the EIC a monopoly on it.

At least, assuming their new egalitarianism combined with Mathilde's boon would allow them to set aside the usual need for favor trading. Then again, even if Vlag was willing that might piss off the entire rest of the Karaz Ankor against Mathilde...
 
Karak Vlag embraced the distribution of petty runelore because it was necessary for survival, not because they really wanted to stick it to the man or because of an ideological belief in quantity over quality. And now that they're free from the tyranny of subsistence they're not going to want to leap into being assembly lines churning out Ikea-brand Runelamps, coming to a trading post near you.

And trying to profit off Karak Vlag committing what most Dwarves would consider heresy would not be a super great way to make friends.
 
BoneyM said:
Karak Vlag embraced the distribution of petty runelore because it was necessary for survival, not because they really wanted to stick it to the man or because of an ideological belief in quantity over quality. And now that they're free from the tyranny of subsistence they're not going to want to leap into being assembly lines churning out Ikea-brand Runelamps, coming to a trading post near you.

And trying to profit off Karak Vlag committing what most Dwarves would consider heresy would not be a super great way to make friends.
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Yeah, that was pretty much what I expected. It was just the first thing that came to my mind when I heard "lots of Runesmiths, little else" as their potential assets.
 
Guys, using a Transcendent Favor to get Vlag rune-novices to teach us Runesmithing is not free ride to runesmith knowledge. By which I mean, it is not free of consequences.

Namely, that even if Karak Vlag were willing to teach us the knowledge... ... Think of what effect it would have on Dwarf politics and Religion. The "mix of religion, politics, and guild dispute and schism" as Thorek put the whole thing.

Think of what the rest of the Karaz Ankor, and the Cult of Thungni, would think if we used our Transcendent Favor to get the Karak Vlag Dwarfs to teach us runesmith knowledge.

They would be pissed. Pissed at us, for using our closeness to Dwarfs and to Karak Vlag in order to get knowledge that we did not deserve all the while knowing how much such knowledge is valued to the Dwarfs due to our expertise of Dwarf culture -- because in their eyes, you have to do things properly when it comes to Guild knowledge and ancient tradition; and this would not be proper; you don't just ask for secret religious Mystery Cult knowledge to be revealed as a reward, you join a Guild or Cult and work to become worthy of it and you work in the channels of accepted Dwarf society for it -- and it might probably shoot-in-the-foot any hopes the Cult of Thungni or regular Dwarfs might have had, of hopefully getting the Vlag rune-novices to play by the rules or mores of broader Dwarf culture.

It might be a "shortcut" to runic knowledge.

But it would piss off a lot of Dwarfs. And it would make things harder between Karak Vlag and the Cult of Thungni. And it would make things harder between Mathilde and the Cult of Thungni.

At a time when we are hoping to rely on Dwarf Runesmiths and Runelords to come help us with the Eonir Waystone project!

And, ultimately? We would not even learn a hell of a lot. Because those are APPRENTICE Runesmiths. How much knowledge would they even have? What would we even do with that knowledge? And would it be worth the political and religious upheaval, and pissing off the Cult of Thungni at Mathilde? And making Eonir-Runesmith cooperation harder?
 
BoneyM said:
Karak Vlag embraced the distribution of petty runelore because it was necessary for survival, not because they really wanted to stick it to the man or because of an ideological belief in quantity over quality. And now that they're free from the tyranny of subsistence they're not going to want to leap into being assembly lines churning out Ikea-brand Runelamps, coming to a trading post near you.

And trying to profit off Karak Vlag committing what most Dwarves would consider heresy would not be a super great way to make friends.
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Did the same proliferation happen to any other trades?
 
So something that's been on my mind.

I would not mind checking the Library of Mournings to see if we could find some old records of the settlements of the Belthani or Scythians (can't remember which was near the Enior. )

logically, even if the elves didn't care about the humans, the Enoir scouts of the time would have kept track of and sent messages back home about settlements and movements, for security reasons. knowing what towns or areas were proto-Belthani/Scythian might help with the long journey of tracking their descendants. (e.g if a group of hedgewise are claiming to be the heirs of Belthani cults, and the location checks or doesn't, that would be helpful to know.)

and... well.. elf-zoologists... might have been interested in studying these new creatures. it would be weird reading, but you never know what might turn up as useful. (e.g an elf writing down that they observed burial habits one day might be used to locate a tomb, or a description of a ritual might prove a connection to a local modern cult or sect, etc.)

Irl, you would be surprised what we found hidden away by studying the writing of people that were not even talking about that subject.

It's a long shot, and they probably won't be instant 'here is your answer' stuff. but such things might actually be recorded in that library, and be at least a small puzzle piece.
 
Byzantine said:
I've edited as I went, but I think it's actually closer to an Old One holo-deck or VR sim, probably meant to keep them from growing bored as the ship traversed space.

And if it's at all customizable... Well, I can see why Gazul would have yoinked it for the dwarves, given the hostility of the warp to them.
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Either way. I don't see a core difference between 'neat Old One Ship' and 'specific part of that ship'.

But regardless of the specific details, it's an interesting construct to imagine.

Picture a possibly abandoned, or automated Warp-traversing(?) Old One ship. Hanging around in Warp/Space.
Perhaps some relationship exists between the Aethyr, and the 'radiance of space' that Dragons can tolerate but the Old Ones needed ships for.

Around about the times the Old Ones disappear, Grimnir is Dragonslaying, maybe Thungni goes Aethyr-spelunking/spacewalking and finds the ship in Warpspace. He learns some cool Old One tech/reality hax commands, with which he creates/brings back Runelore.
BoneyM said:
Thungni discovered it, and the secrets he found are held sacred by the Runelords. But Gazul of the Flame conquered it, and severed it from the rest of the Aethyr.
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Then Gazul is like 'that is cool, me and my sword are gonna conquer it from Old One servitors' or occupying Daemons or whatever, learns a few more Old One Runetechs, activates the Warpjump Drive back to Reality and claims the ship as the Glittering Realm/sweet bachelor pad.
Adopted families and their polycules are all well and good, but sometimes a brooding goth Ancestor God of the Dead needs some privacy and alonetime.
 
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Briefvoice said:
I guess in smithing or engineering or something, but really I don't think anyone in the thread is going to get too excited about the ancient Karag Vlag secret of improved metal fittings making a comeback. For Runecraft, anyone who knew it in the Beforetimes is definitely dead.
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Straight up that's what the post I was replying to was talking about though. Things That Aren't Runecraft.
 
Its pretty much given the new hold would trade with Kislev as the nearest city. They will be soon swamped with gold and silver.

Regarding iron and steel, as they are quite limited at it, id recon what they have they'd be very high quality.

Also.. stone tools. Id recon they have very good stone and mason expert there, as demonstrated by the stone bench and tankard. I wonder if things went long enough, they will got modern ceramic material such as ceramic knive and body armor.

Finaly.. the offer of 'hospitality'. This, above others, give hope. The joke about a duty to spread the seed and procreate, is no joke amongs Dwarves. We might be seeing the birth of a dwarven resurgence here.

If Kazador ever make a diplomatic visit, they can share notes on how to make elite army, also he might donate some of his 'gene of awesomeness' into the genepool there.
 
So given the revelation that Vlag will not sell minor runes that leaves us with even less we could ask for by way of boon. I mean they are an Old Hold and their vaults never fell which means they are fabulously wealthy by any human standard, but they are going to need that wealth to rebuild, especially in the wake of traditionalists giving them the cold shoulder. I do not feel comfortable asking them for anything they would have to pour gold into like I don't know, an airship.

On the other hand we cannot leave the boon hang indefinitely, a few years is fine but it will eventually start to weigh on them. With that in mind I think we should pay close attention and see what kind of local specificity they may gain, what kind of trade contacts they get and try to leverage that. Like maybe ask them to leverage a ice witch or hag for the Waystone Project through their contacts in Kislev. It's not much from where we are standing, but should be enough to get it off their chest.
 
Garlak said:
... What if this is the sort of thing that the Daemons, that Chaos, were hoping for? That is: a radical enough shock to the Karaz Ankor, that could hurt their culture or unity.
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You forgot the first step of this line of reasoning: explain why enforcing cultural conformity and unity is a good thing.

Why should everyone stick with a monarchy, or with a cultural system dominated by bitter old longbeards a continent away?

And of course, we can see that cultural and political diversity have their own resilience against shocks. None of this "one battle against pink slayers will psychologically gut the entire Karaz Ankor in the middle of a war" bullshit should be possible in a healthy culture, IMO. The next Everchosen might make the Estalians weep by revealing that their national hero is Tilean, but the other human polities will just keep doing their thing, creating new armies and Guilds and seeing what works. Similarly, while the Dwarf setup is fairly good at preserving knowledge, it seems quite bad at disseminating it or fostering cooperative R&D: if they had some cultural diversity going on like everyone else, surely they'd have some polities which would turn out better at those things, without the weaknesses of the Karaz Ankor!
And of course, the process of enforcing "unity" is generally nasty.

tl;dr: If Vlag wants to do kickflips, that's Vlag's business. Enforcing "unity" has downsides, and feels bad.
 
DragonParadox said:
So given the revelation that Vlag will not sell minor runes that leaves us with even less we could ask for by way of boon. I mean they are an Old Hold and their vaults never fell which means they are fabulously wealthy by any human standard, but they are going to need that wealth to rebuild, especially in the wake of traditionalists giving them the cold shoulder. I do not feel comfortable asking them for anything they would have to pour gold into like I don't know, an airship.

On the other hand we cannot leave the boon hang indefinitely, a few years is fine but it will eventually start to weigh on them. With that in mind I think we should pay close attention and see what kind of local specificity they may gain, what kind of trade contacts they get and try to leverage that. Like maybe ask them to leverage a ice witch or hag for the Waystone Project through their contacts in Kislev. It's not much from where we are standing, but should be enough to get it off their chest.
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The rune pokers show understanding, if not institutional knowledge. Having their contribution to the Waystone project may open some doors.

And not selling runes does not mean they won't do a runic infrastructure project. Theres a difference between building a lit highway out of a debt of gratitude and making thousands of runic flashlights to sell.
 
Alliterate said:
On this note- we might well find a good use for the Vlag Transcendent Boon if we look outside Mathildes' narrow self interests, and towards things a returned, radical Vlag might be able to do for the good of the Karaz Ankor and/or Dawi wellbeing. Things within their grasp, but that they might not dedicate themselves to without that impetus.
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We only need to spend boons on things that aren't to the benefit if the Karaz Ankor. Otherwise they'll just trust Mathilde's judgement and do the thing, so long as we don't abuse that.

Alliterate said:
Perhaps some relationship exists between the Aethyr, and the 'radiance of space' that Dragons can tolerate but the Old Ones needed ships for.
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That's probably just regular radiation, which in space isn't blocked by an ozone layer.
 
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veekie said:
The rune pokers show understanding, if not institutional knowledge. Having their contribution to the Waystone project may open some doors.

And not selling runes does not mean they won't do a runic infrastructure project. Theres a difference between building a lit highway out of a debt of gratitude and making thousands of runic flashlights to sell.
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Expecting them to be able to help with the waystones seems unreasonably optimistic. It is asking the guy who can just about make a light bulb to help fix your hydroelectric dam. Also no one needs a lit highway and the only ones who would benefit from that in the empire are the beastmen who would steal everything down to bedrock

A runic lantern is a flashlight, useful as a trade good, a lot less useful if you have to mortar is in place,
 
Ekzentric Lohner said:
One place the rune lights would be great is in libraries. A light source that doesn't put all those flammable books at risk is a good thing there.
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Presumably Belegar would already be shelling out for that. Granted, he might be going to Vlag to do it, if he can manage it without too much political backlash since it would probably cost a whole lot less than asking Thorek's apprentice swarm or one of the guilds. Especially if they hear that it's in aid of paying a debt to Mathilde, and a very similar one to theirs. On the other hand, that would mean convincing a fair number of their people to leave the Karak, so...
 
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