Who the cares about goodwill with the Kadeshi? We may not see them again for hundreds of years. As for science and exploration, we can have ships do it right here at home where we can benefit.

Look at what just happened. We lost a ship. Maybe if the Stargazer were in service it would have been able to rescue the Lion. Who knows what other people it could save, rescues it could perform, if you didn't send it far away from the people it's supposed to be helping.

I guess UESPA is right... Starfleet acts in service to Starfleet, not the people of the Federation.
If Stargazer were in service...we would have lost Stargazer to that event, or did you miss Onerios saying that event was a Ship-eater that would take an Excelsior, chew her up, and spit out so much scrap metal? Courageous would have been destroyed had she responded, and Captain Chekov would have likely been a dead man now. We could have lost three ships in that event instead of one, so be thankful that you didn't get your wish here. But I will admit, you have a point. Sending an Excelsior is a high cost, a very high cost-just as sending one to the Explorer corps but moreso. We need to justify this cost.

To me, the chief advantage of this long-range mission is scientific and diplomatic and we have no cruiser or escort that can do both of those jobs. We need someone who can spread the Good News of the Federation, and conduct scientific missions, and do so for maybe 25 years. We need to send a statement to anyone who meets the Kadeshi of what the federation IS, a standard-bearer who can shoulder the responsibility of being our face in unknown places, to unknown peoples, and unknown stars. They may encounter fantastic cosmozoa, ancient races, or need to fight a war so that the exiles may enter into the Promised Land. True, the exiles have their own weapons, but...but. The future is unknown and full of bright and dark possibilities alike.

When the british sent off ships like the Beagle, the Erebus, they served two purposes-scientific research, and a justification for a global program of imperial expansion. 'Discovering' things let them stick flags in them, and as we all know, flag based conquest was an incredibly important part of the British Empire's policy. We aren't in the habit of conquering things based on flags and discoveries, but risk is our bussiness gentlebeings. And yes, the British didn't send first-rates or even third-rates on these missions, but that's not how Starfleet rolls. How many of the original Constitutions were lost on their first Five Year Missions? How many good ships were spent, good crew members died? We have been incredibly lucky and maybe we shouldn't push that luck further. Or maybe we should. The Jews have a concept of Tzedakah-which can mean charity, but also means obligation to do good NOW. In this world, in this time, you do as much good as you possibly can. This...feels like good. It feels right and noble. It is romantic and bit silly and we will be deferring the payoff for a long time. There might not even be a payoff, we have no way to know what the results of such a mission will be. But this mission will touch a multitude, a brush stroke of light against the blackness of space, a legend in the making. A century from now, a thousand years from now, ten thousand years? This deed will be long remembered, and it may well echo in history long after the Federation itself is dust.
 
When the british sent off ships like the Beagle, the Erebus, they served two purposes-scientific research, and a justification for a global program of imperial expansion. 'Discovering' things let them stick flags in them, and as we all know, flag based conquest was an incredibly important part of the British Empire's policy. We aren't in the habit of conquering things based on flags and discoveries, but risk is our bussiness gentlebeings. And yes, the British didn't send first-rates or even third-rates on these missions, but that's not how Starfleet rolls. How many of the original Constitutions were lost on their first Five Year Missions? How many good ships were spent, good crew members died? We have been incredibly lucky and maybe we shouldn't push that luck further. Or maybe we should. The Jews have a concept of Tzedakah-which can mean charity, but also means obligation to do good NOW. In this world, in this time, you do as much good as you possibly can. This...feels like good. It feels right and noble. It is romantic and bit silly and we will be deferring the payoff for a long time. There might not even be a payoff, we have no way to know what the results of such a mission will be. But this mission will touch a multitude, a brush stroke of light against the blackness of space, a legend in the making. A century from now, a thousand years from now, ten thousand years? This deed will be long remembered, and it may well echo in history long after the Federation itself is dust.

It's self-indulgence, not "doing good". It doesn't feel good to me, doesn't feel right, and doesn't feel particularly noble. It's also nothing like a 5 year mission.
 
It's self-indulgence, not "doing good". It doesn't feel good to me, doesn't feel right, and doesn't feel particularly noble. It's also nothing like a 5 year mission.
How is it self-indulgent to take one of our finest ships and give it away? It's painful to you, I can plainly see that, but surely you are familiar with the expression of 'giving til it hurts'? I can understand if you don't feel any particular impulse towards this as a good or noble act because it doesn't benefit us in any way materially. Nor will any benefits to our scientific or cartographic knowledge be recouped for potentially decades. Our only immediate benefit is the fact that such generosity may reflect well on us to our affiliates giving us a boost to relations when news gets out, and other political concerns.

As for your statement that this is nothing like a Five year mission...well I must dispute that. It involves a long trip, far from home and safety, and with the potential for great rewards which we cannot reasonably expect to anticipate. The journey is far longer, true. It is farther away, making recall and repair difficult, and putting the ship out of reach in emergency. But these are mainly differences of scale.
 
Whoever is going with the Kadeshi will definitely be boldly going where no one has gone before. By sending a ship with them, we stay true to our mission.
 
How is it self-indulgent to take one of our finest ships and give it away? It's painful to you, I can plainly see that, but surely you are familiar with the expression of 'giving til it hurts'? I can understand if you don't feel any particular impulse towards this as a good or noble act because it doesn't benefit us in any way materially. Nor will any benefits to our scientific or cartographic knowledge be recouped for potentially decades. Our only immediate benefit is the fact that such generosity may reflect well on us to our affiliates giving us a boost to relations when news gets out, and other political concerns.

It's self-indulgent because it's not "our ship" to give away. It belongs to the Federation and was made to help the Federation. I view it as an abdication of responsibility, being generous with something that was entrusted to us for another purpose entirely. The member worlds all chip in to fund these ships. Hell, even non-member worlds add resources. The ships should be used to make their lives better, not sent off on a cool-sounding mission far away.

As for your statement that this is nothing like a Five year mission...well I must dispute that. It involves a long trip, far from home and safety, and with the potential for great rewards which we cannot reasonably expect to anticipate. The journey is far longer, true. It is farther away, making recall and repair difficult, and putting the ship out of reach in emergency. But these are mainly differences of scale.

We've seen what five year missions are like, and they involve a lot of bouncing around the Federation providing constant help to Federation members.
 
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It's self-indulgent because it's not "our ship" to give away. It belongs to the Federation and was made to help the Federation. I view it as an abdication of responsibility, being generous with something that was entrusted to us for another purpose entirely. The member worlds all chip in to fund these ships. Hell, even non-member worlds add resources. The ships should be used to make their lives better, not sent off on a cool-sounding mission far away.

They gave us a mandate for exploration.

We are fulfilling that mandate.

This argument is dead on arrival.
 
They gave us a mandate for exploration.

We are fulfilling that mandate.

This argument is dead on arrival.

Well, it seems like I'm vastly losing this argument as a numbers game... but on the other hand the number of people who typically vote is larger than the number of people who have posted about this. I have to admit, it'll be pretty sweet if the whole idea gets voted down after you and some other posters have treated it as a done deal that you're gently trying to lead me to acceptance on.
 
It's a decent point, methinks. If the council gives the go ahead, should we commit an excelcior?
 
I wonder if it's feasible for the Kadeshi to construct an unmanned subspace relay and leave if behind every few months or so an thereby enable keeping communication channels open. If it is I would be inclined to send an Oberth along. We definitely can't spare any larger ships at the moment. As for sending an EC Explorer along, for the first year or so sure, that would make sense and be not so huge a departure from status quo as to be unmanageable, but they are far too important to send on essentially one way trips.
 
This is one of those moments where I can't really give you the Trek experience. Because if this were setting up as a Star Trek movie moment, this would almost certainly be the time when Nash essentially steals the Stargazer (no doubt in a deranged plot-hole laden manner) and heads off to follow the Kadesh, leaving whoever is in charge of Starfleet, plus the Council, in apoplectic, but ultimately impotent, rage.
 
This is one of those moments where I can't really give you the Trek experience. Because if this were setting up as a Star Trek movie moment, this would almost certainly be the time when Nash essentially steals the Stargazer (no doubt in a deranged plot-hole laden manner) and heads off to follow the Kadesh, leaving whoever is in charge of Starfleet, plus the Council, in apoplectic, but ultimately impotent, rage.
Why would the Council be mad?

That's 40 years of no dealing with Nash!
 
Nobody asks, every time a ship undocks, if it's worth it. Nobody asks if it's worth it to answer a distress call. Nobody asks if it's worth it to run the Five Year Missions. Nobody asked if the Lion's assignment was worth it. Yes, we get things from these activities, but it is no way guaranteed we will do so. Every time a ship undocks it could be lost. Every distress call could be a trap. Every assignment could turn into a deathtrap. We go look at spacial anomalies, knowing we take our lives in our hands every time. We beam down to planets, risking death and injury by whatever we find there. We seek out new life, unsure if it will ever matter. We seek out new civilizations, unsure of our welcome. We boldly go where no one has gone before, unsure that we will ever return.

People die. Ships are lost. What we do has massive risks.

Is it worth it?

The ships keep leaving for the unknown. The recruits keep coming in to man them. The Federation does not hold them back. "Is it worth it?" is not a question the Federation asks. They settled on "Yes." as an answer long ago.
 
This is one of those moments where I can't really give you the Trek experience. Because if this were setting up as a Star Trek movie moment, this would almost certainly be the time when Nash essentially steals the Stargazer (no doubt in a deranged plot-hole laden manner) and heads off to follow the Kadesh, leaving whoever is in charge of Starfleet, plus the Council, in apoplectic, but ultimately impotent, rage.

Me: Don't do it.
Also me: Do it.
 
This is one of those moments where I can't really give you the Trek experience. Because if this were setting up as a Star Trek movie moment, this would almost certainly be the time when Nash essentially steals the Stargazer (no doubt in a deranged plot-hole laden manner) and heads off to follow the Kadesh, leaving whoever is in charge of Starfleet, plus the Council, in apoplectic, but ultimately impotent, rage.

Dooooo EET.
 
You know, all this "fulfilling our mission", "exploring the unknown", "searching for new possibilities" etc. whatever your reason for supporting it is, those will still be fulfilled if we send an Oberth instead of an Excelsior.

Nobody asks, every time a ship undocks, if it's worth it. Nobody asks if it's worth it to answer a distress call. Nobody asks if it's worth it to run the Five Year Missions. Nobody asked if the Lion's assignment was worth it.
Those have proven themselves to be worth it. 20 year long exploration missions hundreds till thousands of lightyears away from Federation space haven't proven themselves yet.
 
Guys, I do not support stealing a ship just because Kirk did it and it's the authentic Star Trek Movie Experience. I mean, Star Trek III is one of the bad ones by traditional accounting.
 
Why does it have to be an Excelsior? Why not an Oberth, or Centaur, or Constellation, or even a Constitution?
 
Those have proven themselves to be worth it.

We may attempt to predict the future by the past, but there is nothing in the future that demands it be so. A hundred elephants can be grey, but the hundred and first can be an albino. This is a well-known gap in inductive logic.

You can't say that every new mission is predictable. They aren't. That's very much the point of them.
 
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Why does it have to be an Excelsior? Why not an Oberth, or Centaur, or Constellation, or even a Constitution?
Presence, mostly from where I sit. I'm looking at this as a dual Scientific/diplomatic mission, and no other ship has a good combo of those two stats. It doesn't have to be one, but it offers the greatest potential ability and a tremendous gesture of trust and good will. I'm gambling that sending a bigger ship with more capability will result in better things.
 
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