Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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I did like the post and the way the implications were handled, @torroar

yannoshka said:
It is unproductive, it is infantile, and all it does at this point is put unnecessary and completely undeserved stress on Tor.
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I resent being called infantile for trying to point out political consequences and social dynamics, especially of types that are rare in the modern day and virtually universal in polytheistic societies.

I'd like to ask for an apology for that, in particular.

TheDuke said:
Yeah no, expecting them not to be annoyed is just silly, nobody wants the witch hunters on their ass over anything. Only reason I'd really take issue with the cult's response is them actually trying to punish or take action against us for resolving their mess in a way they didn't like.
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"Resolving their mess in a way they didn't like" would be, say, refusing to allow any of the priests to go anywhere without watchers from the count's army keeping an eye on them.

What we did was something like "torture to death half their membership to be sure we got all the heretics and not-totally-rejecting-the-heretics-fast-enough-to-satisfy-Sigmarite-fanatics." Which is a WHOLE 'nother level of thing to object to. That's beyond "we don't like what you did" and on into "you are dripping in our peers' blood and acting us to expect that everything is fine and nothings wrong" territory.

Tasoli said:
Mission accomplished as far as I am concerned. We spend a lot of money to get Cult of Mannan to love us but after this I am perfectly okay putting some fear of us in to them.

There are and should be limits to what a cult get away with.
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The problem is that we didn't just establish secular supremacy over the cult. We used Sigmarites to implement superiority over the Cult of Manaan, in the bloodiest and most brutal manner imaginable.

This complicates the political picture considerably. On the one hand, the priests of the 'smaller gods' of the Empire (everyone who isn't Sigmar) constantly have to fear that their cults will be crushed under official disfavor and enforced Sigmar-worship, something that radical elements of the Sigmarite clergy would happily endorse. On the other hand, the 'smaller gods' are vital, load-bearing parts of the Empire's society.

What we did looks from the outside a LOT like a pogrom directed at killing off or driving away a religious minority, using terrorist acts by an extremist faction of the minority as a justification, and asserting the power of religious adherents of Sigmar to carry out this pogrom, making them the de facto state church with the power to decide what beliefs of the other gods' followers are or are not heretical.

I know that's a very uncharitable interpretation... but it's an important one to be aware of if we're trying to figure out how other people will react.
 
If it's anything to you torroar I thought the Starbrook package thing was actually quite clever, showing us our enemies have more ways of attacking us than with an army, that despite being one of the best fighters in the Old World we still have weaknesses, and that those we anger won't be idle and will find ways to hurt us.
 
torroar said:
Possibly others, if I can think of any that are somewhat reasonable. Like, probably not going to waste a vapor tank on being a wing-suit catapult equipped platform that just sits in the back, for instance.
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I could actually see us making a couple of those, it would be a way to have recon with the army that gets around the need to set up a tower. It would heavily depend on how may we can make and field, but even having what amounts to tractors which can tow guns can be very useful.

The melee variant is amusingly enough closer to what the first tanks were for: reaching and breaching enemy lines. Though progress and research on the tanks is likely going to run into the limits of tech development you are willing to let us have. An assembly line wouldn't be too high tech, but it would be something that is probably a bit too far. Kind of like railroads, ability is there but might be too much for what you have planned. Or at least if we worked in the steam tank research line. Steam tanks would have advanced enough engines for a train, I am however unsure how obscenely expensive an alcohol powered internal combustion engine train would be to operate.
 
Simon_Jester said:
The problem is that we didn't just establish secular supremacy over the cult. We used Sigmarites to implement superiority over the Cult of Manaan, in the bloodiest and most brutal manner imaginable.
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We didn't get an option to use the non-Sigmarite half of our intrigue apparatus to do the job, presumably because we always use the Witch Hunters for this kind of job and nobody complains (possibly also because the rest of our intrigue apparatus doesn't have the same kind of authority built-in), so we did it with the option we got.

Its the same thing that would probably have wound up happening to the halflings if their own secret war they didn't tell us about had not only gone wrong but explosively spilled out onto things we care about. Moral of the story, having secret wars in our province and not telling us is only ok if you win.
 
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wakshazi said:
Kind of like railroads, ability is there but might be too much for what you have planned. Or at least if we worked in the steam tank research line. Steam tanks would have advanced enough engines for a train, I am however unsure how obscenely expensive an alcohol powered internal combustion engine train would be to operate.
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The GM already addressed us not having trains, but for different reasons.
torroar said:
However, don't expect to see trains. Rails are just not reasonable in this environment. The beastmen, goblins, beasts, etc. would be capable of tearing apart railway lines, and you don't have enough men in all of Ostland combined if every single one was a soldier to patrol the miles and miles and miles it would be. Sorry. Other things, we'll see.
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Which is eminently reasonable, making the engine would be easy. Making and defending the rail lines; that would be really hard. The sheer logistical challenge a rail road presents when trying to set it up initially is quite impressive.

I was thinking more about the setting, and getting mass production and steam power up and running greatly changes the setting. Railways across the empire would be a game changer- assuming you could keep them running despite the mentioned beasties and skaven.
 
torroar said:
I have requested that we not talk about it anymore, please.
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To be clear, do you mean Elector's Meet intrigue? I'm a bit hazy on what 'it' is in context.

I apologize if I'm getting things wrong, I'm trying very hard to be constructive and not make things worse, but I do want to analyze what's happening in Ostmark right now and what the potential ramifications are.

065tdsa said:
We didn't get an option to use the non-Sigmarite half of our intrigue apparatus to do the job, presumably because we always use the Witch Hunters for this kind of job and nobody complains (possibly also because the rest of our intrigue apparatus doesn't have the same kind of authority built-in), so we did it with the option we got.
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Yes, we totally always use the Witch Hunters for this kind of job...

But we usually use the Witch Hunters to go after Chaos cultists (who are so insanely dangerous that people don't complain very much if the Witch Hunters kill several innocent people per actual cultist they catch) and necromancers (likewise). Also, to be quite candid, the Witch Hunters are usually hunting for witches among the general populace, who don't have enough clout individually to raise much of a stink if the Witch Hunters kill half the population of an isolated village on the grounds that one or two families were Chaos-worshippers and the rest didn't stop them.

The Church of Manaan is different.

Firstly, because the heretic Manaanites aren't that kind of insanely dangerous individually; they don't spontaneously turn into daemons or anything, they just walk onto ships and start fires. This means that even after they do something dramatic and 'ugly,' people fear and hate them less, which makes it harder to justify killing innocents to get at them.

Second, the Church of Manaan does something the nation as a whole honors and approves of, so killing half of all of it in the entire province raises eyebrows over a wider area.

Third, the Church of Manaan has clout, so they can punch back harder than a bunch of unjustly killed peasants. We'd be running into the same problems if we'd enacted a similarly indiscriminate purge of, say, the entire nobility. Or all the merchants' guilds simultaneously.

...

Finally, even though we didn't exactly have an option to use anything other than the Witch Hunters if we wanted to stamp out the heresy ourselves... The fact that we did use the Witch Hunters still sends a political message. Because, again, dozens of people associated with the Cult of Manaan were personally tortured to death at the hands of adherents of the Cult of Sigmar, at our orders, while the rest of the Cult of Manaan was forced to watch.

That sends a very strong signal about where in the hierarchy the Manaanites stand relative to us in our opinion, and I'm seeing a lot of people who were glad to send that message. But it also sends the message that we are asserting the primacy and jurisdiction of the Sigmarites to act as inquisitor, interrogator, judge, jury, and executioner over other gods' priesthoods.
 
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torroar said:
Well, the hellblaster doesn't exist yet, nothing on that number of barrels with rotation capabilities. But there is the regular cannon, though it won't be steam powered, and no steam turret. There will be, instead, effectively a short range bellows-pump device that shoots lit alcohol streams with improvemnts possible.

As for variations, yeah, could stick a volley cannon on it. A no on a Titan Cannon, though, that would require two of them to even heft it upright, or investing in money to make an even bigger alcohol tank, but that's a bit tech creep-y so possibly not going to be a thing.

Actually, you've already cottoned onto the vapor tank version of the ramming steam tank. In that it will have three death spinner columns on the front and sides, and it'll basically just run around as a militarized combine harvester looking thing.

There will be options on which variant to build when the action is complete and they are buildable. Standard (cannon+liquid fire turret)/ Volley (no turret, only volley cannon) / and Cutting Ram (death-spinner 'melee' vehicle).

Possibly others, if I can think of any that are somewhat reasonable. Like, probably not going to waste a vapor tank on being a wing-suit catapult equipped platform that just sits in the back, for instance.
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When I was talking about a Volleygun equivalent (I know I mentioned helblaster for the steam tank, but I forgot it was called helblaster volley gun), I was thinking of the Imperial Organs, Big or something between big and the dash (so Three main cannons even if they aren't the size of a great cannon).
Maybe rather than a flame turret for some a version with (perhaps double barreled) Swivel Gun, so flame turret being able to hit more people up close while the swivel gun can fire at targets further away. Or a model equivalent to the Von Zeppel with multiple swivel (say somewhere around 2-4) guns sacrificing a main cannon for 360-degree light cannon fire, although a bunch of handguns technically would do a similar role we lack repeater and well this provides a heavier version. Hm as another alternative turret have a heavy blast gun?


For the titan cannon I was more imagining an engine designed to pull it so we don't need to rely on horses. Since this would be more of a Self-Propelled artillery piece, I would expect it to have less armour than the other version but wouldn't am engine be able to pull more than 4 horses?
If we ever make mortars that would also be worth considering.

Sometimes I have difficulty thinking about the actual size of the titan cannons, are they about an ogre and a quarter in size or are they closer to the size of a Hellhammer (and the queen bess)?
 
Wargamer08 said:
Really dude, just let it go.
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OK look, I'm trying to edit and to clarify, because @torroar is simultaneously talking about a past subject he already requested be dropped, and apparently requesting that a new subject be dropped...

And also, honestly, I just find the sociology very interesting on an abstract level, how we've got to balance all these separate power blocs off one another, and I think that it would be nice if (and this may not be possible) we could have a conversation that gets into the details and the nuances. The Early Modern era was a very complex time with a lot of different overlapping power structures all interlocking and pulling things in different directions, and Warhammer Fantasy makes it even more complex and interesting by introducing polytheism and so on.
 
Bear Templar said:
When I was talking about a Volleygun equivalent (I know I mentioned helblaster for the steam tank, but I forgot it was called helblaster volley gun), I was thinking of the Imperial Organs, Big or something between big and the dash (so Three main cannons even if they aren't the size of a great cannon).
Maybe rather than a flame turret for some a version with (perhaps double barreled) Swivel Gun, so flame turret being able to hit more people up close while the swivel gun can fire at targets further away. Or a model equivalent to the Von Zeppel with multiple swivel (say somewhere around 2-4) guns sacrificing a main cannon for 360-degree light cannon fire, although a bunch of handguns technically would do a similar role we lack repeater and well this provides a heavier version. Hm as another alternative turret have a heavy blast gun?


For the titan cannon I was more imagining an engine designed to pull it so we don't need to rely on horses. Since this would be more of a Self-Propelled artillery piece, I would expect it to have less armour than the other version but wouldn't am engine be able to pull more than 4 horses?
If we ever make mortars that would also be worth considering.

Sometimes I have difficulty thinking about the actual size of the titan cannons, are they about an ogre and a quarter in size or are they closer to the size of a Hellhammer (and the queen bess)?
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Swivel Bundle could be a variation, multiple swivel guns on it for light fire. Possibly. Though as you said, same damage could easily be done if enough handgunners are shooting at something.

As for the Titan Cannon.


That is how big the Titan Cannon is, as its basically a refined and less cobbled/far better maintained Ironblaster.

So you can use the helmets on that image in the link of people to sort of extrapolate its relative size by using the following below picture.

warhammerfantasy.fandom.com

Empire Great Cannon

These immense guns form the backbone of an artillery battery, hurling solid balls of iron into the enemy, ripping through ranks and devastating formations. Armour is no protection against a cannon ball and the effect a well-aimed salvo can have on tightly packed regiments cannot be...
warhammerfantasy.fandom.com warhammerfantasy.fandom.com

And see the crew size / cannon size ratio.

As of yet, there is not an Imperial Hellhammer equivalent in existence. For now, at least. Obviously, by pursuing the Titan Cannon, you've indulged the engineers enough that they might have some thoughts about further upscaling. But they'll probably be quite expensive, for obvious reasons, if they ever do get built. They're friggen enormous. But remember that the Hellhammer and thus the Queen Bess only came into being when Sigismund the Mad, a specialist of Karl Franz, visited the Sunken Vaults of the W.E.M. in the Karaz Ankor.

No other explanation is given, but I personally call the presumed inspirations for the Hellhammer the 'Roars of Morgrim', big big big cannons pointed horizontally down the Underway. Only a few ever made, highly experimental and distrusted due to, well, being so experimental, but also way too big to simply never use if it comes to it.
 
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Considering that the trials to the Iceborn Flame Temple is ready and temple itself is still building itself up from crazy defensives we invested could possible invest into the three villages/towns that connect to it?

After all, its gonna be a major pilgrimage spot if not already so would be worth expanding those connecting settlements and maybe getting a good deal of trade income in the process.
 
Well, at least things didnt went too far.

Still need to check the beastpath soon, feels like Beastmen are gearing up for their invasion soon. The upgrades to the cannons and weapons also helps a lot for Festermarsh interlude soon. Similarly, our food productions gonna be getting some major boost.

What surpise me more is that Athel Loren responded in helping Octaine but considering what we did earlier, it prob make sense.

Also, writing that we kind went overboard with the manaan investigation and then making amends would be good. We just lost 750 trade production due to that and nevermind that our charity run to Albion is completely dependant that we get those supplies there safely, not scaring or pissing the manaan cult is integral to that. At the very least, let us acknowledge that fact.

Big Magnus is prob taking multiple drinks due to the stunt we just pulled and the fallout that he( and by extension, us as well.) will have to deal with.
 
wakshazi said:
I could actually see us making a couple of those, it would be a way to have recon with the army that gets around the need to set up a tower. It would heavily depend on how may we can make and field, but even having what amounts to tractors which can tow guns can be very useful.
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It would probably be cheaper to build an oversized ballista meant for ogres to carry and launch your scouts off them.
 
Is the Feistermarsh interlude just going to describe what happened there, @torroar? Going by it's description, namely that it had a CoS for Ostermark and a definite time limit of 1 year, I assume that's what it will be. I could be wrong though, obviously.
 
NCRTrooper said:
Is the Feistermarsh interlude just going to describe what happened there, @torroar? Going by it's description, namely that it had a CoS for Ostermark and a definite time limit of 1 year, I assume that's what it will be. I could be wrong though, obviously.
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Yeah. I just...don't have another LL equivalent in me right now. Much less a KU. Just been sort of down recently, muse coming and going on different things.
 
torroar said:
Yeah. I just...don't have another LL equivalent in me right now. Much less a KU. Just been sort of down recently, muse coming and going on different things.
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That is fine man, all things considered the battle is more of a minor threatre all things considered.

Could make it even just an after thought with Freddy, Ortrud, and Stephan going over results in meeting if you like. Whatever is easier on you.
 
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