To take advantage of the expanded Academy we need more shipyard berths, though. Also, I thought building the Amarkian auxiliary shipyards covered us for the next generation medical ships. They'll be produced there.
We could probably use the expanded academy more than we need the Ferrasian shipyard-that and the UP expansion is a bit of a luxury and one we may be able to do without this year or next. My personal thoughts are that we should look into the UP expansion, Academy Expansion, get the colonies (no brainers there), and maybe budget for a slightly inefficient 20 pp expansion in the Vulcan sector so we can get closer to the dream of having a escort assembly line. I'd be willing to short our diplomatic efforts this year to get that goal, and would accept only 2 or 3 pushes to squeeze under the bar.
 
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Trying to catch up with mapping.

One of the captain's logs talked about exploring newly claimed territory which the Rigellians are helping with mapping, so apparently not just their previous claims, and which includes systems coreward of Rigel.

The Hortani are somewhere coreward of Rigel, but given that the Miracht didn't run into them under Thuir, in particular not even when they spent the whole ghosts and whispers arc exploring 4a, nor did we encounter them when discovering Ke'luur or when starting construction of the research colony there, nor did the Rigellians previously know about them, so they have to be a bit further away and not overlap any of the mentioned subsectors. They are also large enough to have multiple colonies, so they probably at least partially off the current map. IC all we know about is the location of their closest colony.

W know even less about the location of the other two new contacts.

Anything we know enough about to place still missing?
 
That's not true, his first rear admiral posting was as commander of Starbase 1, and IIRC he was promoted at the end of 2302. Might be off by a year but definitely not more than that.
It would appear I am mistaken, then. I'd forgotten that starbase commanders were always admirals. My apologies.

That said, this is still a pretty short total time spent in admiral rank. Maybe not unheard of or unthinkable, but short.

So if we were to put Sulu in charge, then Sulu is being bumped over people whose tenure as a vice admiral may very well exceed his entire career at flag rank. Until the past three years or so, all he commanded was a single starbase, and then the relatively small and unusual Explorer Corps.

He's good, but is he really that much better than Sousa, or for that matter ch'Vohlet or Erikson? His bonuses at rear and vice admiral rank don't uphold that.

Honestly this is a why not both situation. We can order an expansion at Ferasa then the following snakepit get an expansion at utopia going. Spreading out the yards is one way to avoid any one race dominating starfleet.
Utopia Planitia Yard orbits the planet Mars, which is in Sol system. Building more yards at Sol (which already has the San Francisco Yard too) is not really 'decentralizing' Starfleet.

Right now our distribution of berths is:

Human Human Human Human Human Human Human Human Human
Vulcan Vulcan Vulcan Vulcan
Tellarite Tellarite
Andoria Andoria

We literally have more berths in Sol Sector than in all our other shipyards combined. And adding more berths to Utopia Planitia adds more "Humans" to that list. It also increases the Federation's vulnerability to anything that randomly attacks Earth, which it seems like every damn threat to the Federation always does... Probably because they know it's our greatest weak point.

So we have either 134 or 129 political will (depending on if Ibmaian's audit gets accepted) and might easily get another 5 or 10 in 2312Q1 events. Call it 139pp. New options may appear, of course, but my Snakepit list would be something like...

Because why not both?
Among other things, because we may want to do something to increase crew output? We've kicked our crew availability problems down the road thanks to Mbeki saving the crew of the Miracht (which can be used to staff another Excelsior, which in turn frees up 6/5/5 crew for other ships).

But we haven't solved our crew problem; we're still pretty much crew-limited even on our current berthing infrastructure. Spending 75pp to expand our berths while spending nothing to increase recruitment seems counterproductive.

To take advantage of the expanded Academy we need more shipyard berths, though.
We can take advantage of the expanded Academy now, saving them to fill ships we build in berth we obtain later. The reverse is not true, or at least not very practical- for us to build ships we can't crew, until the Academy gets around to supplying more people to put in them.

So all things considered, I'd rather frontload my Academy expansions than my berths right now. Especially since we've got a very active construction program planned that is turning out new ships quite rapidly.

Trying to catch up with mapping...

The Hortani are somewhere coreward of Rigel, but given that the Miracht didn't run into them under Thuir, in particular not even when they spent the whole ghosts and whispers arc exploring 4a, nor did we encounter them when discovering Ke'luur or when starting construction of the research colony there, nor did the Rigellians previously know about them, so they have to be a bit further away and not overlap any of the mentioned subsectors. They are also large enough to have multiple colonies, so they probably at least partially off the current map. IC all we know about is the location of their closest colony.

W know even less about the location of the other two new contacts.

Anything we know enough about to place still missing?
I'm pretty sure the Licori and Ked Paddah are to coreward/trailward of Gaeni space, possibly on what would be the Romulan side of the Neutral Zone if we extend the Neutral Zone to coreward as I'm pretty sure I've been advocating we arrange with the Romulans.

@AKuz, back me up here, we definitely want a well defined Neutral Zone Plus, rather than our space sloppily "wrapping around" into what the Romulans view as their future territory for expansion. If the Romulans wind up having to remodel their Senate for a bigger floor, well, they'd probably rather do that than the alternative.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that the Ked Paddah are Romulan affiliates. Just because we haven't seen evidence of the Klingons and Romulans expanding out on their own borders facing away from us, doesn't mean they aren't doing it.
 
To take advantage of the expanded Academy we need more shipyard berths, though.

Not really. We're just swapping future refits or escort builds for cruisers in the case that there are no additional berths.

And it's far more important to order Academy expansions ahead of time than berths, as the effect takes many years to accumulate.

Also, I thought building the Amarkian auxiliary shipyards covered us for the next generation medical ships. They'll be produced there.

I thought we had to do design work. Maybe not. But ship designs are put through the Council, no?
 
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I am...not sure the Romulans would politically go for the affiliation process the same way we, or even the Cardassians, do. It just doesn't sound like how they think about other species.
 
That said, this is still a pretty short total time spent in admiral rank. Maybe not unheard of or unthinkable, but short.

So if we were to put Sulu in charge, then Sulu is being bumped over people whose tenure as a vice admiral may very well exceed his entire career at flag rank. Until the past three years or so, all he commanded was a single starbase, and then the relatively small and unusual Explorer Corps.

He's good, but is he really that much better than Sousa, or for that matter ch'Vohlet or Erikson? His bonuses at rear and vice admiral rank don't uphold that.

At this level it's less about how 'good' you are and more about what your philosophy for Starfleet will be. Which, sure, the Admiral will be controlled by the voters, but their personality and outlook may influence the voting options we get. I feel I've already made may case for why 'time in rank' isn't as important as for lower ranking promotions.

Utopia Planitia Yard orbits the planet Mars, which is in Sol system. Building more yards at Sol (which already has the San Francisco Yard too) is not really 'decentralizing' Starfleet.

Right now our distribution of berths is:

Human Human Human Human Human Human Human Human Human
Vulcan Vulcan Vulcan Vulcan
Tellarite Tellarite
Andoria Andoria

We literally have more berths in Sol Sector than in all our other shipyards combined. And adding more berths to Utopia Planitia adds more "Humans" to that list. It also increases the Federation's vulnerability to anything that randomly attacks Earth, which it seems like every damn threat to the Federation always does... Probably because they know it's our greatest weak point.

Now to be fair, we've never once gotten any directive to decentralize. That was something all of us voters decided, especially when we picked the Forward Defense option. Fleet in Being would quite support having a single fortress system with one huge shipyard. And because we did choose Forward Defense, I am in favor of building shipyards in other locations.

That said, UP will obviously always be our biggest and most important yard, and I would be happy to get it up to 4/4 berths so that it can be host prototype builds for all our Explorers and Cruisers, while still being a major production center.

Among other things, because we may want to do something to increase crew output? We've kicked our crew availability problems down the road thanks to Mbeki saving the crew of the Miracht (which can be used to staff another Excelsior, which in turn frees up 6/5/5 crew for other ships).

But we haven't solved our crew problem; we're still pretty much crew-limited even on our current berthing infrastructure. Spending 75pp to expand our berths while spending nothing to increase recruitment seems counterproductive.

We can take advantage of the expanded Academy now, saving them to fill ships we build in berth we obtain later. The reverse is not true, or at least not very practical- for us to build ships we can't crew, until the Academy gets around to supplying more people to put in them.

It's gotten to the point where crew and berths are starting to become equal constraints. That said, I could see going for the UP expansion and an Academy expansion, putting off the start of the Ferasa shipyard until next year.

So all things considered, I'd rather frontload my Academy expansions than my berths right now. Especially since we've got a very active construction program planned that is turning out new ships quite rapidly.

And this year we'll actually be forced to build less than we would like to because a repair job will be occupying a berth. That's a signal to me that it's definitely time to think about expansion.
 
Ferasa takes long so I would rather start them firsto. Also we may want to determine a second spot for a UP type yard. I think Ferasa and the academy expansion and do the up expansion next year since that takes less time. Or change personal to a vice Admiral position and keep Seruk there
 
She dropped her hands suddenly, slapping Hokal on the shoulders. He flinched in surprise and Dukat laughed, "But come now, First Minister, there is no need for hostility! We came here as friends, concerned friends but friends nonetheless. I wish to be your friend, Kusov wants to be your friend. But there is something that you will need to do for that to happen. I want you to envision your entire caste structure, the flimsy hierarchy it is, and I want you to go right to the top of the pyramid, where you," she tapped his shoulder, "Sit. Then, I want you to imagine another level. And on that level is one word -- Cardassian." She smiled brightly, all teeth, "Am I clear?"
Dukat sounds very much like her descendant, especially here.
 
So we have either 134 or 129 political will (depending on if Ibmaian's audit gets accepted) and might easily get another 5 or 10 in 2312Q1 events. Call it 139pp. New options may appear, of course, but my Snakepit list would be something like:
  • NEW Request Mining Colony at Mining Colony Option, Corvo System, 8pp (4 turns, +5 (10) sr/yr) [New Site in Captain's Logs]
  • NEW Request Mining Colony at Aga Carmide system, 8pp (4 turns, gain 7rp/year) [New Site in Captain's Logs]
  • Request focused Diplomacy on (Honiani), 10pp
  • Request focused Diplomacy on (Yrillians), 10pp
  • Request focused Diplomacy on (Dawiar), 10pp
  • Request focused Diplomacy on (Ked Paddah), 10pp
  • Request new Shipyard at Ferasa, 35pp, (12 turns, 1 3mt Berth)
  • Request expansion of Utopia Planitia, 40pp, (4 turns, gain 1 3mt, 1 1mt berth)

Because why not both?

Well, if we're going to go for both, why not swap the second shipyard in Ferasa for the one at Amarkia? Ten difference is a good price for a 1 mt berth.
  • Request new Shipyard at Amarkia, 45pp (12 turns, 1 3mt Berth, 1 1mt Berth)
We will likely earn the difference by Q2, and if not, cut out the Ked Paddah Diplomancy.
 
Ferasa takes long so I would rather start them firsto. Also we may want to determine a second spot for a UP type yard. I think Ferasa and the academy expansion and do the up expansion next year since that takes less time. Or change personal to a vice Admiral position and keep Seruk there

Where was the Antares FL in canon, and does anyone think we'll get the chance to build it soon? Iirc it didn't orbit anything and was larger than UP by ds9
 
Well, if we're going to go for both, why not swap the second shipyard in Ferasa for the one at Amarkia? Ten difference is a good price for a 1 mt berth.
  • Request new Shipyard at Amarkia, 45pp (12 turns, 1 3mt Berth, 1 1mt Berth)
We will likely earn the difference by Q2, and if not, cut out the Ked Paddah Diplomancy.
The PP price of the two yards should be identical, though we get Amarkia all in one go while we need to subsequently buy the 1mt Berth in Ferasa.
 
One advantage (or possibly disadvantage if you're looking at burnout) of Sousa is that she's old hat. Not meaning years in rank, but she was the first VA Kahurangi appointed and she's been around for practically all of Kahurangi's tenure. That means she's likely to have the smoothest transition, and also likely to avoid possible Old Guard troubles from Kahurangi's own Old Guard. That's something I might expect with someone newer like Sulu, for example.
 
I can't find anything that really indicates Antares Fleet Yards was bigger than UP.

EDIT: Probably the best option for it's identity assuming it's close to Bajor would be the Rethelia yards if/when the Seyek become a member species. :V
 
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I am...not sure the Romulans would politically go for the affiliation process the same way we, or even the Cardassians, do. It just doesn't sound like how they think about other species.
Well, the Cardassians don't "affiliate" with other species the way we do, either- but they still have affiliates. Several of them, even.

Maybe it would be more accurate to describe the hypthetical unconfirmed relation between the Ked Paddah and the Romulans as "client" or "minion" or "proxy" or whatever, as opposed to "affiliate." But you still know what I mean.

Well, if we're going to go for both, why not swap the second shipyard in Ferasa for the one at Amarkia? Ten difference is a good price for a 1 mt berth.
  • Request new Shipyard at Amarkia, 45pp (12 turns, 1 3mt Berth, 1 1mt Berth)
We will likely earn the difference by Q2, and if not, cut out the Ked Paddah Diplomancy.
Because we can probably get the extra one-megaton berth somewhere else soon, for the same 10pp price we'd pay for it this way. Also, diplomacy with the Ked Paddah is especially desirable because we really, really do not want them dropping to negative relations and turning into Sydraxians II: Electric Bugaloo.

At this level it's less about how 'good' you are and more about what your philosophy for Starfleet will be. Which, sure, the Admiral will be controlled by the voters, but their personality and outlook may influence the voting options we get. I feel I've already made may case for why 'time in rank' isn't as important as for lower ranking promotions.
As I see it, here is the requirements for the position of Admiral of Starfleet are:

1) Political Suitability
What this means depends on context. When Kahurangi was selected the main criterion was "not being affiliated with Admiral Rogers," which is how Kahurangi got selected in the first place, with perhaps the strongest other contender being Sousa.* Now, the criteria are more complicated. They include commitment to the expansion of the Federation, since the current president is an expansionist. They include the likelihood that the new admiral will agree to step down gracefully after five years or so, so as to set the desired precedent of shorter terms of office. They include the ability to work with the Council, obviously. They include species- it would be nice to have a nonhuman to break up the long streak(s) of humans in charge of Starfleet, subject to the limits imposed by the other qualifications listed below, and by other political requirements listed above.

*And by the way, did you notice how Sousa worked smoothly with the person who beat her for appointment to a prized position, for about ten years? How she did that without undermining her, or even trying to maneuver her into retiring, to clear the way for her own career ambitions? I think she's earned kudos for that.

2) Administrative Ability
This is critical, especially because the Federation has no civilian bureaucracy in place to support Starfleet as an organization. An administrative incompetent can cause devastating harm to Starfleet, and the president would be very unwise to select anyone, no matter how politically desirable they are, who is not up to the task of running Starfleet as a whole. It would be folly to appoint anyone who lacks the experience and skills, or to gamble on anyone who has not proven that they have the experience and skills, to handle such a critically important task.

Basically, this restricts the candidate pool to people who have demonstrated a high, and preferably diverse, ability to handle posts of administrative responsibility in Starfleet. That means the people who have held the rank of vice admiral, OR perhaps a very small minority of the rear admirals. And candidates who have

3) Support Within Starfleet
This is important, but not as important as (1) or (2). The reason it matters is that, well, the Admiral has to work with Starfleet, not just administer it. This is why it would be a bad idea, for instance, for the president to just take the head of the Vulcan member fleet and put them directly in charge of Starfleet. Even if the Vulcans agreed, and even assuming the Vulcan admiral in question was very qualified and politically desirable... they're not Starfleet. They have few or no connections within Starfleet and would not be able to just move in at the top and start giving orders without a lot of friction. This isn't a major issue in this go-around, but hypothetically could be.

...

The only reason (3) is an issue at all is because it ties into seniority. There are a LOT of admirals in Starfleet who will not be happy if someone else is visibly being "jumped up" over their heads very rapidly and placed in command of Starfleet. They might reasonably point out "well, Uhura and Sulu held the same rank on the same ship back in the day, both have roughly equally strong resumes, why is Sulu getting massively fast-tracked ahead of other people who have been flag officers since the early 2290s when she isn't?" Since there isn't a particularly good explanation for this other than "PCs really really want Sulu in charge," that's going to be a problem.

[Incidentally, this sounds like the kind of internal administrative problem that turns helpful admirals into Old Guard no-bonus admirals]

(2) also ties into the seniority issue, but in a different way. Six or seven years ago, Sulu had commanded ships and a starbase, and that was it. He'd never been the head of any Federation-wide overall bureaucratic department of Starfleet. Even then, he was placed in charge of the Explorer Corps, which is administratively small, which delegates a lot of its power and authority to the explorer captains, While he shows promise of being quite good at this job, the reality is that Sulu hasn't had much opportunity to fully display the kind of administrative ability the head of Starfleet needs. By contrast, Sousa has been running Shipyard Operations for about ten years, supervising what almost has to be the largest overall buildup of both infrastructure and ships in the history of the Federation. She is very qualified in this respect- and the same could be said of Erikson, ch'Vohlet, and arguably Ablett. If we were going to ignore seniority, (2) would probably argue in favor of us appointing ch'Tharvasse, who as Kahurangi's chief of staff has been massively involved in every part of the Admiral of Starfleet's job for roughly seven years. Not so much Sulu, who's only had a large department of Starfleet to run since Ablett went on sabbatical back in 2309.

Now, you made a major point about the importance of (1), and you weren't wrong to do so. But Sulu doesn't really have strong qualifications there except those shared by other candidates. He hasn't shown exceptional signs of being better at handling Federation politics than the other vice admirals. His 'expansionist' credentials aren't better than the other vice admirals. He's just as much a continuation of the 'humans in charge' streak as Sousa would be. About the only real point in Sulu's favor from the president's point of view is that he's older than the other candidates, and therefore more likely to retire sooner than them... but even that is far from certain and would depend on Sulu's physical health and mindset.

So it comes down to the fact that in the first metric (political qualification) Sulu is not remarkable compared to the field of competitors. In the second metric, he might be equal or superior to them, but has not had a chance to fully prove his ability- as they have. In the third metric, he would probably run into more problems than any of the candidates Oneiros listed.

That said, UP will obviously always be our biggest and most important yard, and I would be happy to get it up to 4/4 berths so that it can be host prototype builds for all our Explorers and Cruisers, while still being a major production center.
Personally I favor 4/1/4 (with the odd '1' being a two-megaton berth). I'd like to build A two-megaton berth somewhere in the Federation, so that we have the engineering know-how to build more when we want- because at some point we'll probably want to commission a new ship class of between one and two million tons, and it'd be nice to have at least SOME options for places we can work on those besides "in our designated Excelsior berths."

Plus, I have this image of the Cardassians attacking us and us pulling out the Kadak-Tor for refit and induction into Starfleet service, since seriously, why not do that if they're already at war with us anyway? And we'd need a two-megaton berth for that. :D

Now that being said, my real point is that even given our commitment to building some more berths soon, expanding Utopia Planitia is not our priority. And expanding yard infrastructure to the four new member races probably should be, because it signals to them their equal partnership in the Federation, just as starting yards over Andoria and Tellar Prime signaled that to the Tellarites and Andorians.

[The Betazoids are arguably not as key here because there are still a LOT of cheap ways to get one-megaton berths, so 30pp for a pair of them isn't that good a deal]

It's gotten to the point where crew and berths are starting to become equal constraints. That said, I could see going for the UP expansion and an Academy expansion, putting off the start of the Ferasa shipyard until next year.

And this year we'll actually be forced to build less than we would like to because a repair job will be occupying a berth. That's a signal to me that it's definitely time to think about expansion.
Given that we nearly always fill up our berths anyway, and hardly ever leave berths open for more than a few months at a time, regardless of how many there are, I don't agree.

None of us would want to leave a berth standing empty if we have a choice. But as long as we have a construction project in every berth, we will ALWAYS have to curtail construction whenever a ship needs repairs (unless we can luck out and contract with a member world or affiliate, like we did when Courageous hit that mine).

So it's a circular issue. Whenever we create a new berth, we create new construction projects to fill it, and whenever all our berths are full, you take that as evidence we need more.

The only solutions are to actually leave berths permanently open, which has not hitherto been our policy... Or to simply accept that we'll have to bump certain kind(s) of construction if we need to do major repair work on our ships, and try to make sure we always have a berth or two available for that purpose on reasonably short notice at any single time.
 
Well, the Cardassians don't "affiliate" with other species the way we do, either- but they still have affiliates. Several of them, even.

Maybe it would be more accurate to describe the hypthetical unconfirmed relation between the Ked Paddah and the Romulans as "client" or "minion" or "proxy" or whatever, as opposed to "affiliate." But you still know what I mean.

The Cardassians are semi-fascist pragmatists. They could believe in the concept of "fellow travelers" even if it's also very much tied to subordination to the Cardassians. The Romulans, well, don't. The only model we have for the Romulans forming a relatively close relationship with another species are the Remans. Who admittedly come from a pretty terrible movie, but suggest that the Romulans would treat any species they incorporate as a literal underclass and not allow them to exist as any kind of notionally separate entity.
 
2) Administrative Ability
This is critical, especially because the Federation has no civilian bureaucracy in place to support Starfleet as an organization. An administrative incompetent can cause devastating harm to Starfleet, and the president would be very unwise to select anyone, no matter how politically desirable they are, who is not up to the task of running Starfleet as a whole. It would be folly to appoint anyone who lacks the experience and skills, or to gamble on anyone who has not proven that they have the experience and skills, to handle such a critically important task.

Basically, this restricts the candidate pool to people who have demonstrated a high, and preferably diverse, ability to handle posts of administrative responsibility in Starfleet. That means the people who have held the rank of vice admiral, OR perhaps a very small minority of the rear admirals. And candidates who have

One you've shown you can handle an organization of a certain size, handling an organization of an even bigger size isn't any harder. The numbers get bigger and you have more people below you, is all. I think you're overestimating what it takes to demonstrate this capability.

The only reason (3) is an issue at all is because it ties into seniority. There are a LOT of admirals in Starfleet who will not be happy if someone else is visibly being "jumped up" over their heads very rapidly and placed in command of Starfleet. They might reasonably point out "well, Uhura and Sulu held the same rank on the same ship back in the day, both have roughly equally strong resumes, why is Sulu getting massively fast-tracked ahead of other people who have been flag officers since the early 2290s when she isn't?" Since there isn't a particularly good explanation for this other than "PCs really really want Sulu in charge," that's going to be a problem.

I think a LOT of admirals in Starfleet, even Sulu's rivals for positions, consider him to be a living legend of Starfleet and wouldn't have the level of resentment they might for anyone else. In addition to his Explorer career and whatever might be canon from the books, saving a major portion of the Federation fleet by riding in with the Klingons during the Biophage Crisis is still in easy memory.

In other words, the answer to "why is Sulu getting fast-tracked" would probably be "because he probably is better than me, fair enough". (As for comparisons with Uhura, she's not all that far behind Sulu, having made Rear Admiral and having been given a very important posting running anti-Syndicate operations.)

(2) also ties into the seniority issue, but in a different way. Six or seven years ago, Sulu had commanded ships and a starbase, and that was it. He'd never been the head of any Federation-wide overall bureaucratic department of Starfleet. Even then, he was placed in charge of the Explorer Corps, which is administratively small, which delegates a lot of its power and authority to the explorer captains, While he shows promise of being quite good at this job, the reality is that Sulu hasn't had much opportunity to fully display the kind of administrative ability the head of Starfleet needs. By contrast, Sousa has been running Shipyard Operations for about ten years, supervising what almost has to be the largest overall buildup of both infrastructure and ships in the history of the Federation. She is very qualified in this respect- and the same could be said of Erikson, ch'Vohlet, and arguably Ablett. If we were going to ignore seniority, (2) would probably argue in favor of us appointing ch'Tharvasse, who as Kahurangi's chief of staff has been massively involved in every part of the Admiral of Starfleet's job for roughly seven years. Not so much Sulu, who's only had a large department of Starfleet to run since Ablett went on sabbatical back in 2309.

I guess we just have different views on the value of experience here. Three years is plenty of time to show your stuff and learn in a position like that. I mean, come on, if Sulu had been presented as a voting option would you really be writing multi-paragraph dissertations about how he was too inexperienced and no one should vote for him?

Now, you made a major point about the importance of (1), and you weren't wrong to do so. But Sulu doesn't really have strong qualifications there except those shared by other candidates. He hasn't shown exceptional signs of being better at handling Federation politics than the other vice admirals. His 'expansionist' credentials aren't better than the other vice admirals. He's just as much a continuation of the 'humans in charge' streak as Sousa would be. About the only real point in Sulu's favor from the president's point of view is that he's older than the other candidates, and therefore more likely to retire sooner than them... but even that is far from certain and would depend on Sulu's physical health and mindset.

I feel like you're discounting Sulu's in-universe fame completely. He's not some guy no one knows. He's part of a small group of people who literally saved the Earth. He has, in game canon, been described as "a legend of the Federation". Does that make him 'better' at running Starfleet in a day-to-day role? Maybe not. Does that make him more able to handle the politics? Well... it helps. When you have a certain metaphorical weight of fame to throw around, you can get away with more crap. It's just true. Fame brings prestige and even politicians (sometimes especially politicians) respect that.

Now that being said, my real point is that even given our commitment to building some more berths soon, expanding Utopia Planitia is not our priority. And expanding yard infrastructure to the four new member races probably should be, because it signals to them their equal partnership in the Federation, just as starting yards over Andoria and Tellar Prime signaled that to the Tellarites and Andorians.

Expanding UP is not "our" priority? Maybe it's not your priority, but I don't know about everyone else. I place it as a middling high priority.

As for signaling by building new shipyards for the new member worlds, I don't view it as a situation of any urgency. Sure I wouldn't mind having a shipyard for every member world eventually, but I it's not any particular rush. If you'll remember, it was only this most recent Snakepit that it was even put on the table as an option. It's not as you call a a "priority", more something to be slowly gotten around to in the next decade or so. We've let plenty of other Snakepit options sit on the table for years before selecting them.

[The Betazoids are arguably not as key here because there are still a LOT of cheap ways to get one-megaton berths, so 30pp for a pair of them isn't that good a deal]

We also took the Betazoid Counselors option, which likely makes them feel far more partners in the Federation than any shipyard would.

Given that we nearly always fill up our berths anyway, and hardly ever leave berths open for more than a few months at a time, regardless of how many there are, I don't agree.

None of us would want to leave a berth standing empty if we have a choice. But as long as we have a construction project in every berth, we will ALWAYS have to curtail construction whenever a ship needs repairs (unless we can luck out and contract with a member world or affiliate, like we did when Courageous hit that mine).

We'll start leaving berths open when other constraints, either crew or resources, demand that we do. Which is a good signal that it's time to turn around and address those constraints rather than build more berths. As we did very recently by stopping shipyard construction for some years to concentrate on adding more personnel and more resources.
 
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Briefvoice, I think my remarks to you have diverged so far from the rest of what I'm talking about with others that I want to give it its own post.

The Cardassians are semi-fascist pragmatists. They could believe in the concept of "fellow travelers" even if it's also very much tied to subordination to the Cardassians. The Romulans, well, don't. The only model we have for the Romulans forming a relatively close relationship with another species are the Remans. Who admittedly come from a pretty terrible movie, but suggest that the Romulans would treat any species they incorporate as a literal underclass and not allow them to exist as any kind of notionally separate entity.
Which leaves numerous possibilities such as "proxies" or "minions" or "people too weak to be a threat to us, and whom it would be desirable to have doing our bidding, but whom we lack the means to enslave right now."

Again, you know what I mean. There are a variety of ways that the Romulans might choose to interact with the Ked Paddah, or be in some way be aiding them. To emphasize my point:

It would hardly be surprising for us to encounter such species or factions, groups that are in some kind of way associated with the Romulan or Klingon empires, if and when we expand to "wrap around" Romulan or Klingon space.

Do you disagree that this is a possibility? Because if so, then we should talk about that. And if you don't disagree with me about the specific content of the underlined sentence, then I'd rather just wrap up this line of discussion. It's getting kind of pointless and pedantic.

Ferasa takes long so I would rather start them firsto. Also we may want to determine a second spot for a UP type yard.
Why would we need to do that, when we already have numerous sites with NO yards? If the goal is dispersion into smaller yards, we don't want a second big superyard. If the goal is centralized efficiency, we want one big superyard, not two.

I think Ferasa and the academy expansion and do the up expansion next year since that takes less time.
I don't think the time requirement matters very much since we're not desperately short on ships in the near future, but I do think it'd be better to invest in a relatively cheap yard expansion plus an Academy expansion now, and get the expensive yard next turn when we're not spending political will on the Academy.

Or change personal to a vice Admiral position and keep Seruk there
Why do we want to do that?

Where was the Antares FL in canon, and does anyone think we'll get the chance to build it soon? Iirc it didn't orbit anything and was larger than UP by ds9
Pretty close to Bajor, I think.
Personally, I would prefer not to have large yards close to Cardassian space, and to make sure that no more than 10-20% or so of our overall yard capacity is within striking distance of their space. And by 'in striking distance' I mean close enough for them to realistically hope to hit it before we can reinforce the defenses or intercept their raiding fleet.

If we do build yards there, I'd want small yards in the Indorion and Apinae systems where they are protected by member world fleets that are already prepared to resist a Cardassian attack. Not hanging out in deep space.

One advantage (or possibly disadvantage if you're looking at burnout) of Sousa is that she's old hat. Not meaning years in rank, but she was the first VA Kahurangi appointed and she's been around for practically all of Kahurangi's tenure. That means she's likely to have the smoothest transition, and also likely to avoid possible Old Guard troubles from Kahurangi's own Old Guard. That's something I might expect with someone newer like Sulu, for example.
Yeah. Among other things, Sousa herself will probably feel that way if Sulu is promoted over her head.

Despite her ambitions, she was extremely graceful about subordinating herself to Kahurangi, her equal in rank as of 2295 or so, when Kahurangi was promoted over her back in 2300. She remained a graceful subordinate for a long time. I doubt she would feel similarly graceful about subordinating herself to Sulu, who was a captain or a freshly-minted commodore back when she made vice admiral.

And she's far from the only person in Starfleet who would be thinking that Sulu is rising farther and faster than he deserves. Even given that Sulu is undoubtedly ONE OF the best, he doesn't tower over the rest of Starfleet's senior officers like a mighty hypercompetent giant who would obviously deserve to 'fast forward' through the flag rank part of his career.
 
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Why would we need to do that, when we already have numerous sites with NO yards? If the goal is dispersion into smaller yards, we don't want a second big superyard. If the goal is centralized efficiency, we want one big superyard, not two.
And if the goal is to have more berths without any particular care for how centralized they are?
 
[X] Vice Admiral Valentina Sousa

Honestly, I'd have voted for her regardless of whether Sulu was in the ballot or not. Sousa is the better political animal out of all of our flag officers, with the (unlikely but) possible exception of Patricia Chen.
 
There are advantages from a centralized yard. The Tier-5 Parallel Assembly tech that Vehrec notes for example. That's mostly an escort thing, but still.
And sure, work on expanding the berths if that's what's limiting our ship production.
I thought though, that in the long run, we're still more constrained by crew requirements than our ability to weld together new hulls?
 
It just occurred to me that if Sousa is made Admiral, then Patricia Chen would be a very logical person to appoint to Shipyard Operations in Sousa's place, seeing as how she's been running our biggest shipyard for several years. This gives Chen a straightforward career path up the ladder and positions her well to be "admiral after next" in 2320 or so, even without Kahurangi pulling strings on her behalf.

By contrast, Sulu winning means the vacancy is in Tactical. While Chen could be transferred over to Tactical, and she certainly has credentials as a single-ship captain from before 2300, others have pointed out that she doesn't have much special claim to that slot compared to anyone else.

One you've shown you can handle an organization of a certain size, handling an organization of an even bigger size isn't any harder. The numbers get bigger and you have more people below you, is all. I think you're overestimating what it takes to demonstrate this capability.
Sulu's career includes very little contact with the industrial and logistical side of Starfleet, limited direct experience with internal civilian politics as far as we can tell. Does he show every sign of being likely to handle those areas well? Yes. But whereas Sulu has the potential to be very good at these things, Sousa has already proven that she is pretty darn good at them.

Having given this matter due consideration, as I had previously not done because I got caught up in the Sulu-thusiasm, I don't blame Hayley Singh, or the president, if they want to take a few more years before considering it to be an opportune moment to appoint Sulu as head of Starfleet.

I think a LOT of admirals in Starfleet, even Sulu's rivals for positions, consider him to be a living legend of Starfleet and wouldn't have the level of resentment they might for anyone else. In addition to his Explorer career and whatever might be canon from the books, saving a major portion of the Federation fleet by riding in with the Klingons during the Biophage Crisis is still in easy memory.

In other words, the answer to "why is Sulu getting fast-tracked" would probably be "because he probably is better than me, fair enough". (As for comparisons with Uhura, she's not all that far behind Sulu, having made Rear Admiral and having been given a very important posting running anti-Syndicate operations.)
I wouldn't expect massive, paralyzing resentment. But I would expect difficulties, and a degree of concern that Sulu somehow 'pulled strings' with powerful individuals to get a job he's not the best prepared for.

I mean sheesh, Oneiros has literally told us, point blank, both in-character (as Hayley Singh) and OOC that Sulu becoming the next admiral will cause political problems due to his lack of seniority in grade. Do you just... not believe him?

I guess we just have different views on the value of experience here. Three years is plenty of time to show your stuff and learn in a position like that. I mean, come on, if Sulu had been presented as a voting option would you really be writing multi-paragraph dissertations about how he was too inexperienced and no one should vote for him?
No, probably not, because I wasn't thinking this through until recently. Having it explicitly pointed out by Oneiros just how little seniority in grade Sulu has made me think over his career, and realize that he's been racking up promotions very, very fast... mainly because we the players think he's cool (which he is) and want him running Starfleet.

But that's an OOC motivation that doesn't necessarily make him the best choice right now, and I realize that in my focus on Sulu I was neglecting other candidates- in some cases really neglecting, in that it literally hadn't even crossed my mind that Ablett might be eligible, not that I think he's a good choice.

I feel like you're discounting Sulu's in-universe fame completely. He's not some guy no one knows. He's part of a small group of people who literally saved the Earth. He has, in game canon, been described as "a legend of the Federation". Does that make him 'better' at running Starfleet in a day-to-day role? Maybe not. Does that make him more able to handle the politics? Well... it helps. When you have a certain metaphorical weight of fame to throw around, you can get away with more crap. It's just true. Fame brings prestige and even politicians (sometimes especially politicians) respect that.
His well-deserved fame is certainly a powerful asset, and I certainly could see the president talking to Sulu, reaching an arrangement or alliance of sorts with him, and pushing through his promotion to Admiral of Starfleet.

But I can also see her sitting down, thinking the matter over, and deciding that maybe Sulu is not the ideal choice.

Expanding UP is not "our" priority? Maybe it's not your priority, but I don't know about everyone else. I place it as a middling high priority.
[sighs]

What I mean is, of the ways to expand our berths, insofar as that is important, I would rate our priorities as:
1) Start a new member world shipyard or two
2) Expand Utopia Planitia (close second)
3) Expand other member world shipyards (distant third)
4) Expand San Francisco Yard (never do this again)

As for signaling by building new shipyards for the new member worlds, I don't view it as a situation of any urgency. Sure I wouldn't mind having a shipyard for every member world eventually, but I it's not any particular rush. If you'll remember, it was only this most recent Snakepit that it was even put on the table as an option. It's not as you call a a "priority", more something to be slowly gotten around to in the next decade or so. We've let plenty of other Snakepit options sit on the table for years before selecting them.
I'd argue that if this is true, then frankly it's because building new berths at all is not or should not be our top priority. It might be worth spending roughly a quarter of our PP on, but not half or so of our PP.

Which loops us back to the position I favor, of buying one shipyard or major shipyard expansion, and spending on a major crew-increase option.

We'll start leaving berths open when other constraints, either crew or resources, demand that we do. Which is a good signal that it's time to turn around and address those constraints rather than build more berths. As we did very recently by stopping shipyard construction for some years to concentrate on adding more personnel and more resources.
Given the underlined passage, you cannot turn around and claim that our lack of empty berths in which to repair ships is proof that we urgently need more berths.

Especially given that we're trying very hard right now to economize on crew and resources, hence the motive for all those Miranda refits... Because we need all the crew and resources we can store up in order to be able to use our berths to maximum effect in the immediate future!

Right now, we're still constrained by crew. Because if we keep building at maximum rate with the existing berths, we will NOT run out of resources, but we will run out of crew. If we built more berths, we could scrape up the resources to fill them... but we'd just run out of crew faster.

And if the goal is to have more berths without any particular care for how centralized they are?
Then right now the straightforward way to do that it so simply build more berths at our one big superyard. Founding lots of little yards is almost as good a strategy; the worst strategy would be to pile all our berths into three or four facilities that are NOT superyards and are not cheap to expand like the superyard is.

Until and unless Utopia Planitia expansions get significantly more expensive, it is not a good idea to found a second superyard. Plus, it's not like we'd be able to crew the ships rolling out of such a yard now, or in the near future.
 
I thought though, that in the long run, we're still more constrained by crew requirements than our ability to weld together new hulls?

We are, mostly because crew is hardest to increase. The 11 crew of a Renaissance takes seven years to produce from an Academy Expansion. And it's not like we focus hard on crew; we don't even take an expansion every 3 years. The Ambassador is going to crew crunch us hard.
 
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