Erengrad is one of the premier ports of the Old World, and is a slaveport. Buying slaves in bulk, is not really a problem.
You really overestimate how costly slaves and their "management" is.

Edit: the scale is completely different than you are imagining. The warhammer cities are far larger than their same tech counterparts from our Earth.
Marienburg is a disgusting freak of nature with 250k men with Altdorf having about 100k. A lot of the others are, well, dinky even when considered fairly prosperous. Averheim and Hergig just go a bit over 9k, Bechafen, is around 7.6k, and historically our own Wolfenburg was around 5.5k. And the south is supposedly sunshine and lolipops versus the bullshit up north.


A late era British slave ship (probably with a better carrying capacity than the Araby ships) carried 454 slaves. So that makes it... 66 trips back and forth, probably with wasted cargo space on the way back.

The distance between Tangiers and Saint Petersburg is 3153 nautical miles. A carrack ship goes about 100 miles in a day on average. So the two way time back and forth would be just over two months assuming you stop for absolutely nothing.

That adds up, even going by generous measurements.
 
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I see you might be using Heirs of Sigmar measurements for city populations.

We don't use those here. They are...significantly too small. I've had discussions with others on this, over PM and over time, and...yeah.
 
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GW has always taken a "It Just Works" approach to population numbers. I remember hearing that the Drucchi canonically always have Exactly as Much Population as they need to stay relevant, despite, you know, constantly losing thousands of soldiers to failed conquests of ulthuan.
 
GW has always taken a "It Just Works" approach to population numbers. I remember hearing that the Drucchi canonically always have Exactly as Much Population as they need to stay relevant, despite, you know, constantly losing thousands of soldiers to failed conquests of ulthuan.
It's almost as though the people founded by sex cultists with centuries long lifespans would have a high birth rate.
 
Do they use humans? Can half Elves ever even be admitted in any society in warhammer?
Well according to Elfslayer they do "use" human women but not for reproduction.
I think the common elves do have families and children but still it is quite ridiculous that a civilisation could survive the attrition and defeats they have.
 
GW has always taken a "It Just Works" approach to population numbers. I remember hearing that the Drucchi canonically always have Exactly as Much Population as they need to stay relevant, despite, you know, constantly losing thousands of soldiers to failed conquests of ulthuan.

It's also supposedly the same in the opposite direction. Losing a dozen High Elves is a super horrific tragedy, because, after all, they're always just barely on the brink of total collapse. Centuries to thousands of years of knowledge, experience, expertise, heroism, snuffed out by such a brutal world....

You know, like that time they lost hundreds to that Chaos Invasion, but don't collapse yet, because they're just barely on the brink of total collapse.

But it's okay, they can lose thousands in this huge campaign but not fall apart, because they're still JUST. ON. THE. BRINK.

GW either inflated or deflated the actual number of High Elves to always, no matter what, make them be just barely on the brink. Whether that meant losing one, or a great many. Or even winning! 'Ah, we won, but there are so many more battles to fight, how can we go on with so few left, fewer every year, etc. etc.'

It's almost as though the people founded by sex cultists with centuries long lifespans would have a high birth rate.

Well, part of it isn't so much that, as the fact that it's repeatedly said centuries long people who are fighting and dying. You'd think, attrition wise, that if they really did have such a high birth rate, they'd be running into, well, a few decades down the line of basically DE babies throwing themselves into battle.

Rather, in all the materials, from Malus' to Teclis+Tyrion to Gotrek+Felix, they're always described as centuries old experts and deadly experienced corsairs with centuries of murdering under their belts and sorceresses with centuries of learning their craft and making pacts, etc. Regardless of the casualties they take in other things, they have a, as Doc said, just a constant 'as many as they need' of these experts despite killing each other quite often, assassinating each other, as well as regular fights.

I don't think I ever saw a single reference or thing where a DE went 'But I'm only a half a century old! Like my thousands of brothers and sisters! I'm not nearly as fast/strong/experienced as you, eight century year old dread lord!" or anything even close to describing a...young DE, really. Despite the constant ravaging competition between said dread lords, and sorceresses, and corsair captains, etc.

Plus, I would expect that if the DE could truly pull off a super high birthrate, having Alarielle visiting your settlement and wandering about Ulthuan as she does should vastly increase fertility and birth rates and such because, well, Isha (Goddess of Fertility) and such, so the HE should have a directly God-borne fertility rate. But...they don't.

It's quite the conundrum, canon-wise. It's the same for the Empire, and the dwarfs. The dwarfs can hold the citadel of K8P with 500 dudes and Belegar, because that's all that could possibly be spared despite it's importance and being occupied by both greenskins and skaven. Meanwhile, 10,000 dwarfs die in a mountain collapse or avalanche or whatever near Karak Azul and that's nothing more than a little blurb on the side for Grudge-lore. Empire constantly, constantly loses villages and towns and such. Like, almost every novel I've read involves one of those going up in flames, or burning down in flames, or being plagued to death, etc. etc. and yet the Empire can still marshal armies for every province and fight back against humongous WAAAAGH!!s and Chaos hordes and so on and so forth.

It's something that one has to sift through, decide for themselves for their own pocket version, then iron out and hammer down what is and isn't canon for numbers. Or, for instance, their quest version.
 
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Well, Humans aren't that surprising, since they are the fastest reproducing race outside of Orks and Skaven.
For the Dawi, even without the constant wars, I don't understand how they can even work as a civilization with the 1 women to 5 men ratio.
 
something something send out dwarfs to do awesome shit wait for said dwarfs to come home let the local dwarf lady`s / and there father(lord`s) pick who is worthy of getting a wife. then there the long long time it take a dwarf to have a child and the stupid amount of time it takes to raise a dwarf child with all the rules and what not it has to follow.

GW just hand waves a lot of that number games thing and just goes with what they think sounds cool even if it make`s no sense.
bretonia couldn`t work the way they say it does but for some reason it does.
the empire should not still be a thing with the way they describe some of the ways it seem work but it does.
the dwarfs should have long died of by now but they do not.

nobody understand how any of the flavor of the elves work and somehow keep coming back for more.
weird thing is skaven and lizard man seem to at least mostly work they way we are told they do.
and beastman thing makes no sense "but it chaos" so F things making sense anyway

lets not even start about what is and isn`t possible in the northern waistlands. but again "chaos/magic" so who needs things to make sense.
 
This is all true, which is why I at least vastly prefer some of the more well thought of homebrew warhammer fantasy quests/stories to all of the canon books/sources.

I like my lore setting to be internally consistent and believable.
 
Really, with Warhammer in general, the setting only works if you don't sit down and think about it for a while. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy it, but seriously partaking in the franchise beyond it's origonal form as a board game requires a flexible suspension of disbelief.
 
and sometime being willing to just trow suspension fight the F out the window because "rule of cool" and "because of magic"
 
Speaking Shrodingers demographics, one thing that I find sources always differs on is how dwarves age. Specifically what the average age is for Longbeards. On the wiki alone the entry for Longbeards state that they gain the status at 500 years. Meanwhile the Dwarf page states that one becomes a Living Ancestor at 400. @torroar, at what age does a dwarf normaly gain Longbeard status in this quest?
 
The inconsistency and stuff always a problem with GW.

Doesn't mean we can't enjoy GM's quest, I think much better at least.
 
Well, Humans aren't that surprising, since they are the fastest reproducing race outside of Orks and Skaven.
For the Dawi, even without the constant wars, I don't understand how they can even work as a civilization with the 1 women to 5 men ratio.

something something send out dwarfs to do awesome shit wait for said dwarfs to come home let the local dwarf lady`s / and there father(lord`s) pick who is worthy of getting a wife. then there the long long time it take a dwarf to have a child and the stupid amount of time it takes to raise a dwarf child with all the rules and what not it has to follow.

GW just hand waves a lot of that number games thing and just goes with what they think sounds cool even if it make`s no sense.
bretonia couldn`t work the way they say it does but for some reason it does.
the empire should not still be a thing with the way they describe some of the ways it seem work but it does.
the dwarfs should have long died of by now but they do not.

nobody understand how any of the flavor of the elves work and somehow keep coming back for more.
weird thing is skaven and lizard man seem to at least mostly work they way we are told they do.
and beastman thing makes no sense "but it chaos" so F things making sense anyway

lets not even start about what is and isn`t possible in the northern waistlands. but again "chaos/magic" so who needs things to make sense.

Ask Tolkien. At the end of the day all Warhammer Fantasy (Yes even Age of Sigmar) is ,before anything else, a bunch of Tolkien fanboys making their own "realistic" D&D homebrew of his work. Seriously this is why the writing is so inconsistent: A bunch of Tolkien fans took a look at the Lord of the Rings and other works of Tolkien and decided that The Children of Húrin is the coolest story ever written and that it is the story worth basing their D&D on. Considering what they made the halflings (the people Tolkien saw himself in the most) into it's a safe bet that they missed a lot of points Tolkien himself was trying to make.
 
I see you might be using Heirs of Sigmar measurements for city populations.

We don't use those here. They are...significantly too small. I've had discussions with others on this, over PM and over time, and...yeah.
Well, part of it isn't so much that, as the fact that it's repeatedly said centuries long people who are fighting and dying. You'd think, attrition wise, that if they really did have such a high birth rate, they'd be running into, well, a few decades down the line of basically DE babies throwing themselves into battle.

Rather, in all the materials, from Malus' to Teclis+Tyrion to Gotrek+Felix, they're always described as centuries old experts and deadly experienced corsairs with centuries of murdering under their belts and sorceresses with centuries of learning their craft and making pacts, etc. Regardless of the casualties they take in other things, they have a, as Doc said, just a constant 'as many as they need' of these experts despite killing each other quite often, assassinating each other, as well as regular fights.

I don't think I ever saw a single reference or thing where a DE went 'But I'm only a half a century old! Like my thousands of brothers and sisters! I'm not nearly as fast/strong/experienced as you, eight century year old dread lord!" or anything even close to describing a...young DE, really. Despite the constant ravaging competition between said dread lords, and sorceresses, and corsair captains, etc.

Plus, I would expect that if the DE could truly pull off a super high birthrate, having Alarielle visiting your settlement and wandering about Ulthuan as she does should vastly increase fertility and birth rates and such because, well, Isha (Goddess of Fertility) and such, so the HE should have a directly God-borne fertility rate. But...they don't.

It's quite the conundrum, canon-wise. It's the same for the Empire, and the dwarfs. The dwarfs can hold the citadel of K8P with 500 dudes and Belegar, because that's all that could possibly be spared despite it's importance and being occupied by both greenskins and skaven. Meanwhile, 10,000 dwarfs die in a mountain collapse or avalanche or whatever near Karak Azul and that's nothing more than a little blurb on the side for Grudge-lore. Empire constantly, constantly loses villages and towns and such. Like, almost every novel I've read involves one of those going up in flames, or burning down in flames, or being plagued to death, etc. etc. and yet the Empire can still marshal armies for every province and fight back against humongous WAAAAGH!!s and Chaos hordes and so on and so forth.

It's something that one has to sift through, decide for themselves for their own pocket version, then iron out and hammer down what is and isn't canon for numbers. Or, for instance, their quest version.
Eh, Talabheim, Nuln and Altdorf are around that Start-of-Renaissance Italian City State level and Sigmar's Heirs gives the population in 2522, right after the Empire fends off the existential threat that Archaon was supposed to be.

The major cities* themselves are fine. Somewhat low but fine but not terrible. The issue is that provinces like Talabecland and Wissenland apparently have 98%-99% of the population live in the singular capital city(and that a province like Ostermark apparently only has 20 settlements period) .
Not enough towns/villages/hamlets. Not enough people living in the towns/villages/hamlets. How the hell do these people grow food?

*Except Middenheim. Which is more of temple/fortress than a center of trade/industry anyway.
 
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Mmm, but it also features portions like the Ostland section where it says things like 'population of 98 missing' and such for its locations. Which implies, to me, that those are the general numbers that are used Empire-wide. Things like Nordland's '1,200 residents fate unknown' for a place like Frote.

As in, if the numbers are different from their 'former' state', it would be noted in the margins for the significant places sections.

So...yeah. I just sorta increased the numbers for a lot of things. Hence the sheer number of goblins in Karak Ungor, the size of the Grand Army of Kislev, city populations, etc.
 
Ask Tolkien. At the end of the day all Warhammer Fantasy (Yes even Age of Sigmar) is ,before anything else, a bunch of Tolkien fanboys making their own "realistic" D&D homebrew of his work. Seriously this is why the writing is so inconsistent: A bunch of Tolkien fans took a look at the Lord of the Rings and other works of Tolkien and decided that The Children of Húrin is the coolest story ever written and that it is the story worth basing their D&D on. Considering what they made the halflings (the people Tolkien saw himself in the most) into it's a safe bet that they missed a lot of points Tolkien himself was trying to make.
not sure what point your trying to make or why you added my in that post but even if that all true.
what was the point your trying to make here?
 
Do they use humans? Can half Elves ever even be admitted in any society in warhammer?

Pretty sure half-elves are not a thing at all. They did exist in the earliest editions and then stopped getting any mention after that.

Mind you, the early editions also gave us a gnomish race, Half-Orcs, and Orc women. All things that also disappeared.

And yeah, the Sigmar's Heirs book has extremely low pop figures for what is essentially 16th century Europe.

As for the elven pop problem, I tend to use @Imrix interpretation from his quest:

Dark Elves: 2.5 million, heavily militarized, use oodles and oodles of slave troops as fodder, arrow bait and living shields to soften the enemy for their experienced legions to close the distance to and eviscerate when they are tired.

High Elves: 7 million and change, losing 1-5 thousand total pop a year (after childbirth is accounted for) on a score of battlefields and seas as they act as the World's Shield or patrol the Oceans. That number spikes whenever there is a large war (like the recent Great War of Chaos) or Malekith begins yet another invasion.

Wood Elves: 300 thousand and holding steady, with Laurelorn having maybe an additional 20k.

Beastmen, meanwhile have a bunch of vectors to gain pop. Every year Morrisleb mutates tons of animals into chaos spawn and Beastmen, humans can be born as mutants or Beastmen and abandoned by their family, the Beastmen have their own females that birth Beastmen, etc.

So I can see them remaining a constant threat.
 
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Pretty sure half-elves are not a thing at all. They did exist in the earliest editions and then stopped getting any mention after that.

Mind you, the early editions also gave us a gnomish race, Half-Orcs, and Orc women. All things that also disappeared.

And yeah, the Sigmar's Heirs book can extremely low pop figures for what is essentially 16th century Europe.

As for the elven pop problem, I tend to use @Imrix interpretation from his quest:

Dark Elves: 2.5 million, heavily militarized, use oodles and oodles of slave troops as fodder, arrow bait and living shields to soften the enemy for their experienced legions to close the distance to and eviscerate when they are tired.

High Elves: 7 million and change, losing 1-5 thousand total pop a year (after childbirth is accounted for) on a score of battlefields and seas as they act as the World's shield or patrol the Oceans. That number spikes whenever there is a large war (like the recent Great War of Chaos) or Malekith begins yet another invasion.

Wood Elves: 300 thousand and holding steady, with Laurelorn having maybe an additional 20k.

Beastmen, meanwhile have a bunch of vectors to gain pop. Every year Morrisleb mutates tons of animals into chaos spawn and Beastmen, humans can be born as mutants or Beastmen and abandoned by their family, the Beastmen have their own females that birth Beastmen, etc.

So I can see them remaining a constant threat.

Yeah, I really liked the way Imrix solved the elf paradox, other than the Wood Elf thing, which I feel need a larger population, especially since Athel Loren is such a potent empyrean realm.
 
It's quite the conundrum, canon-wise. It's the same for the Empire, and the dwarfs. The dwarfs can hold the citadel of K8P with 500 dudes and Belegar, because that's all that could possibly be spared despite it's importance and being occupied by both greenskins and skaven. Meanwhile, 10,000 dwarfs die in a mountain collapse or avalanche or whatever near Karak Azul and that's nothing more than a little blurb on the side for Grudge-lore.
My headcanon for this is that Belegar is just a massive badass and him and his ghosts just carry the expedition super hard. :D
 
Mmm, but it also features portions like the Ostland section where it says things like 'population of 98 missing' and such for its locations. Which implies, to me, that those are the general numbers that are used Empire-wide. Things like Nordland's '1,200 residents fate unknown' for a place like Frote.

As in, if the numbers are different from their 'former' state', it would be noted in the margins for the significant places sections.

So...yeah. I just sorta increased the numbers for a lot of things. Hence the sheer number of goblins in Karak Ungor, the size of the Grand Army of Kislev, city populations, etc.
Which makes sense given the time period is early industrial revolution there would be lots of human population growth, and the way the vast armies of enemy factions are described there has to be a least a lot within order factions or they would have been ground down much sooner.

Like said early GW always has to present that things are always on the edge even when it isn't realistic.

How you do things is better in my opinion since it makes sense.
 
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