The big problem is that Academy classes take four years to train. Even with accelerated recruitment you don't start seeing the benefits until the third or fourth year of a war,
Narratively speaking, we should be able to make it faster at a cost to crew effectiveness and some Militarization if we really decide we need wartime crew.

[X][REPORT] Syndicate resilience and potential vulnerabilities to reduce resilience.
 
The big problem is that Academy classes take four years to train. Even with accelerated recruitment you don't start seeing the benefits until the third or fourth year of a war, and the extra recruitment will stop as soon as the war ends. Plus a fair chunk of your volunteer forces will leave to go back to civilian life.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying it's not something I'd care to rely on. In particular, it doesn't help us deal with the need to replace crew casualties

If the Cardassians lose five thousand spacers they can draft five thousand more and keep fighting, as long as they have ships. If we lose five thousand spacers and don't have replacements (given that an Excelsior crew is about, oh, 600-800 and a Connie crew is 300-400)... we're sunk.

Those two statements seem a little inconsistent with each other. The Cardassians can draft all the spacers they want, but I don't see why it would take them less time to train theirs then it takes us to train ours. If they can train their people in less than 4 years, we could no doubt do the same in exigencies of wartime.

Also, while the Cardassian might technically practice conscription, in practice I don't see why they'd ever need to, at least for starship crew. (Ground service might be another matter, but even then I'm not sure.) Given Cardassian attitudes glorifying military service and propaganda, even the lowliest position on a starship seems likely to be a potion of incredible prestige and reflecting well on the Cardassian's family. Like us, they probably have so many applicants they have to turn most of them away. Why would they ever have to draft anyone?

Really, Star Trek militaries are incredibly personnel light for the size of the populations they're protecting. We're talking a population of billions and a total service population that's probably in the tens of thousands. I have no doubt that if either the Federation or the Cardassians felt an urgent need to vastly expand their personnel pool, they could do so simply by lowering their standards a little and putting out the call.
 
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From a population of tens of billions for either polity, 10000 starship crew is nothing. Even if only 1% of your ten billion in population is fit and willing for service on a starship, you still have one hundred million potential recruits. The main issue for either polity is training. And there ought to never be a need for conscription.
 
Narratively speaking, we should be able to make it faster at a cost to crew effectiveness and some Militarization if we really decide we need wartime crew.
Yeah, but it'll never be fast. Unless we start conscripting spacers from the merchant marine (and it's not clear how much that would help). Or from the member world fleets, and that would be moving the problem, not solving it.

Those two statements seem a little inconsistent with each other. The Cardassians can draft all the spacers they want, but I don't see why it would take them less time to train theirs then it takes us to train ours. If they can train their people in less than 4 years, we could no doubt do the same in exigencies of wartime.
The trick is that the Cardassians have been doing it for decades, so their equipment is designed to be operated by lightly trained conscripts, and they have the facilities to do mass training. By contrast, our entire system is set up around long-service volunteerism.

It's true that they can't replace crews in literally zero time, but they'll inevitably be able to replace them faster. Their crew quality and experience will decline,as the leavening of noncoms and officers who have actual experience degrades. But so will ours, even if we're still rigorously training all our personnel- because five and ten-year long-service veterans are dying and being replaced by rookies... and that's a larger proportion of our total force than of the Cardies'.

Also, while the Cardassian might technically practice conscription, in practice I don't see why they'd ever need to, at least for starship crew. (Ground service might be another matter, but even then I'm not sure.) Given Cardassian attitudes glorifying military service and propaganda, even the lowliest position on a starship seems likely to be a potion of incredible prestige and reflecting well on the Cardassian's family. Like us, they probably have so many applicants they have to turn most of them away. Why would they ever have to draft anyone?
The draft can serve not just as a means of getting unwilling people to fight, but of organizing recruitment.

If you have a million volunteers from all ranks of society, but what you really need are twenty thousand individuals with top-decile intellect and top-decile physical fitness... you draft. "Don't call us, we'll call you." And you also don't have to wait for enough volunteers to show up when suddenly you need more such people. You just pick up the phone.

Where the Cardassians have an advantage over us, really, is that they don't even need to worry about where their high-quality, low-volume manpower pool is coming from. If they need ten units of Enlisted, they just pick up the phone and order ten units of Enlisted, to be delivered in X months' time.

On our side of the fence we might have as many redshirts as we need- but Starfleet will still need to worry about where they're going to come from, when they're going to arrive, and so on. Because unlike the CDF, it doesn't actually control that.
 
The trick is that the Cardassians have been doing it for decades, so their equipment is designed to be operated by lightly trained conscripts, and they have the facilities to do mass training. By contrast, our entire system is set up around long-service volunteerism.

(snip)

The draft can serve not just as a means of getting unwilling people to fight, but of organizing recruitment.

If you have a million volunteers from all ranks of society, but what you really need are twenty thousand individuals with top-decile intellect and top-decile physical fitness... you draft. "Don't call us, we'll call you." And you also don't have to wait for enough volunteers to show up when suddenly you need more such people. You just pick up the phone.

Where the Cardassians have an advantage over us, really, is that they don't even need to worry about where their high-quality, low-volume manpower pool is coming from. If they need ten units of Enlisted, they just pick up the phone and order ten units of Enlisted, to be delivered in X months' time.

And you're basing these statements on.... what? Your personal head canon? Something in DS9 episodes establishing that the vast majority of Cardassians of drafted into service?

Because I don't buy it. Unless we've got a direct statement in canon episodes, it doesn't make any sense to me. If you have a million volunteers then it's easy to pick out the top twenty thousand. No draft needed.

If you have some proof, either from television episodes or from TBG canon, that the Cardassians have some sort of super-fast ability to train new crew, I'd like you to reference it.
 
There are reasons for mandatory service that go beyond the needs of a given service for warm bodies.

For example, social bonding.
Service and training help create nationalism and unity from a shared experience.
Working out how to dodge the draft can do the same, with the bonus of supplying blackmail material to sate security agencies and the under pinnings of widespread corruption.
 
Well, I'm pretty sure Cardassia would have mandatory youth organizations and would heavily conscript young adults into labor organizations and semi-superfluous security troop units whose job is "watch for sabotage," to reinforce the idea that sabotage is actually a problem in their developed society, which it probably isn't compared to random accidents and whatnot.

We've been explicitly told in intelligence briefings that Cardassian conscription means they're resource-limited and not crew-limited, though, and I really don't know how to make it any simpler than that.
 
I don't see why, in a crisis, we couldn't convert a portion of our enlisted in officers, and draw in a large portion of volunteers to quickly fill out the ranks.
 
On a different topic, I'm surprised we haven't had a vote on the commander of the Kadeshi expedition yet. I assumed the Stargazer would have left by now.
 
The Cardassians being resource-limited over crew is better for us anyway. We can blow up convoys and raze mines. Doing so to academies and metropoli tends to be much less in line with the Federation's ideals.
 
I don't see why, in a crisis, we couldn't convert a portion of our enlisted in officers, and draw in a large portion of volunteers to quickly fill out the ranks.
Officers have specific training that enlisted ranks don't normally receive. The only people who have the leadership skills we routinely expect of the officer corps would be our long-service noncoms, and pulling them out of their jobs is going to cause other problems.

The Cardassians being resource-limited over crew is better for us anyway. We can blow up convoys and raze mines. Doing so to academies and metropoli tends to be much less in line with the Federation's ideals.
Honestly, unless your enemy has a magic "fully competent crew seemingly from nowhere in no time" ability like the Jem'Hadar, then it doesn't matter whether they're crew-limited or not, your war aim is still "destroy their ships and occupy the space above their key planets."

Navies take decades to build. It doesn't really matter whether the limiting factor on the size of your navy is crew, resources, berths, or a combination of the above; in wartime you're going to lose ships faster than you can replace them. The real question is, which side loses ships faster? Which side still has a fleet left after the enemy has been fatally whittled down, and is unable to stop their less-damaged opponent from pushing forward and seizing permanent, fixed installations?
 
[X][CARD] Cardassian Tactics Report (Gain +5% combat vsCardassian fleets for the next 12 months)

[X][ROM] Romulan Fleet Strength Report

[X][REPORT] Shipyard Activity Report for: Sydraxians
[X][REPORT] Dawiar Diplomatic Posture Report
[X][REPORT] Background, history, and current status the war between the Licori and the Ked Peddah
 
Officers have specific training that enlisted ranks don't normally receive. The only people who have the leadership skills we routinely expect of the officer corps would be our long-service noncoms, and pulling them out of their jobs is going to cause other problems.

Honestly, unless your enemy has a magic "fully competent crew seemingly from nowhere in no time" ability like the Jem'Hadar, then it doesn't matter whether they're crew-limited or not, your war aim is still "destroy their ships and occupy the space above their key planets."

Navies take decades to build. It doesn't really matter whether the limiting factor on the size of your navy is crew, resources, berths, or a combination of the above; in wartime you're going to lose ships faster than you can replace them. The real question is, which side loses ships faster? Which side still has a fleet left after the enemy has been fatally whittled down, and is unable to stop their less-damaged opponent from pushing forward and seizing permanent, fixed installations?

That isn't necessarily true. Look at the US Navy pre and post WW2. Nations at war invest orders of magnitudes more funds in their navy, especially ones that were relatively demilitarized beforehand. If we do get into a long slugging match with the Cardassians, I think we'll find our shipbuilding capacity explodes as we rush build more 1 mt berths and commandeer civilian berths, and the budget explodes. We got a sense of how quickly the Federation could do things during the Biophage crisis, and that was for less than a year and never above moderate mobilization. We never used it, but there was an option to double construction speed on a berth for a month as well. If we're in a state of emergency for a few years, I can see us being able to build 3-4 Excelsiors a year easily.
 
Three or four Excelsiors a year is still small change compared to the overall size of our fleet... and not very impressive compared to the CDF, either.
 
Three or four Excelsiors a year is still small change compared to the overall size of our fleet... and not very impressive compared to the CDF, either.

Three to four Excelsiors is a third of our current number. Doubling the size of the fleet in three years is not small change. And if anything, I'm probably underselling it. We've been having to fight and scrape for every scrap of resources we get from the Federation. In wartime, they're going to be throwing the full might of a post-scarcity society behind us.

We'll definitely take casualties, no one denies that. But I don't think it'll take more than a year until we're outproducing our losses, and we can ramp it up even further.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_in_World_War_II said:
By war's end in 1945, the United States Navy had added nearly 1,200 major combatant ships, including 27 aircraft carriers and 8 battleships,

https://www.history.navy.mil/research/histories/ship-histories/us-ship-force-levels.html said:
U.S. Navy Active Ship Force Levels, 1938-1944



DATE 6/30/38 6/30/39 6/30/40 12/7/41 12/31/42 12/31/43 12/31/44
BATTLESHIPS 15 15 15 17 19 21 23
CARRIERS, FLEET 5 5 6 7 4 19 25
CARRIERS, ESCORT - - - 1 12 35 65
CRUISERS 32 36 37 37 39 48 61
DESTROYERS 112 127 185 171 224 332 367
FRIGATES - - - - - 234 376
SUBMARINES 54 58 64 112 133 172 230
MINE WARFARE 27 29 36 135 323 551 614
PATROL 34 20 19 100 515 1050 1183
AMPHIBIOUS - - - - 121 673 2147
AUXILIARY 101 104 116 210 392 564 993
SURFACE WARSHIPS 159 178 237 225 282 635 827
TOTAL ACTIVE 380 394 478 790 1782 3699 6084

Notable reference wrt American shipbuilding in WWII
 
I don't think there's even a point to this at this stage, but

[X][CARD] Cardassian Tactics Report (Gain +5% combat vsCardassian fleets for the next 12 months)

[X][ROM] Romulan Fleet Strength Report

[X][REPORT] Shipyard Activity Report for: Sydraxians
[X][REPORT] Dawiar Diplomatic Posture Report
[X][REPORT] Background, history, and current status the war between the Licori and the Ked Peddah
 
Out of curiosity, @NullVoid, is there a particular reason you think that Syndicate resilience and how to lower it is less important than the three things you voted for? Remember, you don't have to vote for an exact copy of someone else's plan via copy-paste. Line-item votes are a good opportunity for us to use critical thinking, and this is a line-item vote not a plan vote.
__________________

@aeqnai, @Nervos Belli ...

Looking at the US mobilization in more detail, and not just as abstract numbers, some trends stand out.

1) The classes of ship that boomed the most rapidly were amphibious craft, destroyer escorts, light patrol and auxiliary craft, and so forth- ships of less than 5000 tons or so. Escort carriers also boomed.

2) By contrast, the numbers of battleships, carriers, and cruisers (ships over about 10000 tons) increased only slowly until 1943, at which point the cruiser and (especially) carrier numbers grew quickly, though battleship numbers grew little no faster than they'd been growing before the war.

Why is this so? Because by and large...

War Mobilization Changes Things, Not Just Accelerates Them

This is an important concept. During wartime, people look at every part of a nation's industrial infrastructure and ask "what can this do for the war effort?"

The trick is, some kinds of infrastructure (like battleship-sized construction berths) are already working for the war effort. You can maybe accelerate them a bit, but not much- note how in the Biophage crisis, accelerating a ship's construction required the commitment of one of our limited number of 'teams.' We never actually did it, precisely because we didn't expect it to make much difference. We MIGHT have done it if we'd had one new explorer almost ready... but that was back in the days when we had like five Excelsiors total, so having one more made a big difference.

So some things aren't going to change much in a state of war.

What you really see is three major changes.

One, factories and so on that used to run slowly start running more quickly, as labor and resources are poured into those facilities at the maximum physically possible rate. This is great for military goods that have to be mass-produced and that the military will be using in the thousands (tanks, planes, rifles, photon torpedoes). It is NOT helpful for things that are probably already being produced at literally the maximum possible rate because the entire economy runs on them (electrical power, oil, dilithium).

Two, things that used to be used for peaceful purposes get repurposed for war use. For example, the US built a huge number of escort carriers during WWII. Why? Because an escort carrier is basically a big freighter with a runway built on top. It's not fast like a 'real' carrier, it's nowhere near as large or capable... But if you can build a freighter in a given shipyard, you can build an escort carrier instead, in about the same amount of time. So a lot of US civilian shipyards, in addition to running faster due to the war, could be easily repurposed to build escort carriers. The result? Escort carrier spam!

Three, there is a tendency to ruthlessly focus on projects that will make a difference to the outcome of the war. For example, the Royal Navy canceled a lot of battleship production in 1939 and 1940. That sounds like insanity- until you reflect that Britain was in a desperate struggle for survival. In particular they were fighting German air attacks and U-boats... And battleships that wouldn't be finished until 1944 or so weren't going to help them win that specific fight. Even after they were finished, Germany didn't have many battleships of its own, so there was a high risk of new British battleships just sitting around with nothing to do. Waste of time. Therefore, the British battleships were canceled, so that resources could instead be committed to something that would matter to whether or not Britain could win the war.

Now, I have to go for at least a few minutes, so I won't have time to talk about the implications of all this right now. I hope that people agree that these are the three main things that happen during war mobilization.

My views on what we can expect from war mobilization flow out of the things I say in this post.
 
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