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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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I do feel the thought that 'we have to keep moving outward in every direction or we're not really exploring' is a bit deceptive. Space is huge, so just because something is our 'home sector' doesn't mean it's fully explored. It just means we probably have assets in the area that can respond with some speed.

Given the canonical territories, we are very likely to end up using the FIB random-event booster 'Thirst For Anwers' which increases home sector event rates more often as time goes by and we press up against the larger star empires like canonical Tholian Assembly and Gorn Hegemony. It's not that we'll run out of frontiers, but that we'll end up having more of a 'direction' as to where it's politically practical to expand.

 
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Look, the problem with Star Trek mapping is that people always try to make it look like a modern world map and forget how space actually works.

Space is not only three dimensional, but also has an uneven distribution of star clusters with usable resources. Each usable system (or group of systems) is going to be the hub of a sphere of influence, with multiple such spheres branching off of each other depending on where each faction chooses to expand. Rival factions' territories will eventually branch off around, over, under, and between each other.



This is a very, very simplified illustration of how Federation, Cardassian, Klingon, and Romulan space might look when viewed from a single direction. To actually make a good map, you'd need a 3D modeling program and be willing to spend a lot of time detailing all the fiddly little protrusions that wrap around each other. And that's before adding the Tholians, Sheliak, Gorn, Breen...

The 2D map that this quest uses is perfectly fine for our purposes, and anything more would just be too damned much to ask of Oneiros. But its never going to be a perfect fit for the show canon, because you just can't do that with a 2D map.
 
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Vehrec said:
...wow that is a spectacularly bad map.
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Though it is kind of accurate to the situation our quest is in with a few amendments (the fingers of the Klingon empire extending to the alpha quadrant removed with the one actually reaching the Alpha quadrant being either part of the Federation, part of Romulan space, or the neutral zone between the federation and the Romulans, and the Romulans shouldn't be a two quadrant power either.) The map, however, is accurate in the fact that the Federation's center of mass moved spinward from where it was founded.
 
@OneirosTheWriter
If we take Forward Defense, will it be possible to declare "Frontier Zones" or something like that so we can apply it's bonuses towards unexplored frontiers? Like, create a "Core Frontier Sector" covering the region corewards/tailwards of Rigel and Gaen, and a "Rim Frontier Sector" Rimwards of Risa/Dawair? Because forward defense looks a LOT less appealing if the +random events are concentrated only along disputed borders, as would happen if we can't declare frontier regions with border zone type mechanics.
 
I was assuming that any sector not entirely surrounded by other Federation sectors is a frontier sector. Some of them are formal boundaries, but most are not. If this is not the case, then we have a very different dynamic.
 
[X] Continuity
[X] [PERSONAL] Caitian Frontier Police R&D: 2310s Equipment
[x] [DOCTRINE] Admiral Lathriss: Forward Defence
[X][BOOST] Vulcan Science Academy
 
[X] Continuity
[X] [PERSONAL] Caitian Frontier Police R&D: 2310s Equipment
[X] [DOCTRINE] Admiral Lathriss: Fleet in Being
[X][BOOST] Vulcan Science Academy
 
@OneirosTheWriter, I'd like to get confirmation on this because it is really important mechanically, and it has direct effects on an ongoing vote:

Under Forward Defense, can we create border zones in areas where we aren't bumping up against a rival? This is fairly basic information that I think we need, in order to make informed decisions.

And... Hm. Our assets are taking HP loss as expected. I do hope we can at least replace Starfleet losses out of our own enlisted manpower pool

cokerpilot said:
Chekov would like to remind you that he is not in fact a member of any sort of temporal agency and even if he was star fleet regulations reminds that all maters involving temporal affairs are of maximum classification and not to be discussed out side of a state of emergency or a secure federation security location.
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My headcanon is that Chekov isn't a temporal agent yet, in his own timeline. I will be exploring this more in the near future.
 
Simon_Jester said:
@OneirosTheWriter, I'd like to get confirmation on this because it is really important mechanically, and it has direct effects on an ongoing vote:

Under Forward Defense, can we create border zones in areas where we aren't bumping up against a rival? This is fairly basic information that I think we need, in order to make informed decisions.
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Contrawise, is a Home Sector any one that has a member-world in it, or any sector totally surrounded by friendly territory?
 
I don't presume to keep track of most research-related issues, normally, but:

[X] [PERSONAL] Caitian Frontier Police R&D: 2310s Personal Protection

Narratively, I can't imagine the Caitians doing anything other than researching the heck out of this, given the circumstances.

[X] [DOCTRINE] Admiral Lathriss: Forward Defence

Narratively, Lathriss is Amarki and forward defense is a much more Amarki approach, and I think this is one issue where it's also a more Starfleet approach. Starfleet isn't a defensive force, any more than it's an offensive force. It's an exploratory force.

We can argue about the mechanical minmaxing bonuses until the cows come home. But I'd rather embrace the idea that Starfleet belongs 'out there' than the idea that it belongs 'in here.' Let the Romulans keep a fleet-in-being to deter anyone from invading them. Let the Cardassians think that way. We've got space to explore!
 
[X] Base Plan Continuity
[X][BOOST] Vulcan Science Academy
[X][PERSONAL] Caitian Frontier Police R&D: 2310s Equipment
[X][DOCTRINE] Admiral Lathriss: Forward Defence
 
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Leila Hann said:
The 2D map that this quest uses is perfectly fine for our purposes, and anything more would just be too damned much to ask of Oneiros. But its never going to be a perfect fit for the show canon, because you just can't do that with a 2D map.
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No. A two-dimensional representation of the galaxy is not going to be perfect. On the other hand, saying that the galaxy is 'three-dimensional' is disingenuous because it's ignoring the very distribution of stars that you were talking about and the fact the Milky Way is a barred spiral galaxy.

Most of the stars in the galaxy reside along the galactic plane. You can certainly go 'up' or 'down' from that plane and stars will simply be farther between, and as I stated before there is a LOT in each 'sector' of space, more than any normal 'star empire' could feasibly investigate. But the point stands- the Federation is getting large enough that it is going to run into the issue of other 'star empires' like the Cardassians, Klingons, and Romulans bordering it. The fact they CAN travel at FTL speeds and conduct their mission guarantees it.

There will always be a frontier, but we will eventually reach a point where the frontier isn't everywhere.
 
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[X][DOCTRINE] Admiral Lathriss: Forward Defence

In addition to Simon_Jester's arguments, which I find compelling...

[X] [PERSONAL] Caitian Frontier Police R&D: 2310s Personal Protection

Any part of our struggle against the Orion Syndicate that we can turn into science and engineering struggles are ones we should do so. Because those are areas where we have vast amounts of resources to bring into play, and more importantly the Syndicate does not. They've piggybacked off the resources of their society in this regard and are now largely shorn from them. The best battles in counterinsurgency are the ones you can win with R&D and bulldozers.
 
The major problem with show canon vs our map vs all other fanon maps is that the Cardassians explicitly have a Federation, Klingon, and either have a Romulan border or one close to their space. That suggests they're either in the middle of all three powers, or somehow above/below them either entirely or in some areas. The latter option is kinda hard to chart in any conventional 2D sense.

EDIT: I bring this up ALL THE TIME because I remember watching DS9 and being like "??? but how" when they said the Klingons had crossed their border with the Cardassians due to all the maps putting them like, completely opposite each other.
 
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Caitian police R&d is a level 2 tech team, the relevant personal protection tech is new phasors, a 40 pt item (anti-abortion suits don't do anything here). That is 8 to 10 years out. Not likely to have a short term effects vs. Orion.
 
[X] Continuity
[X] [PERSONAL] Caitian Frontier Police R&D: 2310s Equipment
[x] [DOCTRINE] Admiral Lathriss: Forward Defence
[X][BOOST] Vulcan Science Academy
 
[X] Continuity
[X] [PERSONAL] Caitian Frontier Police R&D: 2310s Equipment
[x] [DOCTRINE] Admiral Lathriss: Forward Defence
[X][BOOST] Vulcan Science Academy
 
drake_azathoth said:
No. A two-dimensional representation of the galaxy is not going to be perfect. On the other hand, saying that the galaxy is 'three-dimensional' is disingenuous because it's ignoring the very distribution of stars that you were talking about and the fact the Milky Way is a barred spiral galaxy.

Most of the stars in the galaxy reside along the galactic plane. You can certainly go 'up' or 'down' from that plane and stars will simply be farther between, and as I stated before there is a LOT in each 'sector' of space, more than any normal 'star empire' could feasibly investigate. But the point stands- the Federation is getting large enough that it is going to run into the issue of other 'star empires' like the Cardassians, Klingons, and Romulans bordering it. The fact they CAN travel at FTL speeds and conduct their mission guarantees it.

There will always be a frontier, but we will eventually reach a point where the frontier isn't everywhere.
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I agree with the conclusion but I do NOT think that the game as played supports the idea of there being no room for things to get entangled 'above' and 'below' each other. Most Star Trek ships only travel at a few hundred times the speed of light- warships cruise faster and can sprint quite a lot faster, but that's about it.

I am actively in favor of ignoring the "3D" issue for purposes of gameplay. For gameplay, we need something manageable and fun. But I don't think you should dismiss Leila's points.

Iron Wolf said:
The major problem with show canon vs our map vs all other fanon maps is that the Cardassians explicitly have a Federation, Klingon, and either have a Romulan border or one close to their space. That suggests they're either in the middle of all three powers, or somehow above/below them either entirely or in some areas. The latter option is kinda hard to chart in any conventional 2D sense.

EDIT: I bring this up ALL THE TIME because I remember watching DS9 and being like "??? but how" when they said the Klingons had crossed their border with the Cardassians due to all the maps putting them like, completely opposite each other.
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Agreed. Although our map at least supports the idea that the Klingons and Cardassians could expand toward each other by wrapping around our space.

What'd be hard is for the Romulans and Cardassians to interact, but then, the Romulans are goddamn badass stealth masters, so the question "how the hell did a Romulan fleet get over to link up with the Cardies?" can simply be answered "Uh, Romulans? We've been standing next to them for like four hours."

ClawClawBite said:
Caitian police R&d is a level 2 tech team, the relevant personal protection tech is new phasors, a 40 pt item (anti-abortion suits don't do anything here). That is 8 to 10 years out. Not likely to have a short term effects vs. Orion.
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Firstly, if the conflict goes on longer than we think, OR dissolves into ongoing guerilla warfare on even a low level, the personal protection tech will pay off eventually.

Secondly, the point is that narratively it makes sense for protracted ground combat to result in research into better armor, weapons, and other equipment to help keep people alive during ground combat. Even if the research projects inspired by the Caitian Frontier Police's R&D teams don't pay off for a decade, that doesn't mean that the CFP won't engage in such R&D.
 
[X] Continuity
[X] [PERSONAL] Caitian Frontier Police R&D: 2310s Equipment
[X] [DOCTRINE] Admiral Lathriss: Fleet in Being
[X][BOOST] Vulcan Science Academy

Fleet in being offers improved event rates, critical boosts to starbases and better positions our garrisons to respond to the start of an actual war.
 
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Not to mention, in the past, we've gotten bonuses to research from taking actions that give practical experience in that field. Fighting Romulan ships gave us better anti-Romulan tactics, for example. So engaging in a lengthy ground war may give bonuses to personal tech if we do the research.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Starfleet isn't a defensive force, any more than it's an offensive force. It's an exploratory force.
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Starfleet is a defensive force, we are explicitly charged with defending the Federation.

Also Foward Defense isn't about exploration (it actually lowers our net event rate) it is about positioning more force as close to the borders as possible. While Fleet in Being is about positioning more force primarily in core territory.

Forward Defense is also the more aggressive option diplomatically, as it positions large forces on the border where they are ready to raid/attack at short notice. Fleet in Being makes positioning fleets for external action much more obvious as ships need to move out to the border from interior areas. This has diplomatic advantages as it reasurres the more suspicious/paranoid polities as they will be able to see potentially hostile acts coming.
 
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