Sigmar saw a big warhammer, and was like, 'aw yes, a huge fuckoff deadly warhammer, JUST like Ulric, huzzah, Ulric'
... huh ... humans, am I right?

Nah, it's just a weird but working sentence. 'A working' is conceptually like a spell, a casting, or otherwise, but could also be considered as 'a beating' as well.
That is news to me. Then again, it's english. Can't say I'm suprised to learned that.

You're helping me, is what you're doing. Thanks a bunch.
Ya'r welcomed.

Weird question: What is dwarfs stance on Afros? Imagine a Longplait with an afro....
It would be a Sight
 
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Mmm....not sure if it'd be a thing for them. It's about fullness and length. Male dwarfs have to wrap their beards around a dwarf woman's waist, the more times, it affects the dowry to pay, and that sort of thing. Actual, determinative length is a real thing for status amongst dwarfs, having to loop beard multiple times or form multiple plaits and braids. An afro really wouldn't work like that. You can have curly hair, straight hair, whatever, but it needs to be long and full.
 
Ulric's has two mythic weapons, one of which is a warhammer. The other is Blitzbeil, his axe, but a lot of his artwork also involves him using a hammer including against the Gods of Chaos. Big ol' shrines have him with the warhammer.

Sigmar saw a big warhammer, and was like, 'aw yes, a huge fuckoff deadly warhammer, JUST like Ulric, huzzah, Ulric'
Makes sense, after all Sigmar was a devote Ulrician before he ascended to godhood so in a way he just copied his own god's favored weapon and the hammer that the Ironbeard gave him just fit well. Could have easily been an axe too if that was what the high king at the time was using, and that could have been Sigmar's holy symbol.

On a related note, I do love how a common snub to Sigmarites by Ulricians is that Sigmar was Ulric's greatest champion, so that obviously means that Ulric is the more important god since it was only due to his support that Sigmar forged the Empire, lol.

They don't deny Sigmar's feats and godhood, I'm sure he is well-respected in cult as former champion of Wolf god, but they merely believe that means he is subordinate to him, which pisses off Sigmarites to even consider thinking about, lol. :p
 
There's definitely some Ulricans who say so, but there are also others who do in fact deny that Sigmar is a God, merely a champion of Ulric being falsely raised higher than he should be. It's one thing to be a Venerated Soul of Ulric, another to suddenly be declared a God.
 
Wait, that leaves me needing to ask: do dwarves, halflings, elves, and other such races have their own distinct racial groups like humans (beyond political divisions of dark vs high elves and equivalents) or do they all look pretty much Caucasian+?
 
Mmm....not sure if it'd be a thing for them. It's about fullness and length. Male dwarfs have to wrap their beards around a dwarf woman's waist, the more times, it affects the dowry to pay, and that sort of thing. Actual, determinative length is a real thing for status amongst dwarfs, having to loop beard multiple times or form multiple plaits and braids. An afro really wouldn't work like that. You can have curly hair, straight hair, whatever, but it needs to be long and full.

Why *are* beards so significant to Dwarves in Warhammer anyway? Is it "just" a measure of how old/experienced you are, only significant because Dwarves value elders? Or is it something else?
 
Wait, that leaves me needing to ask: do dwarves, halflings, elves, and other such races have their own distinct racial groups like humans (beyond political divisions of dark vs high elves and equivalents) or do they all look pretty much Caucasian+?

Some art appears to have darker skinned dwarfs and halflings now and again, but that could be ascribed to tans and the like, potentially. Or not! It's harder for physiological differences to show up as a result of phenotype evolution over time when you don't really have as high a reproductive drive and pregnancy/birth cycle as a human does, I guess. Thousands of generations of humans could be like, just a hundred generations of elves, or even less than that. Elves were created and popped up specifically on Ulthuan as their main place, and afterwards had some colonies here and there, but the crafting of the Old Ones bypassed a lot of the sort of generational changes and divergences that would be found IRL in human ancestors and the like. Same for dwarfs. There's been no evidence that the southern dwarf clans and holds closest to the Southlands are inherently darker skinned or whatever.

Like, racial issues between different shades of white were one thing in Europe, then they encountered Africa and Asia more regularly and widely, and then...yeah. But Elves are, literally, as a whole race and existence, completely cognizant of arising on Ulthuan and they never have, and never will, encounter a 'different' racial group of elves because they simply can't. There's no such thing as a European elf traveling to America and encountering 'strange savage American' elves utterly different to their 'civilized European' culture and race and sensibilities, or strange differently colored African elves, or any of the kind of tensions and 'otherness' that humans have for each other. The 'different groups' between the elves, Asur, Druchii, Asrai, and Eonir, all originated from Ulthuan. And more than that, those separations occurred after thousands of years of cultural continuity and unity amongst the 'elves' as a group. It would be like the British Empire doing all their colonizing, except that there aren't any natives in these colonized lands that are themselves also elves. There is not an Indian subcontinent of elves that do not wish to be colonized. There are no Native Americans who wish the Pilgrims to leave.

There is just the elves of the British Empire. Do you get what I mean?

Same thing for the dwarfs. They remember the Ancestor Gods raising them up, their pinnacles, doing their things, and then after the Ancestor Gods who ruled and ran things for longer than any other human civilization ever existed in continuity ever, they had some people head outwards...and still pay homage to the High King. Or not, in the case of the Norse Dwarfs, who's last 'higher power' was literally God/Jesus/Holy Spirit personified. But they were still part of that single, linked, continuing civilization, people, culture, race, etc.

It's a wholly different existence from humanity in that regard. Humans of the Empire can go oh wow, the Cathayans look sort of like us, but are not quite us, but are human like us, same with the Southlanders, and the Indan peoples, and Khuresh, and Nippon, and even sort of maybe those Bretonnians!

Elves go 'yes, those are elves, like we are elves, it's literally only been five thousand years what are you talking about 'different racial groups'? Is this some kind of inferior human concept and issue that we are too superior to understand'?

Even the Chaos Dwarfs do not regard themselves as a different racial group, not really. They regard themselves as the true dwarfs, certainly, they're dwarf supremacists but only their specific flavor of dwarf, but it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with religion. That religion happens to cause physical mutations and alterations, but that's not the issue so much as the purely religious difference.

Lizardmen don't have different racial groups, they're pre-programmed meat robots that are spawned in accordance with space-time scheduling as put down by the Old Ones from their pools into clearly defined castes and designs meant for specific purposes. Differences in coloration are specifically a matter of blessings from the Old Ones, which is which depending on the color and the like.

At the end of the day, it was a game designed by British people a long, long time ago, or so I hear.

Humanity has racial groups.

Other races have groups based upon doctrine, religion, course, and cause, but nothing specifically biological inherently differentiating them disregarding stuff like Hashut/Chaos mutations, Dhar affectation, and the wiggly symbiotic relationship between Wood Elves and nature.

Why *are* beards so significant to Dwarves in Warhammer anyway? Is it "just" a measure of how old/experienced you are, only significant because Dwarves value elders? Or is it something else?

Because they are, it seems. It just does. Ingrained pride, appreciation/regard for a physical appearance part, and while it seems like male dwarfs can indeed go bald, they are naturally inclined to grow big beards. For dwarfs, hair clearly does not thin upon aging like it does for humans. It's a different follicle situation entirely. The Ancestor Gods were the best of the best, they were the oldest, the culture of the dwarfs was set down to venerate elders, beard or hair length is quick identifier of age and grows more enshrined and culturally important as well. A good dwarf keeps their hair groomed and well-tended, a bad dwarf can't handle that much. The sheer sight of a truly magnificent beard can literally improve morale amongst dwarfs. In Total War Warhammer, a pure-beard option is a beard that is so pure and magnificent and well-kept that it actively reduces the corruption of skaven or Chaos in a province, available to all dwarf lords. When they talk about the White Dwarf in Warhammer, one of the things that repeatedly comes up is that oh, man, his huge thick long magnificent white beard is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo amazing, all dwarfs are forced to acknowledge its greatness and feel heartened by it and inspired and woooooooooooooo.
 
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It's a wholly different existence from humanity in that regard. Humans of the Empire can go oh wow, the Cathayans look sort of like us, but are not quite us, but are human like us, same with the Southlanders, and the Indan peoples, and Khuresh, and Nippon, and even sort of maybe those Bretonnians!
Hehe, I love how you ended this with 'maybe' in regards to the Brets. :p
Other races have groups based upon doctrine, religion, course, and cause, but nothing specifically biological inherently differentiating them disregarding stuff like Hashut/Chaos mutations, Dhar affectation, and the wiggly symbiotic relationship between Wood Elves and nature.
Hmmm, what about halflings and ogres? They live longer than humans, but not by much, only like a little over a century and a half at best outside of magical life extensions, so better odds of more generations as a whole causing changes over time.

We see Cathay Ogres and even Nippon ogres having some biological differences, but from what you explained before that was due to influence of outside magical sources so would that not count?

Halflings seemed to have always followed the folk that would later inhabit Old World/Empire, so no major population of them outside of it as far as we know, so likely don't count either since pretty singular culture wise.
 
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Hmmm, what about halflings and ogres? They live longer than humans, but not by much, only like a little over a century and a half at best outside of magical life extensions.

We see Cathay Ogres and even Nippon ogres having some biological differences, but from what you explained before that was due to influence of outside magical sources so would that not count?

Halflings seemed to have always followed the folk that would later inhabit Old World/Empire, so no major population of them outside of it as far as we know, so likely don't count either since pretty singular culture wise.

Halflings as far as I can tell straight up just were a single weirdo group that ended up following the proto-Imperials into slaughtering their way there, accompanying them into taking over swathes of the future lands of the Empire. Dwarf records made note of them, at least. They were just kind of there, and were a menace enough that Queen Freya! Destroyer of the Redmaw Tribe, conqueror of the stunted thieves and slayer of the Great Fang! Lover of a thousand men and Mistress of the Eastern Plains, decided to feature 'conquerer of the stunted thieves' as part of her big intro and titles.

So like, apparently the halfings were already considered a menace by the future Stirlanders, or at least she conquered them. They spread outwards from that point after a time, their clans spreading elsewhere, but there has been nothing at all, ever, in any material I can recall, that shows halflings as having another racial group. There are halflings adventuring from outside of the Mootland, leaving the Empire behind to do this or that, but they're all recognizably halflings who can draw lines back to the Mootland given enough time. No Indan halflings, no Cathayan halflings, nothing like that. Just a single group of halflings that survived long enough to breed much larger and spread their race outwards over time. If there were other halfling groups, evidently they did not survive those mysterious foggy primordial days aside from that group that would eventually settle into the Empire.

Ogres in general can mutate. That's not a racial differentiator, not like how a few mutations here and there in phenotype and what not gave rise to different racial groups amongst humans on Earth. They can sprout horns, fingers on their bows, second mouths, skin color changing wildly, hardening into leather plates, whatever, and it can happen just like that, in a snap of the fingers or nibble of warpstone. Their differences from mainline ogres are purely cultural for those taken in by the Cathayans and those from Nippon I decided ate some elemental beings and were altered physically from that, not racially, but magically/elementally altered.

What we do have is plenty of ogre pictures and imagery, thanks to the Maneater artworks and the like, that shows them in all a manner of different cultural outfits or amalgamations of them...and then you see the face. And you know what? That's just 'an ogre'. They're all 'an ogre'. Big and generally physically similar to one another. Mutations or the effects of the Great Maw like on the twisted up bastards in the Lazargh's tribe who are ultra turbo fucked by the Great Maw like no other ogres because they camp out on the thing's lips, do not count in my eyes for 'racial groups'. All the ogres started in the western plains of Cathay. There were no ogres of Naggaroth or Lustria or the Southlands or the Empire or Norsca or the Northern Steppes or Khuresh or Ind or Nippon or anything else.

There was just the ogres. Who then got pushed into the Mountains of Mourn. And then, culturally, were wanderers and nomads and that's how they spread out around. They were never any other ogres for them to 'discover', or 'be discovered' by. It would be like if Egypt arose on the banks of the Nile, and there were no other humans in Africa. Nubians are a bird-legged skinny pointed eared group that lives for thousands of years, the western part of northern Africa is ruled by strange, permanently shortened figures who are proportional to their heights with big beards and long hair, and across the straits to the north are a group of skinny short lived insect-thin individuals who are most certainly of an entirely different species than the Egyptians. And there are never any other Egyptians anywhere else on the entire planet except for those that come from Egyptians who went over to somewhere else and had children there.

At the end of the day, humans, and it seems just humans, get to have have racial groups and racism amongst themselves in Warhammer Fantasy. Everyone has species-based discrimination, sure, elves vs. dwarfs for instance, humans vs. beastmen, greenskins vs. everyone - with even the more divergent groups like gnoblars and hobgoblins regarded with annoyance or distrust they are still considered greenskins who worship Gork and Mork and all that. They might not like them, but they'll still say 'yeah, they're greenskins, obviously', but it literally just comes down to how killy you are, how tough you are, etc. rather than anything else at the end of the day. There are doctrinal arguments, sure, like 'We are fine' says the Asur and 'Our guy should be in charge of us AND you' for the Druchii and 'screw everyone we're staying in our forest' for the Asrai, they all still are elves, all have the same Pantheon just treated in different ways. Or 'The Ancestor Gods abandoned us, Hashut saved us, but obviously we're still dwarfs' for the Dawi Zharr and 'The Ancestor Gods did everything right forever' for the regular Dawi, and both group think of the other group of dawi as betrayers of the other but still dawi, based upon religious differences. Literally the only difference is that Hashut is divinely invested into the being of the Dawi Zharr. That's it. Not racial, but religious.

Humans get to have racial groups. Everyone else has to settle for other ways to discriminate amongst themselves.
 
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It's little things like this that remind you that Mallus is not a natural world, but a huge experiment that got contaminated basically.
 
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At the end of the day, it was a game designed by British people a long, long time ago, or so I hear.

I'm going to have to correct you here @torroar, yes it was/maybe still is a game designed by British people, but in that context it is still racist.

First of all Warhammer being designed by the British begs the question of hey where are the actual Dark Elves.

You see Druchii are not the actual Dark Elves on a metatextual level in the context of British storytelling, Tolkien for instance wouldn't consider them such as he wrote about actual Dark Elves (in a single story but still more than most people ever bother to), instead Druchii are well Warhammer's version of the Drow, or the Drow are D&D's version of Druchii, which are Fallen/Cursed Elves.

The people who wrote/maybe write Warhammer Fantasy are being racist, but it's inter-British racism where they lionize their own myths over the myths of other people from the British Isles. See Tzeentch who is an obvious expy of that Lamprey Dragon myth, I want to say it's called the Lambton Worm but I'm not fully sure, that cursed his? slayer and his family for generations.

In British mythology that is a hey that sucked for that one family to be cursed to die for X number of generations until recently, in Warhammer in general Tzeentch is the God of Sorcerers and Schemers which is a massive upgrade in power and relevance.

Then there is Warhammer's take on the King Arthur cycle with Brettonia in Fantasy and Lion El'Jonson in 40k which misses the point of those myths, the remixes of them and the modern criticism of them to go for Eugenics and Noblesse Oblige in the case of Brettonia and Monster Hunting, Intrigue and Daddy Issues in the case of the Lion and the Dark Angels.

Games Workshop is not simply made of British writers, it's made of British writers who at best don't like most of the rest of Britain.
 
Not...really a correction? You've just explicitly stated what I was gesturing to? Me saying that it's quite bright out today isn't going to be corrected by telling me that the sun is out, you know what I mean?

Also I gotta be honest, man, I have never in my life heard of any Lamprey Dragon myth, or cursed British family generations stuff that you related to Tzeentch. And yeah, the Lion and the Green Knight and all that are obviously King Arthur expys but not aligning with the exact points of King Arthur's stuff is like...yeah?

As for the Druchii vs. Drow vs. Fallen Elves with Tolkien and all that...okay? I'll be honest, again, I did not ever for one single second regard them from that direction as being a failed attempt at appropriating the concept of fallen elves as communicated by Drow as developed on the base created by Tolkien. I thought of them as being Dark Elves because they call themselves Dark Elves and so they're the Dark Elves of Warhammer. And they are arrogant, violent, jerks who consider the world theirs to do with as they wish, plus slavery and what not, so possibly a take on twisted Americans due to their geographical location. Sort of. For that measure, they are a lied to, broken down and rebuilt facsimile of a civilization which is in reality a toolbox to be used and abused by a few specific elves who departed the 'original' elven group of Warhammer over disagreements over authority and inheritance and all that, not at all like the mega tortured sad elves of Tolkien. Nor are they like the Drow, because the Drow have Lolth, and the Druchii have literally just the half of the Pantheon that they like more than the Asur, but it's all still the same, and even the Asur still acknowledge those Gods to the point of offering them prayers and building shrines to them and the like. While the Asrai worship them on a more equal mandala than the dominance of Cadai or Cytharai over the other.
 
Main point is that humans are the odd ones out in universe, due both to creators and in lore reasons. Kinda goes back how they are the most 'malleable' race among the Old Ones' creations and why Chaos likes them so much as toys.
 
not at all like the mega tortured sad elves of Tolkien.

What mega tortured sad elves of Tolkien? Orcs are Elves corrupted by Melkor/Morgoth trough manipulation, torture and magic yes, but they are not the Dark Elves in Tolkien's world.

There are only two Dark Elves that show up in Tolkien's works and both are in the Silmarillion.

Nor are they like the Drow, because the Drow have Lolth, and the Druchii have literally just the half of the Pantheon that they like more than the Asur, but it's all still the same, and even the Asur still acknowledge those Gods to the point of offering them prayers and building shrines to them and the like. While the Asrai worship them on a more equal mandala than the dominance of Cadai or Cytharai over the other.

The Druchii have Morathi the same way the Drow have Lolth. It's the same story/idea/trope just in a different setting with different characters and different power levels.
 
What mega tortured sad elves of Tolkien? Orcs are Elves corrupted by Melkor/Morgoth trough manipulation, torture and magic yes, but they are not the Dark Elves in Tolkien's world.

There are only two Dark Elves that show up in Tolkien's works and both are in the Silmarillion.



The Druchii have Morathi the same way the Drow have Lolth. It's the same story/idea/trope just in a different setting with different characters and different power levels.
The point is, it's not really important what comparisons you can make with elves of other fictions because it hasn't a played a part in decision making, worldbuilding, or anything in this quest.
 
What mega tortured sad elves of Tolkien? Orcs are Elves corrupted by Melkor/Morgoth trough manipulation, torture and magic yes, but they are not the Dark Elves in Tolkien's world.

There are only two Dark Elves that show up in Tolkien's works and both are in the Silmarillion.

Fair enough man, I thought that's what you were referring to, not something out of the Silmarillion. I've never read that one, I only know about big spider from that, basically.

The Druchii have Morathi the same way the Drow have Lolth. It's the same story/idea/trope just in a different setting with different characters and different power levels.

Except they also have Malekith and Hellebron, and they have an overarching God in Khaine who is not like Lolth. There are Gods who are sort of like Lolth, Hekarti and Atharti and Drakira, but they also have Vaul, Khaine as already mentioned, Hukon who is like earthquakes and what not, and so on. So they really don't have Morathi the same way the Drow have Lolth. They have multiple powerful dark Goddesses, but their culture is not that of the Drow. There are some similarities, but there are also plenty of differences.

Basically...

The point is, it's not really important what comparisons you can make with elves of other fictions because it hasn't a played a part in decision making, worldbuilding, or anything in this quest.

This. It might have played, at some point, in the creation of Warhammer Fantasy as a universe, but I can promise you with all my heart and mind that I am not proceeding to write the Druchii with a single thought in my head about Lolth, Drow, or the Silmarillion. I never have. Not for the years of DoDA.
 
This. It might have played, at some point, in the creation of Warhammer Fantasy as a universe, but I can promise you with all my heart and mind that I am not proceeding to write the Druchii with a single thought in my head about Lolth, Drow, or the Silmarillion. I never have. Not for the years of DoDA.

Yes. That is one of the things that makes DoDA so good, but the fact is that Games Workshop has thought about all of those things in their own way and have incorporated those ideas into the setting.

As for this:

Except they also have Malekith and Hellebron, and they have an overarching God in Khaine who is not like Lolth. There are Gods who are sort of like Lolth, Hekarti and Atharti and Drakira, but they also have Vaul, Khaine as already mentioned, Hukon who is like earthquakes and what not, and so on. So they really don't have Morathi the same way the Drow have Lolth. They have multiple powerful dark Goddesses, but their culture is not that of the Drow. There are some similarities, but there are also plenty of differences.

I'll take it as the punctuation that it is, unless you actually want me to rant about how pop culture works this time.
 
all dwarfs are forced to acknowledge its greatness and feel heartened by it and inspired and woooooooooooooo.
I can't check right now but do they appreciate beards on humans/halflings?

What if a human grew a comparable beard?

Do dawizharr care about the beards outside their culture?
Except they also have Malekith and Hellebron, and they have an overarching God in Khaine who is not like Lolth. There are Gods who are sort of like Lolth, Hekarti and Atharti and Drakira, but they also have Vaul, Khaine as already mentioned, Hukon who is like earthquakes and what not, and so on. So they really don't have Morathi the same way the Drow have Lolth. They have multiple powerful dark Goddesses, but their culture is not that of the Drow. There are some similarities, but there are also plenty of differences.
I dunno why but this bit here makes me want to read about a Dnd Drow experiencing culture shock with these new weird Elves.
Male Drow: Looks like ours. Is obviously not ours.

Malekith getting dumped in Dnd and having to deal with the weird world where everything his built is just not a factor.
Maybe he decides to stay. Maybe he decides to seek great magic to go home.

Maybe he's healed, maybe he's still in magic vader armor.


I like cultural dissonance apparently.
 
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Mmm....not sure if it'd be a thing for them. It's about fullness and length. Male dwarfs have to wrap their beards around a dwarf woman's waist, the more times, it affects the dowry to pay, and that sort of thing. Actual, determinative length is a real thing for status amongst dwarfs, having to loop beard multiple times or form multiple plaits and braids. An afro really wouldn't work like that. You can have curly hair, straight hair, whatever, but it needs to be long and full.
... That might be on me for how I phrased that.
I meant Afros in general. Likely in Marienburg or Barak Varr would b places where dwarfs would see peoples with afros, so I wonder what their take on that.
Esspecially if they see someone pulling writing utenisils out of a one.
Such 'cloud headed' humans would likely ilicit some reaction.

Same for halflings and ogres?
I can belive it is for ogres, but halflings are a lore black hole in that regard. Are there other 'branches' of hlafling genes?

Hmmm, what about halflings and ogres?
Never mind. was beat to the punch.

Humans get to have racial groups. Everyone else has to settle for other ways to discriminate amongst themselves.
... well, 'survive until civilizaion is a thing' was apparently too tall an order....

That punchline feel inadequit. oh well.
 
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Are we counting fur colour discrimination
In skaven society as racism?

Or do they just not count because skaven are just the worst in so many ways that this hilariously minor example is just something to overlook?
 
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... Bit out of blue but... what do we think happend to that one gryphon we tried taming before we god Oskana and Sigismunds eggs?
Kind of hope they got to have family and mess things up in MM. that has potential for funny reunioins.
 
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Are we counting fur colour discrimination
In skaven society as racism?

Or do they just not count because skaven are just the worst in so many ways that this hilariously minor example is just something to overlook?

Again, that's not racial group discrimination, so much as it's doctrinal and religious. Grey Seers are born straight out of the gate with different fur and horns. That's something we don't really have a precise 1:1 thing on in humanity, because if regularly just, say, American parents had an albino child who was born with horns and then all of a sudden The Church of the Horned Human - the only church in all of the land for all Americans or at least it's supposed to be except for those Pestilens bastards - swooped in and said 'this here is a blessed child of the Horned Human and we'll take things from here' and then they're raised up to be a super cool wizard man, then like...that's not the same thing as human racial groups. Same thing with stormvermin, who are born with black fur, and are subsequently scooped up by the armed forces and undergo a major regimen of training and increased caloric feeding and all that business, right out of the womb. I'm not sure if you want to count it as racism or caste system or another case of religious decrees and organization set forth by the Great Horned Rat and his chosen ones.
 
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