Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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@torroar
By the way, what would the false Throne of Power the Chaos Dwarves made back in Karak Ungor actually do? What would have happened if Freddy and Co weren't there to stop them? And if we hadn't joined the Reclamation, would the Chaos Dwarves have been able to activate it?

And on that subject, what was the plan if we didn't wind up joining the Reclamation for whatever reason, possibly due to different decisions made earlier in the quest? Was there a realistic chance that Ortrud and Thorgrim would have been able to take it in a year regardless despite the projected timetable being 15 years, and we would have gotten an announcement about it next turn?

And I guess I should ask, what would have happened if they had rolled poorly and the campaign failed? Given that the Dammaz Kron and the Axe of Grimnir almost got eaten by a Squig at the entrance when we were there, I imagine the in-universe consequences would have been absolutely devastating.
 
Well, firstly, it would have poisoned the mind and soul of the High King that sat upon it, and through them, the dwarfs.

The Rune of Azamar is of incredible importance:

Azamar, the Rune of Eternity struck into the Throne of Power, was the work of Grungni himself. The Rune of Eternity was so powerful only one of its kind had ever been wrought, and it could never be duplicated. Bound within that single rune was all the craftsmanship, all the tenacity and all the iron will of the greatest of the Ancestor Gods of the Dwarfs.

As the legends tell it, when Grungni was done with his creation, he stepped back to assess his work. He was a harsh and exacting judge, always demanding perfection, and never finding it. In Azamar, however, Grungni was wholly satisfied. Still, being thrifty in praise, Grungni made only this promise; so long as the rune of Azamar endures, the Karaz Ankor shall never fall.

So no longer having the Rune of Azamar for the dwarf people would be a bad thing, especially if they managed to get the throne back to Zharr-Naggrund and do all sorts of nasty things to it.

It wasn't a sure thing of activation, either. They needed the High King's blood to do it, and if he hadn't been caught like you all were, that would have been harder. Plus, the throne might not have been in a position to be taken, though in this case it was saved by Urgdug.

Within a year? Probably not. It would have been a slow, grinding thing as was meant to be and presumed by the dawi. Updates would have come every turn as they slowly dug their way down.

If they rolled spectacularly poorly, yes it would have been horrific. The runes protecting the Dammaz Kron would have probably kept it okay, same with the other stuff, but some damage would have occurred. At the same time, no guarantee that it would have gone super badly either. We're getting into a matter of many rolls, long ago, distant from the player's eyes, that it's difficult to speculate as to what precisely would have happened depending on the rolls. They could have rolled amazing instead, and instead of getting super granular as we ended up doing, a few rolls might have encapsulated whole floors and levels at a time outside of granular moments necessarily. High King lost would have caused massive damage to a lot of things, I'm not sure why that needs to be extrapolated on, honestly.

It's pretty obvious the consequences of losing the High King, right? Like I don't need to explain that that would be bad?

What would have happened? Lots of bad things?????
 
Genon said:
And I guess I should ask, what would have happened if they had rolled poorly and the campaign failed? Given that the Dammaz Kron and the Axe of Grimnir almost got eaten by a Squig at the entrance when we were there, I imagine the in-universe consequences would have been absolutely devastating.
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True. Though it just occurred to me that eating those would probably be bad for the squig, too. Small consolation, but the concentrated embodiment of dwarven salt and bitterness at millennia of civilizational humiliation would probably be enough to give even a squig an ulcer, and a divine ax would probably be even less, uh, easily digestible. :p
 
torroar said:
Well, firstly, it would have poisoned the mind and soul of the High King that sat upon it, and through them, the dwarfs.

The Rune of Azamar is of incredible importance:

Azamar, the Rune of Eternity struck into the Throne of Power, was the work of Grungni himself. The Rune of Eternity was so powerful only one of its kind had ever been wrought, and it could never be duplicated. Bound within that single rune was all the craftsmanship, all the tenacity and all the iron will of the greatest of the Ancestor Gods of the Dwarfs.

As the legends tell it, when Grungni was done with his creation, he stepped back to assess his work. He was a harsh and exacting judge, always demanding perfection, and never finding it. In Azamar, however, Grungni was wholly satisfied. Still, being thrifty in praise, Grungni made only this promise; so long as the rune of Azamar endures, the Karaz Ankor shall never fall.

So no longer having the Rune of Azamar for the dwarf people would be a bad thing, especially if they managed to get the throne back to Zharr-Naggrund and do all sorts of nasty things to it.

It wasn't a sure thing of activation, either. They needed the High King's blood to do it, and if he hadn't been caught like you all were, that would have been harder. Plus, the throne might not have been in a position to be taken, though in this case it was saved by Urgdug.

Within a year? Probably not. It would have been a slow, grinding thing as was meant to be and presumed by the dawi. Updates would have come every turn as they slowly dug their way down.

If they rolled spectacularly poorly, yes it would have been horrific. The runes protecting the Dammaz Kron would have probably kept it okay, same with the other stuff, but some damage would have occurred. At the same time, no guarantee that it would have gone super badly either. We're getting into a matter of many rolls, long ago, distant from the player's eyes, that it's difficult to speculate as to what precisely would have happened depending on the rolls. They could have rolled amazing instead, and instead of getting super granular as we ended up doing, a few rolls might have encapsulated whole floors and levels at a time outside of granular moments necessarily. High King lost would have caused massive damage to a lot of things, I'm not sure why that needs to be extrapolated on, honestly.

It's pretty obvious the consequences of losing the High King, right? Like I don't need to explain that that would be bad?

What would have happened? Lots of bad things?????
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I understand. I was mostly curious what the metaphysical side of this would all be because, for example, I didn't even know that the Rune of Azamar was a thing until you brought it up. And that begs the question, did the Chaos Dwarves actually manage an approximation of the Rune of Azamar themselves, on that false throne? Or at least a Rune that can destroy a Rune that Grungni himself made? That's seriously impressive, even for them.
 
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Genon said:
I understand. I was mostly curious what the metaphysical side of this would all be because, for example, I didn't even know that the Rune of Azamar was a thing until you brought it up. And that begs the question, did the Chaos Dwarves actually manage an approximation of the Rune of Azamar themselves? Or at least a Rune that can destroy a Rune that Grugni himself made? That's seriously impressive, even for them.
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Mmm, not quite. They made an approximate appearance of one. The False Rune of Azamar would have looked like, acted like, seemed like, the true Rune of Azamar.

Except for the fact that it would begin to falter.

Suffice to say that the psychological blow of the Rune of Azamar starting to flicker and fade would have been more devastating to the dwarfs as a people than the Gates of Karaz-a-Karak being breached. It would mean that their people were fully doomed, that even Grugni's favor and craft had their limits, etc. All kinds of bad things, if the Rune of Azamar was ever to falter like it would seem to be.

And, meanwhile, the real Throne would be undergoing active damage from Hashut himself in Zharr-Naggrund, so the damage to the true Rune would potentially be causing the same issues back to the dwarfs.

So maybe Thorgrim was a bad High King, and if he somehow lived he departs the position ashamed and in failure, and becomes a Slayer because under his leadership the Throne of Power and the Rune of Azamar falters. So they pick a new one. But it doesn't fix it. No living Runelord, not Kragg, not his book, no one, would have the knowledge to try and effect repairs to something that Grugnni hand-made like the Rune of Azamar. They'd try. They'd fail. They'd feel even worse.

By the time that Hashut and his priesthood finally managed to actually break the real Throne of Power, the entire Karaz Ankor would have probably begun to crack and fall apart and decay as their morale shot down past bedrock and all their enemies, skaven, greenskin, etc. seized upon them. The Chaos Dwarfs would merely need to watch, and wait, with all their hellish cold patience for the betrayers to die out without them needing to lift another finger.

Assuming, of course, that the thrones could be switched and the proper High King blood sources to complete the throne, and so on.
 
Did they exist fine when the Ancestor Gods were personally walking around ensuring things were going fine?

Yes.

But it was literally Grungni himself, the Ancestor God Grugni, who made it, and was walking around making sure things were fine, who said and I quote:

so long as the rune of Azamar endures, the Karaz Ankor shall never fall.
So uh, not sure where the confusion is coming from there. Grungni SAID if Rune is enduring, Karaz Ankor is enduring. Are you going to say that an Ancestor God was wrong, was lying, was not incapable of doing something like this: Bound within that single rune was all the craftsmanship, all the tenacity and all the iron will of the greatest of the Ancestor Gods of the Dwarfs.

And binding all of that to the rune? The Ancestor God? Grugni? Are you saying that you think that Grugni was lying or wrong or incapable?

Because like, it seems there's a disconnect here between dwarfs existing with active leadership of the Ancestor Gods themselves walking the world and the world of the dwarfs after the Ancestor Gods ceased to walk the world with only their great works and legacies to remember them by that you might not be acknowledging.
 
torroar said:
Did they exist fine when the Ancestor Gods were personally walking around ensuring things were going fine?

Yes.

But it was literally Grungni himself, the Ancestor God Grugni, who made it, and was walking around making sure things were fine, who said and I quote:

so long as the rune of Azamar endures, the Karaz Ankor shall never fall.
So uh, not sure where the confusion is coming from there. Grungni SAID if Rune is enduring, Karaz Ankor is enduring. Are you going to say that an Ancestor God was wrong, was lying, was not incapable of doing something like this: Bound within that single rune was all the craftsmanship, all the tenacity and all the iron will of the greatest of the Ancestor Gods of the Dwarfs.

And binding all of that to the rune? The Ancestor God? Grugni? Are you saying that you think that Grugni was lying or wrong or incapable?

Because like, it seems there's a disconnect here between dwarfs existing with active leadership of the Ancestor Gods themselves walking the world and the world of the dwarfs after the Ancestor Gods ceased to walk the world with only their great works and legacies to remember them by that you might not be acknowledging.
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Karaz Ankor is not the dwarfs , its just their nation state/kingdom , the way I read it is the as long as the rune of Azamar endures the kingdom will never fall , the dwarfs themselves as a race will still be fine
 
You read it horribly, horribly incorrectly then.

In no universe would the dwarfs see the faltering of the great rune put down by Grungni himself faltering as something they'd be 'fine' with.

In no universe would their beloved Karaz Ankor faltering and collapsing would the dwarfs, who have sworn oaths ad infinitum and grudges ad infinitum to supporting rebuilding growing protecting and more, be 'fine'.

That's just a total and absolute misread on the mentality, psychology, and spiritual being of the dwarfs, sorry.
 
torroar said:
You read it horribly, horribly incorrectly then.

In no universe would the dwarfs see the faltering of the great rune put down by Grungni himself faltering as something they'd be 'fine' with.

In no universe would their beloved Karaz Ankor faltering and collapsing would the dwarfs, who have sworn oaths ad infinitum and grudges ad infinitum to supporting rebuilding growing protecting and more, be 'fine'.

That's just a total and absolute misread on the mentality, psychology, and spiritual being of the dwarfs, sorry.
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fine was a relative term here , I figured new dwarf heroes would rise to the occasion to build something new in that eventuality which is presumably how the ancestor gods came to be
 
mmgaballah said:
Karaz Ankor is not the dwarfs , its just their nation state/kingdom , the way I read it is the as long as the rune of Azamar endures the kingdom will never fall , the dwarfs themselves as a race will still be fine
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Yes. The dwarves are strong but very, very inflexible. They're not going to distinguish between "the structure of the Karaz Ankor as a state," "the continuity of dwarven civilization," and "the survival of the dwarves as a species."

If you pressed a dwarf on the point, they might concede that there are conceivable (if horribly undesirable) worlds in which the Karaz Ankor has plainly and irrevocably fallen, and yet some dwarves are still alive, at least for now.

But they would point out, with good reason, the result of such a thing.

Because dwarves have a fairly consistent species-wide psychology. To be a dwarf in such a world would be, almost by definition, humiliating agony. You would see dwarves formally becoming slayers, or informally just giving up hope and getting themselves killed or becoming incapable of performing their roles in society, more and more, under the crushing awareness of their defeat and its irreversible nature. You would see rapid decline in fertility, which is already low because of how much pressure the dwarves are under.

The dwarves as a species might last a while in that situation, but they would soon enough fall into extinction, or into near-extinction apart from at most a handful of scattered holdouts clinging precariously to the fact that their enemies do not know where they are. And that extinction process might well take less than a single dwarven lifetime after the fall of the Karaz Ankor.

mmgaballah said:
fine was a relative term here , I figured new dwarf heroes would rise to the occasion to build something new in that eventuality which is presumably how the ancestor gods came to be
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No dwarf would confidently expect such an outcome, and the nature of dwarven culture is such that they would tend to dismiss it so hard that the dismissal becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

That's not to say that no dwarves would try their best- many, many dwarves would. But they're already trying their best, and it's either not good enough or barely good enough to keep them intact, even when they have the advantages of the Karaz Ankor still holding strong as a kingdom.
 
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Still waitiing for Fredric going full on

Chad La Muerte

on some poor sod.
Those DO leave a mark

Edit: and now Im imagining Freddy punching the statues into a fresk... goodness me.
Bleach refrence...
 
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torroar said:
You read it horribly, horribly incorrectly then.

In no universe would the dwarfs see the faltering of the great rune put down by Grungni himself faltering as something they'd be 'fine' with.

In no universe would their beloved Karaz Ankor faltering and collapsing would the dwarfs, who have sworn oaths ad infinitum and grudges ad infinitum to supporting rebuilding growing protecting and more, be 'fine'.

That's just a total and absolute misread on the mentality, psychology, and spiritual being of the dwarfs, sorry.
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One way to perhaps help human/dawi relations in the wake of the dawi zhaar reveal.

A drunken middenheimer stands up in the barracks.

Dawi. As you know humans can be turned by all manner of evil forces. We can be cursed, bewitched, mutated and so on. And the Dawi resistance to such things is a great blessing to you. But no one likes talking about that one cousin in the family who is just an idiot.

So it is clear that the Dawi zhaar turned to evil because they are just utter idiots. And all their sneaking around is to try and prevent the world seeing what embarrasing morons they are. When evil entered our world and all creation turned upside down the now named dumbest zhaar obviously fell on their heads.

Their utter separation from the clearly not stupid Dawi is in fact a boon. Because it means that in no way whatsoever can the Dawi race be associated with the most incredible stupidity that the world has ever seen.

Because even the most brain addled Boiled beer drinking, thrice cursed, ignorant human in existence. Even the dimmest thaggaroki with a spear lodged in its brain. Even a brettonian with their moustache waxed so much it's a damn fire hazard. Would all agree.

That in no way would making the fecking grobi more disciplined and intelligent is a good idea!! They thought that would make them into better slaves? Obviously it's their brains that turned to rock first!!" Then he grabs another tankard of beer. "And now I will drink some more to stop thinking about the sheer painful stupidity of this."
 
Derain VonHarken said:
One way to perhaps help human/dawi relations in the wake of the dawi zhaar reveal.

A drunken middenheimer stands up in the barracks.

Dawi. As you know humans can be turned by all manner of evil forces. We can be cursed, bewitched, mutated and so on. And the Dawi resistance to such things is a great blessing to you. But no one likes talking about that one cousin in the family who is just an idiot.

So it is clear that the Dawi zhaar turned to evil because they are just utter idiots. And all their sneaking around is to try and prevent the world seeing what embarrasing morons they are. When evil entered our world and all creation turned upside down the now named dumbest zhaar obviously fell on their heads.

Their utter separation from the clearly not stupid Dawi is in fact a boon. Because it means that in no way whatsoever can the Dawi race be associated with the most incredible stupidity that the world has ever seen.

Because even the most brain addled Boiled beer drinking, thrice cursed, ignorant human in existence. Even the dimmest thaggaroki with a spear lodged in its brain. Even a brettonian with their moustache waxed so much it's a damn fire hazard. Would all agree.

That in no way would making the fecking grobi more disciplined and intelligent is a good idea!! They thought that would make them into better slaves? Obviously it's their brains that turned to rock first!!" Then he grabs another tankard of beer. "And now I will drink some more to stop thinking about the sheer painful stupidity of this."
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Uhhh. That won't work for many reasons.
 
What about imperial dwarves? Is there a degree on integration where they would survive that catastrophe?

The chaos dwarves exist, so there is precedent of wiggle room for a disconnect between dwarves and the Karaz Ankor, or is it too insignificant?
 
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