So while the Empire disdained magic in large part thanks to dwarf influence, they couldn't actually teach the Empire the 'safe' method of handling magic, because, well, they really can't for the most part.
Also isn't it partly cause humans largely don't have the right mindset or lifespan to get good at it under dwarf teachers? Or that dwarfs don't think humans have bloodline for it since all runesmiths can trace their line to Thungni or something?

They never taught high elves, even when they were friends, rune magic after all.
 
Right, time to put more ogres into Manaan worship and build more temples so we can get an ogre navy crew.

We can use them to go deep sea fishing for krakens.
 
Also isn't it partly cause humans largely don't have the right mindset or lifespan to get good at it under dwarf teachers? Or that dwarfs don't think humans have bloodline for it since all runesmiths can trace their line to Thungni or something?

They never taught high elves, even when they were friends, rune magic after all.

1. Well, yes, that's what I was getting at with the 'they really can't, for the most part' bit. There is a distinct difference between regular human precision and DWARFEN precision. Is it absolutely, positively, impossible for the former to match the latter? No. But boy, does it take a lot. A whole, whole, whole lot. Setting aside the Thungni bloodline thing, even, it requires a very specific mentality, plus, a genuine sort of inherent robustness against magic that dwarfs literally possess and humans literally do not, to be able to take this ephemeral thing and sorta squanch it into stone the way dwarfs do. If a human lived long enough alongside the dwarfs, had what might be considered some very divergent mental quirks, they might be able to manage facsimiles, but I really just do doubt that they'd be able to make straight dwarf runes. Still! Human magical runes are still a thing, still possible, they just won't be as good as dwarf ones. Oh! And time, time is a big issue. If a human had as long to live and dwarf stable stubbornness and focus to learn up, they might possible come closer to grasping it than not.

2. Well, there is at least one rune that the Asur's records show they helped the dwarfs develop, but that the dwarf records rather stubbornly do not show atm. So that's a whole other possible discussion to take things.
 
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Still! Human magical runes are still a thing, still possible, they just won't be as good as dwarf ones.
Yeah, Gold Wizards canonically at least make some kinda human rune magic, which isn't surprising since the Gold Wind gives them that mentality and such you talked about that would help them get closer to dwarf one.

Gold and Bright Wizards, and maybe a little bit of Light, are the Colleges that have the most consistent success in crafting magical artifacts after all, drawing on metal and power of forge respectively, though other Colleges can do it too, if not as consistently.

I think if a Gold Wizard worked alongside a Runesmith, they would get it better than most, but most runesmiths would not trust uncontrolled magic in any workshop of theirs, since they find the Winds on their own way too unpredictable and dangerous.
Well, there is at least one rune that the Asur's records show they helped the dwarfs develop, but that the dwarf records rather stubbornly do not show atm. So that's a whole other possible discussion to take things.
No surprise there given the bad blood with elves.

I wonder if that means high elves could attempt to teach Colleges their variant of runes, if they haven't already I mean and that is basis for enchanting gear that Gold and Bright colleges make.
 
I can make a list if you want and you or the readers can choose what is profitable and possible ok torroar?

Sure thing, dude. Depending on how large your list is, you might want to break it up into chunks, though, yeah? That way we can debate a few of the items at a time, and once that debate is done, you could post the next bit. Might be better than just throwing out an enormous hunk of stuff that could lead to people picking and choosing from too many things and not quite connecting the conversation together.

I wonder if that means high elves could attempt to teach Colleges their variant of runes, if they haven't already I mean and that is basis for enchanting gear that Gold and Bright colleges make.

It could be the basis? But also, maybe just some foundational teachings from Teclis and his buddies because 'true' elven runecraft requires, you know. Elf brain and elf lifespan. But by putting some guardrails, the humans can try and muddle their way forward more safely than otherwise.
 
1- bronze or iron rhinos as ogre cavalry units or pack machines for war wagons. 2 - goats also made of bronze or iron intended as mountain and underground cavalry, they can be offered to a certain faction without cavalry. 3 - machine birds that can be used as air cavalry and bombers carrying larger, more dangerous bombs
 
1- bronze or iron rhinos as ogre cavalry units or pack machines for war wagons. 2 - goats also made of bronze or iron intended as mountain and underground cavalry, they can be offered to a certain faction without cavalry. 3 - machine birds that can be used as air cavalry and bombers carrying larger, more dangerous bombs
Why go trough all this trouble,when the living things are much cheapear,more plentiful and they work pretty good?
 
So...okay.

So given the canonical existence of the steam and lightning mechanical horse, I can't strictly say no to something like a mechanical bull or rhino. Or, more accurately, rhinoxen, as rhinos are different from rhinoxen. But, well, the one canonical example of such that we have, is the daemon-machine created by the Dawi Zharr to give to that one ogre tyrant. A rhinoxen made of clockwork gears and stuff isn't impossible, I'm not going to say that, but that level of strength and that level of complexity is a pretty wild departure from where things are going with the engineers at the moment. They'd need to complete a few clockwork projects to even begin formulating something like that.

Goat ones are, kind of the same problem? Plus, if you're going to suggest mechanical anything of human make to try and give en masse to the dwarfs, then that's already a nonstarter. Zakumgi creations like a mechanical goat are just not likely to be accepted, let alone created properly in the first place.

Bird machines are not really necessary at the moment because you've already got multiple flocks of bird bombers? It's a lot easier to breed and train the later than try and make windup expensive labor intensive mechanical birds to go and do the same thing. Larger birds are even more of an issue. Part of the wonder of the wing-suits is that they can flap around and do all that, but they involve canvass and wood with metal reinforcements. Going full metal and such is not likely to be nearly so easily possible. Gyrocopters and gyrobombers exist, yes, but require active pilots and training and are difficult to make/maintain even for the dwarfs, and this sounds like a worse and more difficult to control version of those.
 
1- bronze or iron rhinos as ogre cavalry units or pack machines for war wagons. 2 - goats also made of bronze or iron intended as mountain and underground cavalry, they can be offered to a certain faction without cavalry. 3 - machine birds that can be used as air cavalry and bombers carrying larger, more dangerous bombs
So, automaton animals while possible is not something that we can field in large quantities.

A answer in ogre cavalry do exist by rearing the animals the Maw ogres uses as such, basically wooly 2 horned Rhinos.

Dawi have goats themselves already but they are no good for tunnel fighting, cavalry in general is not really the dwarven doctrine.

With the current tech we have we can extrapolate a plane with it the problem is more we cant put guns on it. They also would be expensive on themselves.
 
Definitely seems like we'd be better off just making more Vapor Tanks and investing in these fancy Vapor Cyclers that are an option before trying to make clockwork stuff. At least until such time as we have more examples, or Anna gets a clockwork bug and starts going down that research tree. But given she seems firmly in the Vapor Engine track, I'd guess we'd be seeing more of that. Possibly we could spend some resources on getting the Golds to enchant or otherwise help with our Vapor Tanks though. Which, could be pretty awesome. Or the Bright wizards maybe to give us even fancier magic alcohol?
 
We could spend some action in refining the vapor engies, better fuel more streamlined being able to be mounted in more things. It's a working combustion engine and a lot of things can be done.
 
We could spend some action in refining the vapor engies, better fuel more streamlined being able to be mounted in more things. It's a working combustion engine and a lot of things can be done.
That would be part of the vaporcycler research action as a side effect of building a vaporcycler the engineers need to make improvements to the engine, the metals used, the designs.
 
We could spend some action in refining the vapor engies, better fuel more streamlined being able to be mounted in more things. It's a working combustion engine and a lot of things can be done.
Oh yeah definitely. Seems like if we build more Vapor Tanks, get the Vapor Cyclers built, we'll be getting some significant institutional knowledge about how the Vapor Engines work, which could hopefully be put towards other form factors. Eventually we'd hopefully figure out how to make Vapor ships, and potentially even Vapor Planes... or possibly Ornithopters utilizing upscaled Wing-Suit designs? That stuff is probably at least a decade away though. Still more we invest in it the better.

Oh plus there's the option to build more schools within Wulfenburg itself, that should also just improve the number of incoming engineers which should help long term as well. More people, more ideas. Though that likely won't pay off for years after it gets completed. But it'll keep paying off long term.
 
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That would be part of the vaporcycler research action as a side effect of building a vaporcycler the engineers need to make improvements to the engine, the metals used, the designs.
Not necessarily the Vaporcycle research feels more like fitting the engine into a smaler frame. Sure some engeneiring will go into that but is not the goal as refine de desing itself would. Right now the engine we have require master engeneirs to operate, aceptable to a lord of war but not much by an individual unity on a platoon.
 
Not necessarily the Vaporcycle research feels more like fitting the engine into a smaler frame. Sure some engeneiring will go into that but is not the goal as refine de desing itself would. Right now the engine we have require master engeneirs to operate, aceptable to a lord of war but not much by an individual unity on a platoon.
More efficient movement from the Vaporcycle design would still be nice. Which is a lesson of it's own the Vapor Tank cannot teach due to it's design including a cannon, and it's tank design.

Maybe more efficient energy usage and vapor engine development will arise from the vaporcycler because the different design created different problems from the Vapor Tank.

Even better if vapor engine design is developed just by taking vaporcyclers instead of creating a action separate to develop the vapor engine with only the Vapor Tanks around to use the engine for.
 
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More efficient movement from the Vaporcycle design would still be nice. Which is a lesson of it's own the Vapor Tank cannot teach due to it's design including a cannon, and it's tank design.

Maybe more efficient energy usage and vapor engine development will arise from the vaporcycler because the different design created different problems from the Vapor Tank.

Even better if vapor engine design is developed just by taking vaporcyclers instead of creating a action separate to develop the vapor engine with only the Vapor Tanks around to use the engine for.
Sorry but I just do not see the way you do.
The vapor tank having a canon does nothing for the engine because it's not a steam canon. It's a bull canon, ie it uses gunpowder.

The fact is that we already had a separate prototype for a vapor engine before creating a tank and creating a tank did not in fact refined the desing much.

Therefore the way i read the situation it means that going after cycle first would basically be doing things backward.
 
Just trying to solve different problems with the Vapor Engine systems in general will be good for our engineering folks. The more different ways we use it, the more different ways we build it, the more different form factors we give it all means better understanding of how it works, what kind of tolerances it can handle, the materials involved, and all the rest. Its all institutional knowledge we can use to solve new problems. Eventually we might even manage to get something going that doesn't require a Master Engineer to operate, just maintain.

Heck just using the things will do some of the work, as our Engineers figure out how maintaining it works in the field, they get used to it and the like. Make new tools specifically to make their work on it easier based off their experiences. Notice different inefficiencies or other issues with the design as they use it in battle. All that kinda stuff adds up over time. Give it another decade or two and we'll probably be having an action for an updated Vapor Tank with new designs, alloys, or the like to make them even better.

Or have it happen naturally as it takes an action to build each one? Though possible we'll either run out of master engineers to make them, or make enough of them in a row to make it no longer cost an action to do it? We'll have to see how that goes.
 
Oh plus there's the option to build more schools within Wulfenburg itself, that should also just improve the number of incoming engineers which should help long term as well. More people, more ideas. Though that likely won't pay off for years after it gets completed. But it'll keep paying off long term.

Not precisely, actually. That would require rezoning, buying out properties, and so on, and also the vast majority of all the engineers are pretty good in the main school. The school is absolutely enormous, with multiple floors, and a quite expansive floor plan. It would be more economical to expand that, rather than trying to go elsewhere in the city. At this point, the Smokelands are already pretty much your 'industrial sector' in Wulfenburg, and while it would again cost money to buy out and build up, it would be a lot more easy to do it inside the Smokelands than elsewhere. Which would just mean growing the school proper. But, yes, that would take time to do, and then to increase your overall master engineer numbers - but also that sort of thing is also naturally occurring as it genuinely just takes time to study and learn that much. At the current rate of vapor tank construction, you're really not in any danger of running out of master engineers to command them.
 
Hmm...... @torroar Speaking of ogre sailors, I was thinking of a maritime mercenary group consisting of two large war galleons.

Would it be a problem if one of the features of the mercenary group is an ogre deckhand? I'm thinking of him as a sort of assault leader or heavy weapon gunner.

P.S. Also, did my last submission for a maritime mercenary group get rejected?

P.S 2: If you're going to be commenting on an invention or upcoming technology, I have a question for you

Do we have balloon or airship technology or have it been the subject of research?
If not, I think hot air balloons and airships will be very important in the future.
 
At this point, the Smokelands are already pretty much your 'industrial sector' in Wulfenburg, and while it would again cost money to buy out and build up, it would be a lot more easy to do it inside the Smokelands than elsewhere.
Sabine would certainly get behind that, streamline things so whole area is devoted to production and make sure if any large fires break out won't burn a large number of homes.

I'm sure if she had her way she would rezone all of Wulfenburg to be as economically efficient as possible.
 
Hmm...... @torroar Speaking of ogre sailors, I was thinking of a maritime mercenary group consisting of two large war galleons.

Would it be a problem if one of the features of the mercenary group is an ogre deckhand? I'm thinking of him as a sort of assault leader or heavy weapon gunner.

P.S. Also, did my last submission for a maritime mercenary group get rejected?

P.S 2: If you're going to be commenting on an invention or upcoming technology, I have a question for you

Do we have balloon or airship technology or have it been the subject of research?
If not, I think hot air balloons and airships will be very important in the future.

Well, as I've mentioned, due to the current timeline of the quest, I'm not actually approving the creation and establishment of any mercenary group right now. Because at the moment, Kislev bought all of them. Literally all that were not already locked into longstanding unbreakable contracts. So right now, all the mercenaries on the mercenary list are 'accounted for' in the War of Bitter Ice. Once the overall Arc concludes, then I will be reopening such things for closer examination and approval. I haven't rejected most of those brought up so far, but neither am I currently accepting them. The reason for that is because of how the world may or may not be altered/changed by the results of this arc. For instance, someone making a Kislev merc band might have to either change or just not create it due to how things in Kislev might shake out. That sort of thing, you know?

Balloons are a rare technology and invention at the moment, but are not totally unknown. The dwarfs, after all, have their thunderbarges. Which are literally armored zeppelins. Leonardo di Miragliano died trying to work on flight machines and such. By Total War Warhammer, you can even see some balloons connected by ropes and/or chains in Imperial settlements, I believe. But these are largely smaller ones. If we're talking full on Cathayan Sky Junks and such? That's something else altogether.
 
...I don't know any other way to tell you this other than, uh, the front page?

Ostland School of Gunnery and Engineering, the first of its kind in the Empire, based off of the separated counterparts to the south, the Ostland School of Gunnery and Engineering is a Chartered set of connected facilities built along, on, and through the river that runs through Wulfenburg, the capital of Ostland. [Founded in 2309 IC]

Keyword, Chartered.
 
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