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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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lbmaian said:
I'm kinda bothered by the whole rat race concept. Not the mechanic, but just the obsession with promotion to a higher different position, even if you're already in the most effective position you'd think you be in. I get that expertise should be spread around, but that shouldn't require promotion to do that. I'm only speaking from my experience in the software industry - it could just be a different philosophy in the military, but the core concept of sticking at expertise that you are best at and branching out being voluntary should still be valid. If someone wants to remain tactical officer or whatever, and they're really good at that job, then why not let them? Same thing applies to any job, really.
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The issue is more that if you're bad at your job, up or out is the most likely way to get rid of you.
 
[X][RA] Rear Admiral Nyota Uhura
[X][FLT] Commodore Michel Thuir
[X][GND] Commodore T'Lorel

We all know that Blue Kirk needs to be overseeing the Excelsior refit during this year, just like Original Kirk oversaw the Constitution Refit when he got promoted. It's about time for one anyway. @OneirosTheWriter, make it so!
 
Nix said:
Instead it seems you continue to demolish the the argument others made that Uhura needs someone with high rule abidance to compensate for potential problems.
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You know I was out but the wording here makes me want to jump right back in. ;)

My arguments against that were that that doesn't really make sense in the first place, and that even if it did it wouldn't really apply to these people in particular because this three point scale doesn't characterize them all that well.
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Your three point scale argument doesn't really work as well as the "hey guys, these are all Starfleet officers" argument. Which really means on your scale Nash is probably a seven and say, the leader of Reconnoitre Bloc is a 2.

I think Eaton would work well with Uhura, but not because she is highly rule-abiding. I also think Thuir would do slightly better in the role due to meshing slightly better with Uhura and T'Lorel and being slightly more flexible. I think Eaton and Thuir are actually pretty similar and have very similar attributes, just in somewhat different measure.
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Eaton is better with higher nerve, and also has high rule-abidingness which for some reason you seem to view as a drawback. Apparently having a diversity of approaches among the leadership is a bad thing?
 
My argument is, essentially, that Uhura's low regard for rules as such becomes an asset when tempered by her vast experience. Especially since she's spent a significant fraction of her career shoreside and knows bureaucracy as well as the principles of command. She understands that any set of fixed procedures has limits, she's not afraid to ignore rules to do what's right, even at the risk of her career... But she knows why the rules are in place, and knows how to bend them without breaking them when reasonably possible.

This contrasts with Nash, who is something like 25-30 years younger and lacks that extra layer of wisdom. I think really [Nash] does need more experience as a shoreside commanding officer, if we're hoping to groom her for top-level command which I for one would love to see her take on some day.* Pursuant to that, I'd actually love to see the interaction between Nash and Uhura, and it's kind of a pity that this won't be happening during the Syndicate crisis.

The thing is, having people who will carefully try to follow both standing Starfleet rules and Uhura's own guidelines for dealing with the situation is probably a good thing. Compared to coupling her with less experienced rulebreakers. People who might interpret Uhura's flexibility as giving them enough leeway that they take it and do something stupid with it.
__________________

*Getting her bumped up to admiral rank is arguably the best way to ensure we actually DO see her around regularly and have plenty of excuse for omake-ing her. :)
 
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[X][RA] Rear Admiral Nyota Uhura
[X][FLT] Commodore Victoria Eaton
[X][GND] Commodore T'Lorel
 
Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 753 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.4

Task: FLT

[x][FLT] Commodore Michel Thuir
No. of Votes: 18
UbeOne
Artemis1992
ClawClawBite
drake_azathoth
Finagle007
Gear
Japanime
JesseJ
Mr Tebbs
Muer'ci
NHO
Nix
PauliExklusor
pheonix89
Random Member
Steven Kodaly
SynchronizedWritersBlock
Void Stalker

[x][FLT] Commodore Victoria Eaton
No. of Votes: 17
Ato
aeqnai
anon_user
Briefvoice
Cornuthaum
Derek58
Erandil
Gingganz
Iron Wolf
Katsuragi
lbmaian
Leila Hann
Muramasa
Nervos Belli
Simon_Jester
Theunderbolt
tryrar


Task: GND

[x][GND] Commodore T'Lorel
No. of Votes: 32
UbeOne
aeqnai
anon_user
Artemis1992
Briefvoice
ClawClawBite
Cornuthaum
Derek58
drake_azathoth
Erandil
Finagle007
Gear
Gingganz
Iron Wolf
Japanime
JesseJ
lbmaian
Leila Hann
Mr Tebbs
Muer'ci
Muramasa
NHO
Nix
PauliExklusor
pheonix89
Random Member
Simon_Jester
Steven Kodaly
SynchronizedWritersBlock
Theunderbolt
tryrar
Void Stalker

[x][GND] Commodore Nash ka'Sharren
No. of Votes: 2
Ato
Katsuragi

[X][GND] Commodore Rachel Ainsworth
No. of Votes: 1
Nervos Belli


Task: RA

[x][RA] Rear Admiral Nyota Uhura
No. of Votes: 30
UbeOne
aeqnai
anon_user
Artemis1992
Briefvoice
ClawClawBite
Derek58
drake_azathoth
Finagle007
Gear
Gingganz
Iron Wolf
Japanime
Katsuragi
lbmaian
Leila Hann
Mr Tebbs
Muramasa
Nervos Belli
NHO
Nix
PauliExklusor
pheonix89
Random Member
Simon_Jester
Steven Kodaly
SynchronizedWritersBlock
Theunderbolt
tryrar
Void Stalker

[X][RA] Rear Admiral Shey ch'Tharvasse
No. of Votes: 4
Erandil
Cornuthaum
JesseJ
Muer'ci

[x][RA] Rear Admiral Patricia Chen
No. of Votes: 1
Ato

Total No. of Voters: 35

Task Force Commander is very close. Force Director and Ground Commander...are not :p
 
Iron Wolf said:
Eaton is better with higher nerve, and also has high rule-abidingness which for some reason you seem to view as a drawback. Apparently having a diversity of approaches among the leadership is a bad thing?
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It's an advantage in many situations and for all sorts of tasks with established parameters and well thought out rules. Anyone installing a warp core, transferring antimatter, responsible for food safety etc had better be highly rule abiding. It's also generally advantageous in otherwise less skilled/talented people. For dealing with an unpredictable criminal syndicate that will itself take advantage of every predictability on our side they can find and for which no suitable protocols are likely to exist and in the specific case of the highly skilled people we are considering putting in charge (Uhura, Eaton/Thuir and T'Lorel) and who all have the political and diplomatic skill to successfully navigate and/or avoid political backlash, yes, I see high rule abidance as a bit of a drawback. I don't see high nerve as universially better than medium either (low nerve is clearly bad though), and also consider the three I'm voting for easily sufficiently diverse in approaches, and certainly not less diverse than they would be after replacing Thuir with Eaton, not just because they would all three be women (among other things they would all three be high nerve which could cause them to stick with something that doesn't work for too long).

Another argument for Thuir is that he has experience commanding a taskforce including a Constellation and two escorts. Eaton's sensor expertise and his common sense and skill in helping ships in distress seem about equally applicable.
 
[X][GND] Commodore T'Lorel
[X][RA] Rear Admiral Patricia Chen
[X][FLT] Commodore Michel Thuir
 
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lbmaian said:
I'm kinda bothered by the whole rat race concept. Not the mechanic, but just the obsession with promotion to a higher different position, even if you're already in the most effective position you'd think you be in. I get that expertise should be spread around, but that shouldn't require promotion to do that. I'm only speaking from my experience in the software industry - it could just be a different philosophy in the military, but the core concept of sticking at expertise that you are best at and branching out being voluntary should still be valid. If someone wants to remain tactical officer or whatever, and they're really good at that job, then why not let them? Same thing applies to any job, really.
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This actually seems to be Starfleet's philosophy in Canon.


[X][RA] Rear Admiral Nyota Uhura
[X][FLT] Commodore Victoria Eaton
[X][GND] Commodore T'Lorel
 
Simon_Jester said:
That's reaching a bit far. "Nerve" doesn't mean "automatic persistence all the time no matter what." It refers to resilience in the face of adversity. It is never a good thing to "lose your nerve," and "nerves of steel" are always considered a good thing.
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Actually, no. It's not like that at all. See:

OneirosTheWriter said:
[Rule Abiding = Low means they are more likely to try unconventional things, more likely to cause you political grief, High means they will play things straight and narrow]
[Aggression = High means more likely to go on the attack, less likely to sit back on their heels, Low means more likely to play a defensive game]
[Nerve = High means they will hold their course while taking losses, low nerve means losses will be more likely to make them regroup]
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Nowhere does it says that they will be better able to see whether their course of action is the right one, just whether they'll stick to their plans or not. By the same token, high Rule Abiding or Aggression aren't necessarily better than low, whereas with Diplomacy and Politics it is unambiguously better to be high than low. I believe that the perfect candidate would be something like:

[ ][XXX] Commodore Penelope Perfect
Current Posting: Nothing important. At all.
Rule-Abiding: Medium
Aggression: Medium
Nerve: Medium
Diplomacy: High
Politics: High
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[X][RA] Rear Admiral Nyota Uhura
Two picks have Politics and Diplomacy at Medium and High, the other two are at Low and Medium, so it's between her and ch'Tharvasse. Patricia would be great if not for her Diplomacy, but for an overall commander, that's a non-starter.

[X][FLT] Commodore Michel Thuir
Near perfect, too bad he's only a Commodore. Victoria looks good, but High Aggression and Nerve make her more likely to be very aggressive and stick to her guns. It could only be ore dangerous if she, like ka'Sharren, had Low Rule-Abiding...

[X][GND] Commodore T'Lorel
Also near perfect, but Rachel could also be a reasonable pick.
 
AKuz said:
This actually seems to be Starfleet's philosophy in Canon.
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Honestly yes, although I think it is tempered by the overall sense that the fleet needs talent. They'll let you dodge promotions for a while, and they won't hold it against you, but there are limits to their patience.

NullVoid said:
Actually, no. It's not like that at all. See:

Nowhere does it says that they will be better able to see whether their course of action is the right one, just whether they'll stick to their plans or not. By the same token, high Rule Abiding or Aggression aren't necessarily better than low, whereas with Diplomacy and Politics it is unambiguously better to be high than low. I believe that the perfect candidate would be something like:
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Thing is, we're up against a very tough, capable, entrenched opponent. ALL courses of action are likely to result in losses. Moreover, we're going to be inventing a lot of our tactics on the fly, and there are many, many ways to do it wrong.

For a low-Nerve commander, that's a bad combination. They'll be suffering a constant temptation to change plans because of the losses they're taking. Sure, sometimes their changed plan will be better than the old one. But there are a lot of bad plans for every correct one, and there are a lot more ways to tweak a good plan to make it worse than to make it better. A commander who feels the urge to change their plans all the time in response to the unrelenting pressure of the enemy is at a serious disadvantage.

...

Napoleon once remarked, when discussing the nature of courage:

"As to moral courage, I have very rarely met with the two o'clock in the morning courage. I mean, unprepared courage, that which is necessary on an unexpected occasion, and which, in spite of the most unforeseen events, leaves full freedom of judgment and decision."

Inspired by this, perhaps, the historian Foote remarked on Ulysses S. Grant, most successful commander of the Union Army during the American Civil War:

"Grant the general had many qualities but he had a thing that's very necessary for a great general. He had what they call "four o'clock in the morning courage." You could wake him up at four o'clock in the morning and tell him they had just turned his right flank and he would be as cool as a cucumber. Grant, after that first night in the Wilderness, went to his tent, broke down, and cried very hard. Some of the staff members said they'd never seen a man so unstrung. Well, he didn't cry until the battle was over, and he wasn't crying when it began again the next day. It just shows you the tension that he lived with without letting it affect him... Grant, he's wonderful."

...

This is important to remember. The fight against the Syndicate is going to be difficult and fast-paced. The senior officers will be under constant pressure from all sides, often including nasty surprises. The enemy can attack without warning, at any time, in any of a hundred different ways. People they know will die. They may experience terrorist attacks against their own person.

The ability to experience tremendous tension, without letting it stop them from functioning, is critical to a commanding officer. The ability to exhibit that unplanned, unexpected courage in the face of surprises and setbacks is vital. Without it, a commander will always struggle to make correct decisions and remain steadfast in the face of the enemy. The risk of them suffering disaster as a consequence of some seemingly basic or trivial mistake is greatly increased. For this reason, sheer nerve is an incredibly valuable military virtue.

Victoria Eaton has "two o'clock in the morning" courage, we know from when alien mind-control wraiths tried to hijack her ship. So does T'Lorel, most of us agree. And we certainly know, from canon, that Nyota Uhura has "two o'clock in the morning" courage. We've known that from the moment she first said "Sorry, neither!"

That's why I voted for all three. Thuir's no slouch either, mind you. I won't feel worried if he wins. But I think Nerve is going to be one of the critical stats on which this campaign will succeed or fail. Low and high Rule-Abiding may both have different paths to victory; low and high Aggression may have different paths to victory. But almost every realistic road to victory will be smoother when trod by someone who has Nerve.
 
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Omake - Not Touching Things 101 - AKuz
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    • Based on a paragraph from this log

    A/N said:
    This is entirely based on me reading that log and flashing back to this: piece of my childhood. Counts as CanCon I suppose
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    NOT TOUCHING THINGS 101



    USS Enterprise NCC-1701-B, Stardate 23810.5

    Nash Ka'Sharren, Captain of the USS Enterprise, watches security personnel find their assigned seating. It's a milling mass of officers and enlisted in Starfleet red, set against the grey and white of the Enterprise deck.

    The Andorian woman glances over to her side, towards an all purpose terminal, and getting a quick nod and tight smile from her tactical officer, Lt-Commander Jennifer Zhang. Nodding back, Ka'Sharren then turns to her other side, where she sees the Security Chief set down a couple silver boxes. Arthur Acheson gives her another quick nod and settles into a parade rest, waiting.

    As the time reaches sixteen hundred hours Zhang starts to dim the lights and the few Security personnel not already sitting rush to find assigned spots.

    "Thank You" Nash Ka'Sharren clears her throat, "And welcome to 'Not Touching Things 101: Why You Need A Little Space.'" She uncrosses her arms. "Before we begin, I would like to remind you that Doctor Asurva has requested that well wishers for Ensign Whelan leave a message with his data pad account or other social media of choice. While it does hearten her to see that the Ensign has so many comrades pulling for his recovery she would like to remind us that his chances go up if sickbay has less tripping hazards"

    There is a mild chuckling and generalized murmuring of agreement from the assembled and the Captain continues on, "That being said, preventing such things from happening in the first place is important," she frowns at the crew in mild disappointment, "Hopefully this was just a mild error on the part of one person, but Lieutenant Acheson brought to my attention a little workshop framework that he's brought over from Challorn and Captain Thuir."

    Ka'Sharren makes a quick nod at Zhang and the wall behind her turns into a screen with the words "Not Touching Things 101"

    -------------

    "Don't you put it in your mouth" sings a Andorian chan, as an zhen colleague strums on a guitar, grinning ear to ear, "Don't stuff it in your face," he shakes his head exaggeratedly, "Though it might look good to eat..."

    Jennifer Zhang tries heroically to keep a straight face, eyeing a clearly amused Captain Ka'Sharren from the side, wondering about the wisdom of this particular team building exercise.

    "Though it might look good to taste," the Andorian duo continue their musical service announcement, "You could get sick (ick!) real quick!"

    Ka'Sharren leans over towards Zhang nodding at the duo, "I'm not going to lie, ch'Vellas and zh'Netzer have probably won this round. I'm certainly never going to put it in my mouth if I don't know what it is!" Nash grins, chuckling slightly, as the Tactical officer slowly turns red.

    As the duo winds towards the finish a Caitian Chief steps up next to them, "Remember Ladies and Gentlemen, don't put things in your mouth if you don't know what they are, always ask a Doctor or a Science officer if it's okay first."

    A human petty officer mutters in annoyance to his own partner as the recreation room erupts into laughter and applause, "How are we supposed to follow that act?"

    --------------------

    Acheson points to a cute fuzzy ball on the screen, "Okay. This is a Tribble. Small, cute, harmless, not at all poisonous or carnivorous, little waste, not a threat right?" the next slide shows an angry Klingon, "Wrong! Starfleet has deemed Tribbles to be restricted item on a starship. Highly aggressive reproduction rates along with high caloric intake can rapidly eat a crew out of food. And even if you find more food you still have to deal with thousands of Tribbles." he shrugs, "This is why you don't bring even the most innocuous of animals aboard a ship without asking the senior department heads for permission first. There might be unknown consequences that we can't easily see alone."

    Acheson pauses for a moment. "That and the Klingons will just shoot up your vessel if they think you are carrying Tribbles."

    ------------------

    "So now the pheromones have worn off and I'm in the lowest levels of Alukk." Kas'Sharren frowns at the sitting Starfleet crew, "No shoes, no doge (Or any other kind of currency for that matter), no communicator, universal translator fried. Rain getting everywhere, falling in thick grey sheets as I clutch my Starfleet ID -- wearing only half my uniform!" the Captain continues ranting, "Completely separated from my friends, and I have no idea where the nearest consulate or starport is..." she trails off as Zhang coughs and leans in to whisper something in her ear, "Right, yes, sorry." she flashes an embarrassed smile, "Uhm. Air filtration equipment" she holds up a standard issue face mask, "Can I get a volunteer?"

    --------------------

    "And that concludes "Not Touching Things 101" Nash gently claps her hands together, "I have to do this again, I'm not letting it be fun" she wags her finger at her crew, "No skits, no team exercises, no stories. I'm just having the computer to read out Captain Thuir's notes for three straight hours, without the dinner break, get it?" she gestures for Commander Zhang to raise the lights, "Just stay safe out there, okay?"
     
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    • Magnificent. SImply magnificent.

    Commodore Leslie: "As founder and president of the Fraternal and/or Sororal Red Shirt Protective Society, I hereby award Captain Nash ka'Sharren of the USS Enterprise the Matthews-Rayburn Memorial Safety Award for 2310's Captain of the Year!"
     
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