Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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Oh, also, admittedly, I was pretty staunchly 'no' on any case of Natasha being able to have the Light of Summer have any effect on her. I mean, let alone the fact that she is so very Winter in aspect that it sorta bumps up against the nature of the Wood Elves and their own whole deal. At the same time, I hadn't really envisioned the soul bond yet at that time, it was literal years between the ideas and creations.

So, honestly, I could maybeeeee see if Sunweaver could try and modify the talisman, but at the same time, any modification attempts run the risk of messing up the whole magical framework and mechanisms at the same time.

It's kind of tricky to speculate on, honestly, given the sheer level of esoteric metaphysics we're discussing at that point.
 
torroar said:
Oh, also, admittedly, I was pretty staunchly 'no' on any case of Natasha being able to have the Light of Summer have any effect on her. I mean, let alone the fact that she is so very Winter in aspect that it sorta bumps up against the nature of the Wood Elves and their own whole deal. At the same time, I hadn't really envisioned the soul bond yet at that time, it was literal years between the ideas and creations.

So, honestly, I could maybeeeee see if Sunweaver could try and modify the talisman, but at the same time, any modification attempts run the risk of messing up the whole magical framework and mechanisms at the same time.

It's kind of tricky to speculate on, honestly, given the sheer level of esoteric metaphysics we're discussing at that point.
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What if Natasha is pregnant at the time she is using Light of Summer? she would be carrying the blood of Freddy's line thus in theory an applicable user
 
I ask this out of ignorance, if there a bond with forest and Freddy to heal and is a bond that is Freddy and Natasha that, among other things, make him being capable of touching her.

Would not be a better idea to try to request/buy from them another (bond focus)magical item to be put on Natasha? one that use ?narrative? of slowing adapting trees (with a huge amount of time) to colder weathers? Because this seems like a apples to oranges kind of problem.

I do not know if this bond idea would look like a adaption or evolution like thing but I would hope (once more out of ignorance) that a second bond item could slowing adapt the healing using the bond.
 
mmgaballah said:
What if Natasha is pregnant at the time she is using Light of Summer? she would be carrying the blood of Freddy's line thus in theory an applicable user
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Wouldn't work like that. Either the LoS would heal only the baby or not at all work.

The Light of Summer is a mix of blood, soul, and magic, in a complex intertwined thing. It works by pulling on Laurelorn to heal Freddy and any of his descendants, and on Freddy to pay for his healing. This direct connection allows something like Freddy suddenly dying with the equivalent of a arcane fulcrum in his soul to get some of it's magic shoved into Laurelorn while being deep underground and relatively far away from Laurelorn.

adamashield said:
I ask this out of ignorance, if there a bond with forest and Freddy to heal and is a bond that is Freddy and Natasha that, among other things, make him being capable of touching her.

Would not be a better idea to try to request/buy from them another (bond focus)magical item to be put on Natasha? one that use ?narrative? of slowing adapting trees (with a huge amount of time) to colder weathers? Because this seems like a apples to oranges kind of problem.

I do not know if this bond idea would look like a adaption or evolution like thing but I would hope (once more out of ignorance) that a second bond item could slowing adapt the healing using the bond.
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No real point, disregarding the benefits of Natasha getting a healing item. Natasha is not typically a direct combatant. Typically we have access to magic healers on our campaigns, and there's unlikely to be a time this 'event' where we get Natasha a healing item.

After this 'event', there won't likely be a point where Natasha will go into combat like this again. If the dark elves are dealt with, the beastmen are put down for a decade, and the greenskins get a number reduction.

The price to create the Light of Summer was also expensive, and not really repeatable.
torroar said:
Magic Items, in general, are meant to be extremely costly things in Warhammer. This takes more from the WHRP itself than from, say, the TT where it's just a general points cost to equip a fancy banner or sword or what have you that is magically within your ability to obtain with said points. As noted by Bruna, funnily enough, the most incredible magical items that the Dynasty proper possesses were purchased not with gold, but with blood, sorrow, fury, etc.

But in truth, each and every one of those things were extremely expensive to make, in materials and in labor. It is by virtue of things like Karak Ungor and the deeds done therein that got Magnus his hammer, Frederick his gauntlet, Urgdug his club. Things like saving the Throne of Power itself and the Dammaz Kron chained to it, like helping destroy the false Throne of Power, fighting alongside the High King, escaping together alongside the White Dwarf, fighting and slaughtering so many grobi and thaggoraki like Magnus. Things like literally saving the High Realm of Laurelorn at the Battle of the Bone Gate with a paltry amount of forces despite all thoughts to the contrary in terms of possibility getting the Light of Summer. And that took some materials that Sunweaver literally doesn't have anymore. It took some finite and rare and powerful reagents to craft. Same with Bokdrungni and Rikrikkazenar, especially in fact.

But straight up power warding an entire major building site, not just like a single shop, but an entire Castle and it's grounds, or the repeatedly noted as massive School of Gunnery and Engineering, against a bunch of different threats?

Expensive. Very expensive. As noted, the prices aren't even just like, for labor, but for literal reagents and other things like that which are difficult to procure, produce, etc.

The Magic College Campuses in Altdorf are some of the most insanely warded places in the Old World, but that's because that's where the vast majority of the wizards are. Individual towers and what not are also likely warded to the best abilities of the wizards within, but again, personal place they spend a lot of time in, and generally single locations. Even their smaller campuses or what not have the aid of being regularly reinforced by the wizards within them. Setting up a long-term warding system with the knowledge that the wizards might not be around all the time to regularly reinforce them means that different steps have to be taken to make sure they really sink in. Like, really sink in. Aethryrically. Metaphysically.

Alternatively, Bruna is deliberately high-balling you so that she can get even more money to throw at her College's growing hidden network of anti-crime, anti-corruption, anti-villains, magic super spies, because how could you possibly know otherwise as to the specific costs and requirements of wards that the Grey College would be setting up? Even the other Colleges wouldn't be able to estimate that very well.

Or maybe she's being totally upfront about it.

Who knows?
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torroar said:
Protective Amulets: You have heard tale that Shallyans are the ones to look to for true healing and protection, more so than the priests of Sigmar. Which is fair, as the latter are more suited to bashing skulls and healing battlefield wounds. Also, there isn't as much of the doctrinal rivalry by Ulric or Sigmar against Shallya. As such, it may be prudent to look into getting the assistance of some Shallyan's to bless amulets for your people as you head into the plague filled Nordland. The only issue is that Ostland has a bit of a dearth when it comes to priestesses of Shallya, so it would be difficult to find any, and more so to get some capable of doing what you are requesting. Cost: 100. Time: 1 Year. Reward: Protective Shallyan Amulets. Chance of Success: 55% Required: 45. Rolled: 69+20=89

- You went to the small and humble temple to Shallya in Wulfenburg to make your request. Understandably surprised at your presence, it took a bit of time for them to process it. Unfortunately there would be no way for them to outfit every single one of your soldiers with protection. So you don't. Instead, you make the pragmatic and admittedly somewhat cold choice to get protective amulets for the various commanders of your forces. As in you, Natasha, her Ice Mage instructors, and the commanders of the various allied detachments like Johanna Fuerbach. Unfortunately it seems that these amulets will not provide inviolable protection, as you might have hoped, but they will be much better than nothing. Reward: Protective Shallyan Amulets for Hero/Commander Units.
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100 gold for protective Shallyan amulets. Inflation... Technically they were not magic, and not for everyone. But, 100 gold! Ah, to be so young, and remember the good ol days. Times were hard then.
 
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torroar said:
Norscans, as well, are especially pious. It drenches everything they do. Like, a lot of regular Imperials will offer up a prayer before doing something, but they aren't going to perceive the Hound in every clash of steel or drop of blood spilled, or every clever thought or plot they have to Tzeentch, and so on and so on. Regular Priests of the Empire, sure, will be thinking about and invoking their Gods a lot more, maybe even a 'Thank Sigmar for this meal I'm about to eat' and so on, but Norscans really really think about honoring their Gods all the time, whether immediately or doing something to help them do it in the future. All victories, all honor, all joys and ills are ascribed in some manner or another towards their Gods.
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Does this mean that a theoretical Norscan character would have a comically high piety stat or would this characteristic be mechanically represented by a trait?
 
With all these talks about Natasha and LoS got me thinking. torroar if you wouldn't mind answering back in Lovely Laurelorn did Naraiel/Eonir look into Ancient Widow after Natasha did her thing with their waystone? I remember Naraiel saying she never saw something like that in her long life. So did they make any inquiries towards that or they had better things to do ?
 
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Stephen9001 said:
I wonder if this might get updated, to something like "available in extremely limited and finite supply due to the looting of a Black Ark."
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Hultressa could possibly settle close to the border with Kislev/near Natasha and start a winery there to supply ostland with the stuff.

Would be the best place to settle if she wants monster supplies as well.

I don't see her settling with the elves. Even with Everqueen+Ariel support. That feels like it would end badly for her. Bad blood is bad blood. Maybe the Eonir might take her in if only for nordland/ostland relations.
 
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torroar said:
In another case, a certain Verenan, it took the rest of the warband getting stomped out, captured, horrifically tortured, experimented on, and eaten, all without the Dark Gods intervening or aiding them, even when some of them killed themselves as sacrifices to hopefully bring some sort of aid to their fellow tribesman. Instead, despite all that praying, only one was left, and he was in absolute shambles when a woman strode in out of the fires haloed in a soft blue and silver light - a color utterly foreign to the skaven underhold he was imprisoned in. And she spoke, and informed him of her Goddess, and in his rage he cast aside his previous Gods and took up a new one.
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Blackout said:
And most Norscans would very much not leave the Chaos Gods if given the chance, because if they would they already could have and haven't, but also because we've seen they won't, in Marienburg. In Nordland it took generations upon generations of intermarriage and concerted effort to get the Norscan settlers to abandon the Four, but in Marienburg's Norsetown we saw what happens when you put Norscans in an environment where worshipping the Chaos Gods is frowned upon but nobody is actively trying to convert them: they remain Chaos worshippers, they just stay quiet about it.
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I think my point was misunderstood. It isn't about being devout or not, it is a matter of proximity to me. Faith is such a huge part of this world, and where they are is closer to the Chaos gates. To the average imperial they pray, they are pious to the god of their choice but for most it isn't an overwhelming presence. If we are going with the theory that seems supported by most literature that the realms of Chaos are also where the gods reside than Norscan's by definition are more at risk. They see the touch of the four everywhere because they are so uber-powerful that the Norsii who fled to the peninsula were faced with a harsh and unforgiving landscape so they turned to the loudest voices.

To me at least and I apologize if it wasn't super clear I just didn't want to make it a long post. They reflect the Chaos Gods, they see signs and portents in nearly every action because they encompass so many concepts. However just as the Gods hate the forces of order, they also hate each other with just as much gusto. The average Norscan isn't receiving blessings, empowerment, vision quests, aid, or guidance. They have the generational hatred instilled in them by the defeat of Morkar the Uniter sure, but to them the followers of the weak southern gods aren't some existental threat. But when your tribe/warband or whatever organization it is follows Khorne and runs into Tzeentch band? The conflict the gods have is reflected in the world. The only time you see conflict not break out is by someone powerful enough to make them cooperate. Usually an Everchosen or a particularly cunning warlord.

From the view of an average Norscan, let's say a hunter who feeds the tribe. They follow Slaanesh, sure they everything they get to do as a follower, but they aren't going to fall over themselves trying to please him/her. The higher you rise the harder the fall, and examples can be seen. Chaos spawn, the abandonment at key moments, an underling now just as favored. To them a relationship with the gods is a fearful devoutness, the corrupted and debased follow without hesitation, the sane know the price. I feel the grand majority who don't regularly raid or trade (and let's be honest these two groups are most likely the same people) they do the whole march with Everchosen, when they are called to follow they will. The ones who would leave just don't because they seem to understand having a god who you don't have to prove your worth to. Such a god must be weak, why would they want followers who haven't done anything to deserve attention?

To me at least the Norscans don't so much choose to follow the Chaos Gods so much as what choice do they have outside of them? Make an enemy of all four and they will send their followers to make sure you regret it. They are right on the doorstep and the Gods have active influence in the area? It doesn't feel like they are really devoted so much as understand that their relationship with the Chaos Gods are... transactional. Piousness implies a certain level of worship. Most of what the Norscan's do at least appears more like appeasement. They have a presence and the ability to make me hurt, better follow them than another.

That being said, I understand that you aren't going to change that and as far as the story goes it will go to them being extremely devout. 2000 years of sitting on Chaos's doorstep gives you one hell of a stockholm syndrome.
 
NutMaster said:
With all these talks about Natasha and LoS got me thinking. torroar if you wouldn't mind answering back in Lovely Laurelorn did Naraiel/Eonir look into Ancient Widow after Natasha did her thing with their waystone? I remember Naraiel saying she never saw something like that in her long life. So did they make any inquiries towards that or they had better things to do ?
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Well, considering what she did to Coeddil, uh, the answer to that would be no. Her sheer presence is intensely uncomfortable for Asrai and Eonir both. Winter, in general, sort of weakens/slows/is just not comfy for them to be in and around. Literally, their very lives and souls wax and wane with the seasons. Winter is a waning time for them. They wouldn't try to scrutinize the Widow too closely because that's sort of essentially like trying to poke your head into the Elephant Foot in Chernobyl. They already know it's no good for them.

iggyfan said:
Does this mean that a theoretical Norscan character would have a comically high piety stat or would this characteristic be mechanically represented by a trait?
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I would say it would be represented with a high base piety, with an additional trait which would increase the stat increase from any subsequent piety traits as compared to how others would have them to represent both how they just start as pious people and then are heavily indoctrinated from birth in their ancient culture to consider the Gods in every moment and event. And they'd also likely gain multiple piety traits quite rapidly as they are growing up. Very rarely do Norscans ever get less faithful in their beliefs, it's just that they can sometimes change those beliefs with extreme shocks - i.e. for instance possibly seeking out another of the Chaos Gods over the others, or the other examples I've shown. Not a one raised Norscan in the beginning would ever go Necoho, for instance, which I know isn't saying much given how few worship him in the first place, but still.

hugo239111 said:
words
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And again, I don't see it as a fearful devoutness either. They find plenty of things good about the Chaos Gods. Tzeentch to provide hope and cleverness, Khorne the strength and power to defend your home and to gain glory and treasure for your people, Nurgle his resilience no matter what, Slaanesh joy and expressive culture, etc. The Chaos Gods have made them strong and powerful, and that's just undeniable, and a lot of them enjoy that. 'The sane know the price' and the price is one they're more than willing to pay because they don't see it like some transactional thing??? Nothing so mundane. I wasn't misspeaking when I said they are intensely pious people. I disagree fundamentally that you say they just see it as appeasement, when it is very much not that. It is glorifying. It is joyous. It is pride to praise them better than another. It is familial, ancestral, and interconnected with all they do. It is the Chaos Gods that are the final and only real truth, and they in turn are worshipped for it to them, not because 'oh no please don't hurt me' appeasement. The only times they try to appease the Gods is when they feel like they have already failed them, not something to do out of turn or as a regular matter of course. They often try to please the Gods, but that's not the same as appeasement. One is fearful and hopeful of avoiding punishment, the much more often reality is just trying to gain favor and gifts, something which has tangibly worked out for plenty of them.

I don't think it's Stockholm Syndrome. They're not hostages. They are those who willingly, for one reason or another, are servants and slaves to the Dark Gods. Because they want power, because power was offered to them, or vengeance, or glory, or strength, or resistance to sickness, for pleasure and good feelings, for magic and knowledge, and a million sundry other things that has for better or worse created a stable culture which regularly and thoroughly worships and glorifies their Gods for all they do. Not because they're being kept there, and not because they don't see other options. Because the vast majority of them see their current situation as the best possible situation, because it isn't the Norscans in a bad spot, it's everyone else who is ignorant, stupid, weak, faithless, and defiant to the real way things are. It's everyone else who have stockholm syndrome to their Gods, if we have to go that direction at all, which we really don't. And while there are plenty of Tribes that go more towards one God or another, in general, culturally, they specifically try to worship all the Gods equally as Chaos Undivided. One of the newest 4E infobooks refers to a Nurgle Champion whose tribe literally wants to leave and go raid the south because he's bringing too much Nurgle influence and they really prefer to worship equally.

I just sorta disagree a lot with your ideas and interpretation, sorry.
 
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torroar said:
And they'd also likely gain multiple piety traits quite rapidly as they are growing up. Very rarely do Norscans ever get less faithful in their beliefs, it's just that they can sometimes change those beliefs with extreme shocks - i.e. for instance possibly seeking out another of the Chaos Gods over the others, or the other examples I've shown.
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Like a certain knight of Verena who wasn't afraid to take her cult's most extreme penance ritual to seek her blessing and support.

Still funny to see a former worshipper of chaos get so into it with the right guidance.
 
torroar said:
I don't think it's Stockholm Syndrome. They're not hostages. They are those who willingly, for one reason or another, are servants and slaves to the Dark Gods. Because they want power, because power was offered to them, or vengeance, or glory, or strength, or resistance to sickness, for pleasure and good feelings, for magic and knowledge, and a million sundry other things that has for better or worse created a stable culture which regularly and thoroughly worships and glorifies their Gods for all they do. Not because they're being kept there, and not because they don't see other options. Because the vast majority of them see their current situation as the best possible situation, because it isn't the Norscans in a bad spot, it's everyone else who is ignorant, stupid, weak, faithless, and defiant to the real way things are. It's everyone else who have stockholm syndrome to their Gods, if we have to go that direction at all, which we really don't. And while there are plenty of Tribes that go more towards one God or another, in general, culturally, they specifically try to worship all the Gods equally as Chaos Undivided. One of the newest 4E infobooks refers to a Nurgle Champion whose tribe literally wants to leave and go raid the south because he's bringing too much Nurgle influence and they really prefer to worship equally.

I just sorta disagree a lot with your ideas and interpretation, sorry.
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No I understand, to be honest my interpretation is a very armchair historian interpretation. I am judging it based off beliefs and morals that don't have an effective mirror in the world. I don't understand the pressures or influences of a life lived on Mallus. Its not even an argument I believe in particularly strongly, its an easy catch all in a very good vs evil look at it. I've never seen any information on the chaos undivided worship, most references I've seen seem that they group and clash in frequent events. (EG: plague fleet getting attack by Tzeentch fleet). It is an interesting idea though, not looking at it in a sense of four chaos gods in constant competition. It could be considered a reflection of their inspiration in Norse culture, a sort of spiritual animist reflection onto the gods. The ravens were sent by Odin, Thor's will is reflected in lightning.

It's not a position that I am digging my heels in by any means, the pressures of magic and the fact that the whole gods have real influence in tangible blessings gives any moralistic/modernist argument on psychologies a certain degree of weirdness.
 
Really the amazing thing is that more of humanity doesn't worship the Chaos Gods.

I put it down to worship of Chaos just not being good for trying to run a coherent state that can successfully pass power from elites to their children, raise organized armies, and otherwise win group-versus-group fights.
 
Massgamer said:
Like a certain knight of Verena who wasn't afraid to take her cult's most extreme penance ritual to seek her blessing and support.

Still funny to see a former worshipper of chaos get so into it with the right guidance.
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Second best example are the Norscans converted by Lizardman.

They went in so hard, they actually managed to manifest parts of their power.

The Albion will be still giving them a stinkeye but I think they'll begrudgingly approve of it.

Speaking of which, I don't suppose we can have an interlude or omake featuring our Albion friends? Kind of want to see how they're doing.
 
hugo239111 said:
've never seen any information on the chaos undivided worship, most references I've seen seem that they group and clash in frequent events
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"...I pity you and all the world, that of all the races of Men, for the Gods favour we Norse alone."
—Haubr, Norseman

Bayl's Warband Notes On Norse Worship
The Sarl need to be tough to survive in this noxious place, and many of them beseech the Chaos gods to lend them the power to prevail against the hazards of the land and the monsters that lurk within it. In particular they leave offerings to the god they know as the Grandfather, who offers them the resilience theyneed to withstand harms and endure privations. They call him by many names, such as Neiglen, the Fly Lord, or the Plaguefather. Bayl of the Sarl has no need for such coy euphemisms. He is devoted to Nurgle and beseeches him openly. His warband are a tribe within a tribe, drawing to them members of the Sarl norse whose devotion to Nurgle is particularly zealous. They are unusual amongst the Sarl, who prefer to appeal to all the gods of Chaos. Bayl's single-minded devotion to the Plague God provides him with a niche within Sarl society, as he can muster his coterie of the likeminded. However it also makes him vulnerable, as his fellow tribesfolk worry that to encourage the worship of Nurgle above the other gods of Chaos risks costing them the favour of Khorne, Slannesh, and Tzeentch. Recently Bayl has gathered his warband together and headed south, proclaiming that he is on a mission to please the Plaguefather. This has been greeted with a mixture of dismay and relief by the Sarl. On one hand Bayl's mysterious quest deprives them of a force of resilient shock troops. On the other hand, they can reassert the normal habit of unbiased respect for all the gods of Chaos in Bayl's absence.

Kinship to a tribe is vital to an individual Norseman's identity. The tribe provides security, a home, and purpose. To anger one's tribe means being cast out, not only from the settlement, but also from everything he believes. Those few exiles may travel north to seek the favour of the Dark Gods, or become truly despised, heading south for the comfort of the decadent Empire. Unless the exile can prove himself (typically through some fabulous quest), he is forever after seen as an enemy to his people, and should he wander back into his lands once more, his former brethren do all they can to slay him where he stands

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N vs. S
Standing in the shadow of the Chaos Wastes, Norsca is a land touched by Chaos. Whenever the roiling Eye widens, the tongues of darkness lick the dizzying peaks of this frozen land, altering all and everything it touches. As a result, those tribes living on the coast of the Frozen Sea are more deeply affected by Chaos and, as a result, develop more mutations and more variety among their kind than the rest of the Norsemen. In addition, they are quite a bit more savage since they regularly come into conflict with the Kurgan tribes of the Wastes. The Northern Tribes are often at the forefront of the Chaos Incursions, leading the way into the fat lands of the Empire for the Kurgan tribes. They are a brutal and bloodthirsty lot. Merciless, they kill for the love of killing. Northern Tribes include the Graelings, Vargs, and the dreaded Aeslings.

The southern tribes are somewhat milder than their savage brethren to the north. Whilst these barbarians raid and plunder like all the rest, it is from these tribes that new efforts for peaceful communications originate. They raid when necessary for survival, but are more interested in acts of heroism and adventure over the carnal slaughter embraced by their kin. This said, during the Chaos Incursions, these Norsemen banded together to wage war against the Empire as it was demanded by their Gods. Refusing the call of battle is grounds for annihilation. Among the southern tribes are counted the Bjornlings, Skaelings, Baersonlings, and Sarls. Though seen as more civilised than their northern neighbours, they still fight with rival tribes. In fact, the Bjornlings are fierce rivals with the Graelings, and the Sarls regularly fight the Aeslings and Baersonlings.

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On what the most ideal Norscan is, regardless of South or Northern tribe.

The ideal person in Norscan culture is the young, virile slayer. He's courageous, skilled, and tough. He is the warrior. He is the hunter, the defender, the raider, and the hero. He defines the youthful aspirations of the young. Skalds recount his exploits in song and tale to the rapt children who dream of one day joining the other warriors, fighting not only for honour and glory but for the respect of their ancestors and the favour of the Dark Gods.
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And this section, quite possibly most important of all - on Norscan Spirituality/Piety, straight from the Tome of Corruption Sourcebook from 2E

To most, the Norsemen are nothing more than bloodthirsty barbarians, no different from the savage peoples of the Chaos Wastes. Admittedly, many Norsemen embrace the same forces of decay, blood, and death as the Kurgan and the Hung, but their culture is more than an endless series of battles. They have a rich society with traditions passed down intact since the time of Sigmar. They are unsullied by the machinations and plotting that so plagues the Empire, being free spirits who form a nation built upon the foundations of honour, loyalty, and respect.

A Spiritual World
The Norsemen live in two worlds: one is visible, tangible; the other is the world of spirits and Daemons, lying just beyond the senses. Though current philosophical trends of Tilea and elsewhere emphasise the empirical, that which can be studied and interacted with, the Norse believe what they see around them is the lie, a deception created to test them. Instead, the Spirit World is the truth, and only through the guidance of their mystics and the blessings of their Gods can they penetrate the veil of the senses and peer into the true reality. Since life as experienced by the senses is a deception, the Norsemen do not cling to life like other races. They throw themselves into the thick of combat to show their worthto their Gods and their ancestors, all in the hope of receiving a blessing, or to be plucked from the dream in death by one of the shadowy Warrior Hags to join their fellows in the Halls of Glory. Pain, suffering, and other physical maladies are all illusions and are accepted as part of their existence. It's believed Norsca's proximity to the Chaos Wastes lends itself to this way of thinking. The Shadowlands are strange and ever-changing. An ordinary boulder may stay in the same place for a thousand years, and then one day pick itself up and move to another spot. Birds may fly through the air one moment, and then slither as a serpent on the ground the next. Storms come and go with no warning. The sun may rise or not, and even the very stars seem to change. The world of the north is perpetually in a state of flux, and no laws apply to this land, lending a dreamlike quality to this wild land. Hence, life and death, health and sickness are all just aspects of this great dream they collectively experience. So when a Vitki conjures up a Daemon, the Norsemen believe they are getting a glimpse of reality. And given these essences have mutable forms, it's no great logical leap to suggest the manifestation of mutations is a mark of divine favour—a blessing granted by the Gods to set the chosen apart from the mundane.

Norse Religion

It would be easy to say that the Norsemen worship the Dark Gods, even easier to say that they are a soulless horde with no regard for life or the suffering they cause. It is true Norsemen see mutations as blessings from their Gods, and they festoon their bodies with tattoos and symbols of the Dark Gods to attract their attention, but to say the Norsemen are unthinking slaves to the Ruinous Powers is simply false. The Norsemen see themselves as honest men, strong, mighty, and courageous. And for these virtues, they thank the Gods. They worship the Gods they do because they see their power in all things, and are vividly reminded of their potency. Southern Gods, like Sigmar, are weak in comparison to the primal forces of life and death represented by their deities. To the Norsemen, the blessings of their Gods (e.g. mutations) are the clearest sign of their power, proving to them that the Gods of the Empire are weak and impotent. Norse religion is dynamic and complex, featuring a broad pantheon of Ancestors, Heroes, Daemons, and Gods. The Gods themselves vary from tribe to tribe, but each group of Norsemen embrace a pantheon that reflects four central themes: War, Desire, Decay, and Hope. Norse pantheons rarely feature just a single God per theme, rather they may have several. Instead of a single God of Battle, they might have three: one for wrath, another for death, and a last for excellence in arms. Though they have broad pantheons, Imperial theologians believe these Gods are but aspects of four Dark Gods. They go on to suggest the various heroes are those mortals who likely gained a Mark of Chaos or were transformed into Daemons. Clearly, there are many parallels between the beliefs of the Norse and those upheld by the Kurgan and others in the Chaos Wastes. But some Norsemen also venerate some Imperial Gods like Ulric and Taal, giving the theologians of the Empire no shortage of religious frustrations. Naming all the Norse Gods is impossible, as each community adds their own idols and heroes to the core set of deities worshipped by most Norsemen. Even the most popular divine figures are not universally upheld, since the northern tribes worship the Gods that are closer approximations to the Dark Gods than do the southern tribes. Still, there are some similarities. All pantheons feature a King of the Gods, who reflects the mortal King of the tribe. He is usually a war leader, powerful in battle but also wise. He typically has a wife who upholds womanly concerns such as home and hearth, marriage and motherhood. In addition, there are a number of Gods to represent the elemental forces of fire, water, wind, and earth—these tend to correspond to the four Chaos Gods, one of which is often the trickster God (almost always a parallel to Tzeentch). The rest of the Gods reflect the particular concerns of a community. Add to this hundreds of Hero-Gods and Daemons, and you come close to assembling a typical tribe's pantheon. Curiously, many Norsemen believe in Gods with strong parallels to those worshipped in the Empire, although no Norseman believes in Morr, since the afterlife is closed to all but the most courageous warriors. The Norse versions are always more savage and vicious than their southern counterparts. For example, the Skaeling tribe claims a Daemon God named Mermedus, often believed to be a dark reflection of Manaan, dwells beneath the Sea of Claws. They depict him as a bulbous and ghoulish figure, bloated in death, and covered in bulging eyes. It's said he walks on the sea floor, causing stormy waters to capsize ships and drown sailors. To appease this vile God, the Skaeling make Human and animal sacrifices, casting the weighted bodies down to distract the God from their voyage.

They worship Chaos in an incredibly complex way, it's just that for the vast majority of the time, it is not really communicated to Imperial POVs in most books and what not, because usually it's just a wall of burly men with bare chests in loin cloths with axes coming to do terrible, terrible things to people. But they're more than that. A lot more. It's just that, a lot of that 'more' is through the lens of Chaos being the absolute better deal than anything the other Gods can offer - but yeah, also, you might note that they sometimes also poke towards Taal and Ulric, which is no small theological issue. Yet, even then, they like where they are. If they ever really want to come south and live in the south, it will be at the expense of everyone else there, not because they have 'seen the light' or whatever. Because when they come south, they'll come bearing the mark of Chaos on their brows and the truth of Chaos in their hearts.
 
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MasterDrakus said:
Huh, I thought it was only Sotek who was a god and the rest were extremely evolved beings who simply left, them again even in lore there are supposed reports of rare manifestations from sole of the other ones during times of distress.
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As a rule of thumb: If you belive hard enough that something is a god. the power of belive will make it a thing.
just look at Widow. She was an elemental spirit befor becoming a God.
 
I wouldn't say that, actually.

As to the Old Ones, Freya Blazeheart's action was a perfectly reasonable act of devotion and blessing for Quetzl the Protector's worshippers:

In his writings on his expedition to Lustria, entitled "In the Garden of the Gods", the noted mage of the Jade Order Cyrston von Danling states that he witnessed a punitive raid by a force of Lizardmen upon Port Reaver. The defenders scrambled to man their defences and eventually made ready a number of artillery pieces, which they brought to bear upon the attacking Saurus. A cannonball from the first volley apparently struck the Lizardmen's leader, a mighty Saurus mounted upon the back of a hissing Cold One. As the missile struck, an explosion of multi-hued light burst around the Saurus, blinding many with its dazzling brilliance. The Saurus was quite unharmed, the cannonball having been dissolved to nothing by some magical means. Von Danling states that his own magical sight afforded him a view of the event that those not gifted with the mage's skills were unaware of. According to him, a ghostlike, clawed hand seemed to manifest before the Saurus and physically block the cannonball, transmutating it from mundane matter into the very stuff of magic, whereby it dissipated upon the arcane winds. Von Danling claims to have felt the presence of a being of immeasurabel power, if only for an instant. In that split second he felt utterly humbled and insignificant before a presence of incalculable age and power. Of course, he states he was in the presence of the Old One Quetzl. Most believe that the noted wizard von Danling had spent too long in the sun.

Then there's Tepok, too.

The Dark Elves were, according to the inscription, defeated despite the terrible dark magics unleashed by their sorcerous witch of a leader. Only through Tepok's protection did the Lizardmen force survive her arcane onslaught, walking calmly through violet fire to smash into the Druchii lines and winning the day, slaughtering every last one of the Dark Elves. The witch was thrown into the Mirror Pool of Tepok as a sacrifice to the feathered serpent god of sacred places and it is said that her screaming, cursing face is still visible there to this day, unable to break the surface of the shrines perfectly calm waters

The Old Ones were near-omnipotent beings of immense power and capability. There exists Gods that can obscure things from the Dark God's sight, or repulse their effects and acts upon the world. Like they're near-omnipotent beings of immense power and capability. Sure, Realm of Chaos vs. Old Ones pan-dimensional capabilities.

After a certain point, distinguishing between what is or isn't a God doesn't really matter if the being can do and act as a God might.
 
Yeah. I mean, if you want to really really really get esoteric about it, considering the Old Ones who were nigh omnipotent masters of time and space and dimensions lost/were forced to retreat/straight up got murked by the Chaos Gods...does it matter?

Put another way, two quotes:

1. Even dead Gods can dream.
2. That is not dead which can eternal lie, / And with strange aeons even death may die

Say that the Chaos Gods slew the Old Ones. Killed them outright. Rendered them to nothingness.

Okay.

And yet their protections remain. With devotion and worship their amulets and auras and blessings can still be invoked. The Slanns think they are their Gods. They are the Mage-Priests. They invoke them. Contemplate them. Devote themselves to them. Skinks have no wizards, no sorcerers, no warlocks, no witches. They have Skink Priests. Sotek was concerning because he was new, and they weren't sure if he'd got in properly with the other Old Ones, not because he was some 'better' or 'more' Godly than the others.

So say the Chaos Gods didn't just drive the Old Ones away, that the Slann and Lizardmen race are foolishly praying and believing and beseeching and hoping for the day they return.

Well...and?

Say they're dead.

...and?

They are still called.

And they still answer, here and there, in this way and that. It's not the Grand sweeping cleansing like Isha over Ulthuan or the like, but nevertheless answer they still do on occasion.
 
torroar said:
Say they're dead.

...and?

They are still called.
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Indeed. If the power still comes, what matters if its source if 'dead' or not.

Belief is an honest force in universe after all.

Personally I think that Old Gods were just driven off after their control experiment was 'spoiled' by the Chaos Gods' interference, and are maybe are still observing from far off to see how it does on its own without their direct intervention, if their half-made creations can fight Chaos on own or not. Would fit their detached and scientist-like mindset to me at least.
 
Just because the Gods are dead, doesn't mean that they are fully dead.
Bits of the body can still be alive even after the brain is gone.


To use a Nasuverse example : Melusine is the claw of the dragon Albion that somehow managed to stay alive when the rest of the body died, and she became her own entity. And the rest of the Nasuverse has multiple examples of Gods that were slain, but still had pieces live on afterward. The White Titan Sefar and the Greek Gods are the two other examples I can remember from the top of my head. There's also Cernunnos in the Sixth Lostbelt, but that is a undead god rather than one cut to pieces.

So yeah, it make sense that bit & pieces of the Old Ones can still be enough to answer prayers even if the rest of the divine being is dead.
 
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torroar said:
SNIP
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Is it just me, or are the Norse just...kinda better at tolerating theological stuff diverging as long as the core essence of the gods' is kept compared to the humans of Order? We have Khorne split into three and such, and it doesn't seem said tribes are getting exterminated for heresy for that. But, for example, if someone tried to say that Taal and Rhya are actually the same god/dess who shapeshifts, that Sigmar was a crossdressing woman, that Shayalla is a goth like her dad instead of wearing white etc, then they'd likely get killed by some fanatic.
 
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