Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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I'd personally stick with the old gold method, as I'm a filthy minmaxer. The new method, while likely more accurate (at least it feels more accurate), would kind of skew how a lot of things work.

Like, in the old method, our army upkeep was seriously low, in the sense that we literally made way more money than we spent even if we splurged, which was heavily in our favor.

On the other hand, the new method would feel a lot more balanced (ie. Swelling our armies to max with every possible upgrade might not be practical ALL the time), but we'd have to look at readjusting all the costs and earnings. Like, the treasures given to us by the dwarves was mind boggling in the old method, but with the new, it's good for one or two years upkeep.
 
One or two years upkeep with admittedly two more armies than most other provinces possess.

If Ostland just had the single army of state troops, the new upkeep would be reduced a good chunk.

Hmmmmmmm....

This requires more thinking on my part, and I appreciate everyone's thoughts as well :)

Update's at 2.5k words.
 
torroar said:
One or two years upkeep with admittedly two more armies than most other provinces possess.

If Ostland just had the single army of state troops, the new upkeep would be reduced a good chunk.

Hmmmmmmm....

This requires more thinking on my part, and I appreciate everyone's thoughts as well :)

Update's at 2.5k words.
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Honestly I don't really see the need for any big changes to the system regarding armies. To me it isn't broke and therefore why fix it? but again just my personal opinion.
 
torroar said:
Describe the ways you are thinking of to me. They may already be in use.
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Like kind of trying to figure out what to ask for. You mind if I ask you some questions?

Do we barracks our troops as whole units (ie the Army of the Range has a location where they all live) or do we spilt them up? Or do we even have barracks for everyone? Do some go home or otherwise disperse until we call them to arms? Obviously it costs more if we're forcing a barracks system as opposed to letting them disperse. At the cost of losing the ability to rapidly call up units. If the units are dispersed how do they get their food? Any place people can grow food they will but is that just supplementing their diet or do they need it to live?

Do we have quartermasters? As a position that has power to request or buy supplies. Not adhoc. Professionals.

Let's talk about Fred. Fred is one of many people in the country to be named after the popular count. Fred is one of those soon to be of age farmer's sons whose got the army bug. How does Fred get his gear? Is it standardized? How much is it standardized if so? Can Fred grab any plate from the armory his size? Is their an armory? Fred breaks his armor. Does he fix it? Does the armorer? Is there an armorer? Is it sent somewhere? If the military isn't fixing it who does it get sent to? If he breaks his bow does he fix it? Does he make his own arrows? Or does a Fletcher? He gets a handgun. It breaks. Does it get sent back to the engineering school or is there an armory to send it back to to get maintenance if it can be fixed?

A cannon breaks. Is it back to the school or can someone in the army fix it? Same with all the other speciality gear that isn't drunk tech.

I get how this stuff works in the field but how does the army function when it's not in the field?
 
Aleadrex said:
I'd personally stick with the old gold method, as I'm a filthy minmaxer. The new method, while likely more accurate (at least it feels more accurate), would kind of skew how a lot of things work.

Like, in the old method, our army upkeep was seriously low, in the sense that we literally made way more money than we spent even if we splurged, which was heavily in our favor.

On the other hand, the new method would feel a lot more balanced (ie. Swelling our armies to max with every possible upgrade might not be practical ALL the time), but we'd have to look at readjusting all the costs and earnings. Like, the treasures given to us by the dwarves was mind boggling in the old method, but with the new, it's good for one or two years upkeep.
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From what you just said the new system would be better since it requires us to more seriously think about our actions in regards to our economy rather than generally throw gold at problems.

Since we are playing as Freddy, a count of an entire province, it makes sense that we need to balance what we want to do and what we can afford doing. Past counts have had to do the same thing after all, assuming they weren't horribly corrupt or something.
 
Massgamer said:
From what you just said the new system would be better since it requires us to more seriously think about our actions in regards to our economy rather than generally throw gold at problems.

Since we are playing as Freddy, a count of an entire province, it makes sense that we need to balance what we want to do and what we can afford doing. Past counts have had to do the same thing after all, assuming they weren't horribly corrupt or something.
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While I understand the need for balance, I do believe that Freddy should have a shit ton of money to throw at his problems.
One of the things he is known for, as Graf of Guns and Count of Cannons, is selling a shit ton of guns to literally everyone. This should result in Ostland having a shit ton of money, far more than it did under his predecessors.

Freddy also has a shit ton of trade with powerful foreign nations, from Kislev to Ulthuan and now even the Dwarven Karaks. This is something that most in the Empire cannot say they have, and is something that should give Freddy a leg up financially.

Ostland also no longer has the Forest of Shadows after the Vampire War, meaning that the gigantic forest can now be used for wealth and settlement instead of being a constant thorn on the side of Ostland. All of the land now being available should give Freddy a shit ton of money.

So yeah, if Torroar wants to make this change because it's unreasonable to have so many well equipped armies constantly trained and ready for the price we have been paying, than I'm down for that.

But there shouldn't be a change if it's just for balancing reasons.
Freddy has more than earned the stupendous amount of money he brings in, with blood, sweat, and tears.
 
@TheFourthman

The Army of Ostland and Army of the Forest have a central main barracks that they share inside Wulfenburg - though they are not constantly berthed inside of it, while the Army of the Mountain has separated barracks across the range in the various forts and keeps there. At the same time, the Army of the Forest has certain barracks in the major settlements, such as Salkalten or Jegow, that they can make use of if required - though they spend almost all their time patrolling through the forest, returning for R&R on a schedule. For the most part currently however the Army of the Forest does things as a block - there is already a military action that was not selected for this turn which would have decentralized them, giving them separate barracks/guard houses across the forest. The Army of Ostland was specifically noted to have dispersed back into Wulfenburg, and its surrounding area. They aren't forced to go to the barracks, but that is the mustering point when deployment is imminent, as well as the training area - as well as the land just outside of the city for more large scale training. Formations, that sort of thing. They pay for the food with their pay, or, alternatively, eat at the barracks. They don't disperse all the way back to their homes if they came from, like, Schonfeld, until they retire or are retired, I suppose. There are quartermasters present, majority human, but with a significant minority of halflings.

As for Fred...let's go to...the front paaaaaaaaaagggggeeeeeee! [Sigh]

" Equipment is better, upgraded to minor plating with chainmail, breastplates, greaves and gauntlets. Heavy leather padding exists where metal does not, and depending on the unit may be layered with it. This will be uniform across the ranks unless logically impossible i.e. Doomspheres."

Maintenance is largely relegated to the army's camp followers or, now, the Street of Steel, when returning to Wulfenburg. Fitting is done by the army, and if adjustments need to be made...well, suck it up, buttercup, get some muscles and grow into it. If it's truly egregious, actual adjustments might be made, but not necessarily. No, he cannot grab equipment that isn't his. He gets his kit. There are many like it, but that kit is his, at least until he leaves the army. Street of Steel specifically - as according to Front Page - also reduces the maintenance costs and what not to a certain extent. So that's that. If he can fix it on his own, great! Same for his bow, but if he can't, yeah, someone else probably can. A significant amount of it is in-house things, because people who come to be archers more often than not know how to fix their own bows, etc. Or the Quartermaster goes and gets a fletcher, or a new bow, or it gets tossed with other things that are repaired by fletchers/engineers/others who can. As for the handguns and cannons questions, that's what the engineers are for, who are present for repairs and maintenance of such things - though the handgunners are taught to perform minor fixes if required. The engineers are present for repairing and maintenance of all specialist equipment, because...well, they're there, and they are the ones who make and fix the things? Yeah.
 
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Massgamer said:
From what you just said the new system would be better since it requires us to more seriously think about our actions in regards to our economy rather than generally throw gold at problems.

Since we are playing as Freddy, a count of an entire province, it makes sense that we need to balance what we want to do and what we can afford doing. Past counts have had to do the same thing after all, assuming they weren't horribly corrupt or something.
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The real question should be which is going to be less of a pain in the ass for Torroar.
 
Raichu1972 said:
But there shouldn't be a change if it's just for balancing reasons.
Freddy has more than earned the stupendous amount of money he brings in, with blood, sweat, and tears.
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Not saying Freddy hasn't earned it, and we would still be making a profit even with new system and we can still continue to take actions that overall increase income like how in a few turns our Jade Wizards will hopefully be making farm income much higher from more productive land.
lancelot said:
The real question should be which is going to be less of a pain in the ass for Torroar.
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I do also believe this should be a considerable factor when making decision.
 
...Why would we change 24 years of game mechanics? The system isn't unwieldy. We've started as a broken, impoverished province and worked out way into one of the richest provinces in the empire. We earned our current status, and we are in no way overpowered. Changing now would be a huge break in the suspension of disbelief, and is completely unnecessary.

We have a lot of gold now for realistic in-game reasons, and it would be nonsensical to change it now. What, are half the provinces in the empire going to have their militaries gutted because of a retcon?
We don't have population figures. Warhammer is known for large armies constantly fighting. Just let the system be. If this were a brand new quest or the mechanics were starting to become too complex (Eg: Deus Ex Mechanicus), we could talk about adjusting mechanics, but neither of those are the case.

Our province is in a golden age due to long, hard work, and it would feel wrong to change that.
 
Massgamer said:
Not saying Freddy hasn't earned it, and we would still be making a profit even with new system and we can still continue to take actions that overall increase income like how in a few turns our Jade Wizards will hopefully be making farm income much higher from more productive land.

I do also believe this should be a considerable factor when making decision.
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Yeah, we'll still make a profit, but the point of contention I have is when you said this:

it makes sense that we need to balance what we want to do and what we can afford doing

I disagree with that.
There was a point when we had to carefully consider what actions we can take and how to keep our economy in balance, because one bad decision could ruin the whole thing.
I believe that we should be beyond that point.

We should be able to fund any option reasonably given to us, from infrastructure projects to diplomacy missions to spy networks to naval affairs.
We are no Marianburg or Tilean Merchant Prince, but Freddy should have the income to do things that seem feasible for an Elector Count to want to do.

To give an example: Freddy should be able to constantly fund infrastructure, such as Temples, Roads, and Castles, because he has a huge surplus income and as an Elector Count would actually care about doing such a thing.

Freddy should not be able to hire literally every available mercenary company, or consistently bribe everyone he meets with a shit ton of money, or in general be able to spend his way out of literally all of his problems.

Freddy is, and should be, supremely wealthy, but should not be able to use wealth as his superpower like Batman, if that makes sense.
 
Massgamer said:
From what you just said the new system would be better since it requires us to more seriously think about our actions in regards to our economy rather than generally throw gold at problems.

Since we are playing as Freddy, a count of an entire province, it makes sense that we need to balance what we want to do and what we can afford doing. Past counts have had to do the same thing after all, assuming they weren't horribly corrupt or something.
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I completely and utterly agree.

Having a more realistic upkeep would ensure we have to be more careful with our choices. Look at the discussion in the thread, we keep arguing martial against intrigue and we never actually give a thought on stewardship as we more or less swim in gold.

Look at it. Having to find balance between our earnings, expenses, armies and economies means we can't just give Talabecland 10k plus guns and cannons lightly, or pay off the dwarves 7.5k to start grudge negotiations without thinking it through, or mean that we should take the trade dispute with Marienburg much more seriously. It means that to sustain bigger economic growth, we may need to do so at the cost of downsizing our army and taking on risk, or vice versa.

The new costing system would force our decisions to have much more strategic depth as gold and income would be much more vital in the quest, and from a balance perspective, would be a lot more interesting to play.

... that said I want the old system as I'm a cheap, minmaxing bastard :D

Rhadamanthine said:
...Why would we change 24 years of game mechanics? The system isn't unwieldy. We've started as a broken, impoverished province and worked out way into one of the richest provinces in the empire. We earned our current status, and we are in no way overpowered. Changing now would be a huge break in the suspension of disbelief, and is completely unnecessary.
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Also agreed. If done now, a lot of our previous actions would retroactively fail to make sense (ie. At those costs, we might not have been able to maintain 3 armies, and as such, we might have never gone to Karak Ungor and the like.)

If Torroar ever does decide to shift the money system, I would suggest he do it in the form of upgrades, that way, he could balance the thing slowly, allowing us to adapt and for him to gauge a decent balance.
 
I'l just chime in and say don't change it. That takes work for no reason and 'realism' is boring. I like fantasy and this is warhammer FANTASY.

If you want realistic economies that don't work the way you want it too then live your life.
 
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I think increasing the cost would probably be a good idea. Also, in a totally random side note, I'd recommend that you use spoilers like some of the other CK 2 quests do for easier reading and separation of option categories.
 
Aleadrex said:
I completely and utterly agree.

Having a more realistic upkeep would ensure we have to be more careful with our choices. Look at the discussion in the thread, we keep arguing martial against intrigue and we never actually give a thought on stewardship as we more or less swim in gold.

Look at it. Having to find balance between our earnings, expenses, armies and economies means we can't just give Talabecland 10k plus guns and cannons lightly, or pay off the dwarves 7.5k to start grudge negotiations without thinking it through, or mean that we should take the trade dispute with Marienburg much more seriously. It means that to sustain bigger economic growth, we may need to do so at the cost of downsizing our army and taking on risk, or vice versa.

The new costing system would force our decisions to have much more strategic depth as gold and income would be much more vital in the quest, and from a balance perspective, would be a lot more interesting to play.
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Eh, Stewardship has been brought up in the waifu discussions before. The fact that we are swimming in gold and going through a golden age caused by the relative safety high martial has provided us have been levered as a counterargument.

This is why the statement of "we don't need more income*" kept being thrown around. Gold is/was flowing in faster than we can really spend it and it's being pumped into Ostland's economy in the hopes that it'll be here to stay.

Now, there's something to be said for income gradually becoming more of an issue again as a result of lower stewardship in the family, but that would probably have to wait until after Freddy(or more accurately:Natasha) bites it before it starts seriously backsliding unless it's something like Beastmen/Greenskins sacking some of our stills/breweries or increased levels of piracy coupled with poor Naval rolls.
Or, y'know, Nuln intruding on Ostland's arms deals with other provinces/trying to burn down the gunnery school.

If the intent is to start phasing in a relative decline of Ostland's economy relative to the other provinces of the Empire? It'd make sense to have the golden age not skip the silver age bronze age and heroic age before it finally hits rock bottom with the iron age unless something drastic happens to disrupt our production facilities or trade network. Like an everchosen, a Waaagh!!! or another civil war.

*misinterpreted as "we don't need more money" by detractors IIRC.
 
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So besides injecting some more realism into it and put more weight into the economic side of actions that would force us to consider things more closely in future, I think it might make things more interesting quest wise since more heavy decision making can seriously effect what paths we walk down.

An example being that say we come across two highly expensive actions that both have their own unique benefits and possibly downsides. We have to seriously consider which one we should send money on, and based on that decision there could be interesting butterfly effects as a whole.

If that makes any sense to people.

Perhaps it might also makes things easier for GM since we have to more slowly effect change within province since we have to build up economy before enacting any major stewardship projects.

@torroar somewhat related but do you roll in background for negative economy events like a bad year of harvest or something within province that might negatively effect income or cause us to totally rebuild it? I know there was/is famine in Tilea that is effecting worldwide trade, did that end or is it still a thing?

Would make the economy more of a fluid thing since things can fail or require major rebuilding like in real life.

Like when the Vampire War happened we lost half the population, surely that should have effected overall population somehow but don't recall that it did. Undead should have destroyed farms, businesses, mines, lumbering, etc that we would have had to put resources into fixing.

Granted it was touched upon and done in later actions but don't think we actually loss income during period.
 
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Reading the whole of the Back Alley Dealing omakes, it may have been an utterly horrific, terrifying time, but the comradeship that built up across an entire province, across racial lines, during the Vampire War is incredible in its heartwarmingness.

That is a true echo of what Sigmar dreamed of, fought for, and forged.
 
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