I too would prefer a solid decision from us. Natasha explicitly said it's ok, whatever we choose, for something this significant.

I get all the love dovey stuff, and most other times I'd agree, but you guys do realize that an attack from the Beastmen, who do a bunch of ritualistic and shamanic shit, is imminent, and that the one leading that attack is MALAGOR, one of the strongest spellcasters currently living in the Old World, and the undisputed current strongest Bray-Shaman? If there's anyone that could exploit that connection to do some truly heinous shit to Natasha, it's probably him. It was literally explicitly said that powerful and perceptive magical beings could pick up on and exploit that bond, and he checks all three of those boxes about as hard as anyone possibly could. This is the worst possible time to do something like this, at least to Bedrock level. I could tolerate Subsoil, but Bedrock is just...ASKING for him to do something horrible to Natasha in a desperate grasp at revenge against us and our line in the final climactic clash of the campaign.
No use of OOC info just because the turn vote is done.
 
I get all the love dovey stuff, and most other times I'd agree, but you guys do realize that an attack from the Beastmen, who do a bunch of ritualistic and shamanic shit, is imminent, and that the one leading that attack is MALAGOR, one of the strongest spellcasters currently living in the Old World, and the undisputed current strongest Bray-Shaman? If there's anyone that could exploit that connection to do some truly heinous shit to Natasha, it's probably him. It was literally explicitly said that powerful and perceptive magical beings could pick up on and exploit that bond, and he checks all three of those boxes about as hard as anyone possibly could. This is the worst possible time to do something like this, at least to Bedrock level. I could tolerate Subsoil, but Bedrock is just...ASKING for him to do something horrible to Natasha in a desperate grasp at revenge against us and our line in the final climactic clash of the campaign.
The world is ALWAYS on fire. Something like Malagor is always a threat. Hell if Malektih got a hold of us or Nat he'd do a LOT worse and abuse it a lot worse than Malagor does, and he's out there waiting kinda pissed at us for handing the high elves a arcane fulcrum. Hell Vampires could easily subvert their link with their mind control magic too. There is ALWAYS going to be an issue, this isn't about that, it's about how deeply the players see Frederick and Natasha's love for each other. Because at the end of the day it is HIGHLY likely Freddie is going to die horribly no matter what and we have so many enemies whoa re so incredibly far beyond us magically the link will always be under threat, assuming our enemies are dedicated enough and give enough of a shit about us to try and exploit us.
 
We can also just say no. I don't think we should for a number of reasons including not being overly paranoid when a friend offers to do magicy stuff for us but it's on there.
 
Whatever decision we make, it shouldn't be based on the upcoming Beastmen War/The Fact That Freddy Will Die Someday/Metagaming Reasons.
 
@CuriousRaptor
I'd like to think it wouldn't be easy to subvert it if Yhanna is bringing her A-Game to this.
Point is, any enemy big name who has magic, or any coalition of enemies who are GOOD at magic, could with enough time and pre, use it against us or Nat, and we're GOING to keep having to fight such entities on the regular because Mallus is a death world.

Dark Elves
Skaven
Beastmen
Vampire
Chaos

The only out and out enemy faction who lacks a way to attempt to exploit it are the Greenskins, who'd just kill us instead. So regardless, we will always be fighting foes who could with enough time, enough effort, enough care and attention, could affect the link and use it. Just like our entire family could die next turn to some sort of bullshit overpowered cultist ploy, a Chaos Sorceror learning the spell "NUCLEAR BLAST" and throwing it at Wulfenburg for a test run, Skaven collapsing all of Ostland into the Underempire and killing everyone in a literal rocks fall situation, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum. Being scared because one Legendary spell caster, who is not even focused on Freddie right now, might capture us, torture us and figure out a way to use it if he gives enough of a shit to not obliterate us outright with a thought instead, is fear mongering, because such concerns are ubiquitous along every timeline, and because of how immensely unlikely someone on that level would focus on an Elector count exclusively to do so when he has other targets of greater import, Like Magnus, Ar-Ulric Logan, the Grand Theogonist, Every other Elector count, and more.

Freddy is an important lad, but he's a high mid tier player in the grand scheme of things.
 
Hmmm. You know? I can put it in as an option.

Clearly I'm too tired from the whole '2 hours of sleep' thing, because I'm getting some reactions I wasn't quite expecting. I thought a neat bond thing that could help with one of the main character's consistently core concerns would be a cool reward thing, regardless of the tier, but some do not...think that it is...that.

Hrm.

My bad, I guess, ya'll. I'll try to do better going forward.
its fuckin great man. I havent read the discussion because i dont have the executive function to do so but i think this update was really cool, and the offer very insightful on Sunweaver's part. You did good.
Edit: I caught up from this post and my opinion hasn't changed.
 
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This definitely seems like a situation of people making a mountain out of a molehill here.

We were entirely content to have no reward for what was done in Laurelorn beyond helping Order, but now that Natasha makes use of a boon from a friend (and Yhanna is a friend, regardless of whatever weird elf bullshit is going on with her) people are getting into a fit over lost opportunities? It just seems very...petty.

I can understand all the argument for how deep this bond should go (even if I favor Bedrock because I feel it best encapsulates Freddy and Nat's relationship together), but arguing over why this is offered at all instead of some shiny new toy for Freddy seems to be a little off base.
 
Go big or go home in this. I one for the extreme and Freddy boy have always do the best for his wife.

The widow do suppressed the wife emotion the more time passed. And i just worried that 1 day her emotion is push so far down she be nothing but a cold hush.
 
Okay, look, the last two things are literally in no friggin' way Frederick's fault. NOBODY, Questers and QM included, expected Karak Ungor to drag on as much as it did and run for such a long time. And as for Drycha: Really? That's your Argument? Dude, NO ONE COULD'VE FORESEEN THAT THINGS WOULD ESCALATE THIS BADLY. We didn't even mean to get dragged into the World Roots.

I really don't get why some People recently are seemingly trying to make Frederick out to be the worst Person ever. He has Flaws, sure, and his Flaws have Consequences, but he is ultimately still a good Person.

So after a much calming puppy walk, I'd like to clarify.

Fredrick is brave. Fredrick is compassionate. Fredrick wants to make this world a better place, to a mind-boggling degree. He loves his family and he obviously loves his wife.

Further, I feel certain that most people here adored her character at the beginning she pounded back a beer when she first met him.

I genuinely think Fredrick is a great person.
Just like most people he has both good and the bad qualities. I don't think he would ever intentionally neglect or try to hurt his wife in any way.

Likewise Natasha both admires and adores Fredrick. Her request after Dwarf Vietnam was to spend more time with her. After decades of marriage and kids she still loves him.

This isn't about intentions. It isn't about what or how we think of her. When it comes down to it, Fredrick (the questers), don't think about her feelings when the fate of the old world is at stake.

Fredrick is a hero. His very self image is someone who stands against the darkness for those he loves and protects.

He constantly puts himself on the line because he knows it is what he does best. He does it to squash threats
to his family before they metastasize like cancer.

She is afraid of us dieing. She doesn't want to live a life without her husband. She also acknowledges that his being a hero is part of why she loves him.

But not being with someone you care about when they go through hard times is damaging.

She has expressed her concerns and needs twice as far as I remember.

After the first lothlorien we decided, with Stephen, that as a character we couldn't stay out of the action when we could help. Morai wen gave us that strength potion specifically because we couldn't stay still if we knew we could help.

Natasha now accepts that. But she has been worried about her husband for the better part of two decades. Regardless of intentions or any extenuating circumstances, she has had to go through several traumatic events without her husband for support.

That sort of stuff leaves damage on someone. She comes across here as a anxious bundle of nerves.

She needs to know we love her. Not in a "OH that's so romantic" way. She needs to know he will be there for her.


When I said their relationship was toxic, I never meant to say he was a toxic person.

It is a trope that some of the greatest men and heros had failing marriages, because they didn't make time for their wife. Because they consistently put their wife's needs second.

I love this quest and I love Torrar. I also know that this kind of heated argument is agonizing to him, so I would like to end it after your, or someone else's, response.

Initially I just wanted to bring up this point. In actuality all I did was flip the metaphorical table.
 
Point is, any enemy big name who has magic, or any coalition of enemies who are GOOD at magic, could with enough time and pre, use it against us or Nat, and we're GOING to keep having to fight such entities on the regular because Mallus is a death world.
To be fair, most factions good at magic on that level don't need an exploitable weakness against us and they could still kidnap Freddy or Nat to do bad things without bond.

I'm personally of the opinion of going all in on bedrock since that is their love and dealing with troubles as they come as we have been doing. No defense is perfect and sometimes you just gotta roll with the punches as they come up.
 
None of these options are going to change her opinion of us. Their relationship is too strong and developed for some magic bond to change it in any way.

Like, Topsoil and Subsoil aren't declarations that Freddy loves her any less than if he'd picked bedrock, it's just a difference in what we think we can risk.

No claims they don't need some magical bond to affirm their commitment, but choosing Yes also claims that they don't need some magic bond to reaffirm their commitment, at least in my opinion. The latters choosing to use said bond as a 'physical' marker to each other that they are alive, and at higher levels allows them to actually feel their love for each other (and when they're each in danger). Higher levels are also more risky, but it's silly to claim it means he loves her more than the other options.
 
My bad, I guess, ya'll. I'll try to do better going forward.

It's all you can do. Like, for what it's worth I actually do like the bond thing. As a gift to a friend it works, and I can tell Sunweaver is being casual from the attitude of the apprentices. It's just soul anything is big for me and Natasha being surprised rung some warning bells. Sorry.
Guys have yall learned ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from the white flame incident. The last time we took this kind of choice away from her she wouldn't see us for like 2 years.

I know that ultimately she is a character in a story, but Torrar writes PEOPLE. Natasha is a person with agency. She likely has been giving this a ton of thought. Frederick's Constant martyr complex has been torturing the poor woman for DECADES. This has been repeated MULTIPLE TIMES. Freddy almost dieing is a meme at this point.


Let's please stop treating our wife like an object. She gives so very much for Fredrick. For once let's do what she wants entirely, no haggling, no negotiations and no treating her like her needs are suggestions. We put her needs second to the Empire at every turn.

She is desperately pleading for validation and reassurances like an abuse victim. She is legitimately scared of us.

This relationship is beginning to look toxic and for a hint at the problem here Natasha has given us everything.

This was initiated by Natasha and she explicitly stated she would be fine with what was picked. Our decision here will not affect the relationship, it's developed enough for that.
 
Hmm...What exactly are the downsides of the Bedrock option guys? :???:

Does it present the danger of the bond being manipulated or used by our enemies that specialize in magic or soul stuff? Like if someone tears into Frederick's soul again...Will Natasha also feel the pain that her husband is experiencing?

I guess that the Bedrock option might be the best but it also has a lot of cons? I'm not really sure.
 
Our decision here will not affect the relationship, it's developed enough for that.

It will not affect the relationship for worse. It could, however, affect the relationship for the better. We are still at 9.5/10 approval of husband by wife, last I checked.

I'm not a fan of pushing the choice back to Natasha. It is a hard choice for us, it would be a hard choice for her and she would need to fight with her own uncertainty about how much is 'reasonable' to ask for. In fact, during the chapter she already offered to take only Topsoil, not because she doesnt want the other options, but as a sort of concession to make Frederick go along with it.

I think it would make her a lot more happy, if we actively decided to go for one of the deeper level (subsoil or bedrock) and show her that Frederick isnt 'just' indulging her choice, but that he too wants to do this.

I found this to be insightful. I've been back and forth between selecting bedrock and letting her pick, but this comment has me leaning bedrock again, at least for the next five minutes :p
 
Bedrock does carry the risk of a specifically inclined, attuned, equipped, and informed enemy exploiting the connection to cause harm. It is possible, but as has been pointed out earler, Yhanna is a bamf. She's not gonna create some breezy open door which Malekith can waltz through if he wants to make a run for the fulcrum. I think the risk is small, though admittedly severe.
 
Hmm...What exactly are the downsides of the Bedrock option guys? :???:

Does it present the danger of the bond being manipulated or used by our enemies that specialize in magic or soul stuff? Like if someone tears into Frederick's soul again...Will Natasha also feel the pain that her husband is experiencing?

Honestly? It might be unpleasant to have an awareness of the emotions of someone else in your head at all times, even someone you absolutely love. Maybe Natasha doesn't need to know every time Frederick is annoyed with her, and he doesn't need to know every time he pisses her off. No matter how much they may love each other, they're human. It's good to be able to have a little privacy inside your own head.
 
Bedrock also introduces this weird psychic transfer aspect to their relationship that opens him up to the Widow in ways I am leery of as a non adherent not to mention which if Freddy is constantly getting his organs exploded and regrown Nat is gonna feel that. Also I don't like psychic bonds as a device as they devalue regular old human bonds as "lesser" which rubs me the wrong way.
 
... You know, I wonder if the combination of Bedrock, and the Light of Summer, and Natasha's own Soul... Might result in longevity increases for Frederick and/or Natasha, because of what happens?

... Eh, probably not. Probably not any more than there already is some longevity increases already. But still, it'd be nice. It'd be nice if Bedrock allowed the two to share some benefits -- I mean, beyond just what is already implied by the magic to begin with.

Well, we'll find out.

But I'm currently in favor of going to the Bedrock. A love as deep as "all my love, forever"? And Frederick being Stonesouled?

I think Frederick should just tell Natasha that he's willing and desiring to go all the way. Natasha is asking Frederick how far he wants to go, so, let's have Frederick tell her how far; and that's Bedrock. As befitting their love.
It might be cheesy, or lame, or something that just doesn't hit right for some, but their little call and response? The one I've been sprinkling in repeatedly throughout their interactions?

All my love, forever? -> Forever?

They mean it. They genuinely mean it. It's not just some flimsy catch phrase I wrote up, it's something that encapsulates the depth of the emotions they've held for one another in only four words, three spoken by the first speaker and the fourth word by the second. It is declaration and confirmation. Natasha is born of Kislev, and yes, hardy rough and tumble 'our soil is black from the blood of so many slain sons and daughters beneath the white of the snows' Kislev. But she was also a young woman when she left Kislev. A bit older than Frederick was, sure, but still.
... You know, that makes it pretty clear for me. Go for Bedrock. All my love forever.
Their bond goes deep, all the way down to the bedrock of their hearts and souls. That's the best fit for it, really.
Huh. Now I'm wondering of the possibilities of one who is StoneSouled going to the Bedrock. Even if the wording is just coincidence, his soul has proven able to weather that which would trample others, like Durthu's intake of Coeddil. Might help Natasha.
Same here. What does it mean to go "to the bedrock" while being Stonesouled?


Also -- several people jumped on the fear train of "Dude, we are going to be facing Malagor and/or Morghur! We can't risk it!" but that's absurd. One, because that's total OOC knowledge and relying on that is totally unfair. Two, because... even if we knew it was coming we still don't know how the campaign is going to turn out. We might, personally, never face Malagor at all. We might face Taurox or one of the other Beastlords. Third, it does not matter even if somebody caught Frederick or Natasha; because the consequences to both Frederick and Natasha would be dire anyway if a Sorcerer the likes of Malagor or Morathi got ahold of either of them!

But finally...

People immediately latched on to the fear of "Oh no, this is a vulnerability? We must be worried about the worst possible scenario, then." But. But, what if...

What if you reverse that, too?

What if you consider the possibility that having a strong connection to a Stonesouled, and somebody blessed by the Ancient Widow, might also give AID against an evil conjurer?

Whether it be Frederick being able to offer support to Natasha or vice versa. Or if it would mean that Natasha could go to Yhanna or Aurelion if Frederick were ever captured, and thus Yhanna or Aurelion would be able to pull some kind of working that could aid Frederick even if he were captured!

If there is the possibility for risk or vulnerability, then I say there is the possibility for potential too.

Though honestly, despite the fact that I just spent most of my wordcount talking about the magic part of this... I feel more strongly, and more influenced, about going for this because of what it would mean for Natasha's heart and peace of mind.

I hadn't realized, or perhaps hadn't fully considered, how sincere they were with those messages of "All my love, forever." And so... I want to honor that.

I want to honor that commitment, with a Bedrock connection.

I do not think it right to shy away from it from fear out of some conjurer.

In fact, I think... that if you are hesitant to pick Bedrock solely because of the evil sorcerer issue (if you are against it for other reasons, that's fine! it's just if it's the "the magic connection is too scary!" that I'm currently talking about) then you should be too hesitant to send Frederick into battle where he might die, too.

Because it feels the same to me. Yes, I am aware that this also throws Natasha into the mix too.

I'm saying that the... shape of it is the same. And that shape, is fear. Fear that something horrible might happen to Frederick or Natasha.

But, like. You were already accepting these sorts of possibilities. You were already accepting that Frederick might die if he goes out, or get captured and enslaved, or turned into a Vampire, or transformed into a Chaos Spawn, or sacrificed to a Daemon (that one actually happened!) or whatever.

That's simply the sort of world it is, and that's simply the sort of life that they lead.

I think, instead, that we should focus on Frederick and Natasha's relationship and love.

I think we should just focus on forging the closest possible connection between the two of them, and focusing on cherishing the love they have and the time together they have.

And so... Bedrock.
 
I'm a sap so Bedrock sounds just nice. I wonder how the reverse will go? Mothers cruel embrace on fred will be odd.
Besides a shared trait just sounds great for a story. If it turns out bad, oh well. The story is all the more interesting for it.
 
Comedy answer if we do Bedrock we won't be able to sneak away during diplomatic summits to get innocent cinnabun elf squires absolutely shit faced drunk anymore and is that the kind of world we want to live in?!?!
 
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*Read Update* - Soulbond, how can this negatively affect Freddy?

*Read Comments* - Snort. really amusing that the negative connotations of this event are the main focus.

Letting Natasha decide is not something I'm okay with. Not because I do not trust her. I'm not okay with letting her decide because I trust her. Natasha wants Freddy to take the soulbond, so we'll take the soulbond. However, the level of the soulbond should be Freddy's choice. I can trust that Natasha is understanding of the negative consequences and Freddy's love of her that Freddy's choice on the soulbond level is acceptable for her.

As for level of soulbond.

Topsoil = weak, most safe

Subsoil = Medium, rsik? yes?

Bedrock = Strong, risk? yes

We are open to the link being exploited on any option that is not topsoil from what I can tell. Let's go all in. Freddy hasn't gone all in on a choice in a long time. We put ourselves at risk, but we always have Freddy take risky actions in battle eventually, regardless of consequences.

The only concerning part I have with Bedrock is the possible soul changes from the Widow that might be possible. And I don't care Freddy could be changed, seeing Freddy choose to do a very nice thing for his wife at risk to himself is okay to me.


------

Because I'm pissed off that the immediate counter to even mentioning Malagor can exploit the bond is "NOPE, because it's OOC it cannot be a valid argument".

The Soulbond is a risk. It can be exploited. Freddy has encountered Ariel, Orion, Gazul, Sigmar, Khorne (very long distance glimpse). People he shouldn't be able to meet that can muddle his soul up. Malagor is old and alive at this time in the timeline, which CAN be theorized from CANON! Malagor is just one more person Freddy can encounter, but the difference is this one would maliciously seek to mess around with the bond.

There is also the Changeling who could exploit the bond. The Changeling who is not dead, just in an unknown location.

There is a RISK of things going wrong! Downplaying the risk as not a concern is a disservice to the point.
 
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