Remove ads

To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

Linked contents
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
Reader mode
Simon_Jester said:
Okay, well don't expect me to go along with that then. Go find an empire quest to play.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I wouldn't vote to start a war or something like that. I'm just thinking, OOC of course, that the occasional crisis keeps the quest interesting. That can be a conventional war, or something like the Biophage-issue, or the Borg coming.
Makes things certainly easier if the enemy is something we definitly and absolutly have to stop.
 
Artemis1992 said:
I wouldn't vote to start a war or something like that. I'm just thinking, OOC of course, that the occasional crisis keeps the quest interesting. That can be a conventional war, or something like the Biophage-issue, or the Borg coming.
Makes things certainly easier if the enemy is something we definitly and absolutly have to stop.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Unambiguous good versus evil is fun, but the story will get monotonous if it's just about us toppling one ogre after the next. Star Trek is usually at its best when its doing intrigue and politics. Things like the biophage and borg are palate cleansers.
 
Artemis1992 said:
I wouldn't vote to start a war or something like that. I'm just thinking, OOC of course, that the occasional crisis keeps the quest interesting. That can be a conventional war, or something like the Biophage-issue, or the Borg coming.
Makes things certainly easier if the enemy is something we definitly and absolutly have to stop.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
See, there you go again with the "Easier if the enemy is something we have to stop at all costs." I've linked to this article before, but maybe not in this thread:

Locus Online Perspectives » Cory Doctorow: Cold Equations and Moral Hazard

Basically, there's this recurring idea in speculative fiction (and outside it, but that's a problem for another day) that is very disturbingly in love with the idea of existential threats. Because in the face of a threat where everyone could die, people feel justified in taking on the mantle of Hard Men, Making Hard Decisions. Of breaking out the violence they've imagined. Of brutally silencing anyone who questions their decisions. Of picking cheap, quick-and-dirty options that they can convince themselves are "stern" and "decisive."

Speculative fiction lets people like that indulge their inner tyrant, without the downside of, you know, actually facing an existential threat.

And that's the attitude that says "Oh, yay, a terrifying monster in the face of which any brutality or evil seems like the lesser evil by comparison! Now I can fantasize about doing whatever horrible thing I want!" And then, to borrow Doctorow's words... "but if a crisis of your own making isn't the time to lay blame, then the optimal strategy is to ensure the crisis never ends."

I want no part of that.
 
Last edited:
Simon_Jester said:
See, there you go again with the "Easier if the enemy is something we have to stop at all costs." I've linked to this article before, but maybe not in this thread:

Locus Online Perspectives » Cory Doctorow: Cold Equations and Moral Hazard

Basically, there's this recurring idea in speculative fiction (and outside it, but that's a problem for another day) that is very disturbingly in love with the idea of existential threats. Because in the face of a threat where everyone could die, people feel justified in taking on the mantle of Hard Men, Making Hard Decisions. Of breaking out the violence they've imagined. Of brutally silencing anyone who questions their decisions. Of picking cheap, quick-and-dirty options that they can convince themselves are "stern" and "decisive."

Speculative fiction lets people like that indulge their inner tyrant, without the downside of, you know, actually facing an existential threat.

And that's the attitude that says "Oh, yay, a terrifying monster in the face of which any brutality or evil seems like the lesser evil by comparison! Now I can fantasize about doing whatever horrible thing I want!"

I want no part of that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sorry, that's not quite what I meant.
I mean that the occasional large-scale crisis is fun to read about.
I have meant with my last comment that it is far easier to get that kind kind of crisis against an enemy that can't be negotiated with. That is the "easier" aspect.

I don't mean that the actual decision making during the crisis will be easier than it would be in a "regular" war. Sorry to cause a missunderstanding.
 
@OneirosTheWriter, I've finished up an audit of the 2310 EOY tallies.

Previous 2309 EOY audit (but was ignored :()

Spreadsheet: ToBoldlyGo Audit (scroll down to 2310 tally)

I'm assuming that the 2309 EOY tallies are final and that any errors leading up to it are grandfathered in.

I'm also assuming that the pp income is rounded to the nearest integer (i.e. not floor or ceiling) after applying the Syndicate cost penalty (and resilience, but we have 0 resilience until next year). Please correct me if this assumption is wrong.

List of outstanding discrepancies in the 2310 EOY tallies (highlighted yellow in the "main" and "income" sheets):
  1. See Nix's detailed BR/SR income discrepancies
  2. As noted in the my 2309 audit, there's a mysterious 0.05 extra EC tech crew income (highlighted orange in the "income" sheet) - I'm correcting for this year (and onwards) by removing it.
  3. The -2O -2E -2T from the EC recruitment drive is not being applied to standard crew.
  4. The affiliate common tech-based bonus of 0.1O 0.1E 0.1T from either the Seyek (new 2309 affiliate) or Qloathi (new 2310 affiliate) is being ignored. Factoring in the Caitians moving from affiliate to full member, we should now have 9 affiliates.
  5. The 10pp from the Ghosts & Whispers epilogue is missing. We actually should have had 182pp in the snakepit :(
  6. Hikaru Sulu's extra 2pp income from an additional FYM with the relaunch of USS Courageous (for a total of 2*5=10pp income) is missing.
  7. New Vulcan sector commodore Revak's 4pp income is missing.
  8. The above two missing pp income sum up to 6pp, which after applying -24% results in a post-Syndicate-cost increase of 5pp income.
  9. The Yel'urulausu research "colony" is only providing 5+1rp when it should be providing 5+2rp (this was also the case in 2309).

List of minor ongoing discrepancies:
  1. The Career Casualties tally for EC enlisted was added incorrectly in 2304, and so should be 7 rather than 6.
  2. The Career Casualties tally for standard crew is including the Biophage casualties of the Constellation that was lent to us from the Andorian Guard, so I'm including an extra Constellation in Career Casualties. edit: turns out that Constellation was only disabled and wasn't lost

List of 2309 discrepancies that were already fixed in the 2310 EOY tallies (yay):
  1. It looks like we got the 0.45E back from the 2309 EOY 40.5=>40.05 typo (highlighted orange in the "main" sheet).
  2. The crewing of the Centaur-A that started building in 2308.Q2 at Utopia Planitia 1mt Berth 2 was done belatedly in the 2310 Shipyard Ops.
  3. The Academy steering meeting recruitment policies (standard: 0.5E=>0.5T, EC: 0.25T=>0.25O) is now being applied (but wasn't retroactively applied for 2309).
  4. The recrewing of damaged USS Courageous was apparently delayed until its relaunch in 2310 Q1, as noted in the difference between 2310.Q1 Shipyard Ops and 2310.Q1 Shipyard Ops Results under "Current Personnel Pool" for "Explorer Corps", a loss of 2O 3E 4T. Also, the Starting Personnel Pool in the 2310 EOY already includes the crew loss. (Note: This is either new behavior or a fixed discrepancy, because the USS Kumari Biophage casualties were replenished from reserve crew in 2304 despite effectively relaunching in 2305 Q1. I'm assuming it's new behavior to give benefit of the doubt.)

Altogether, here's the corrected 2310 EOY:
End of Year Report Card - 2310

Starting Resources
920 Bulk Resources
405 Special Resources
137 Political Will
202 Research Points

Starting Personnel Pool
Standard Starfleet: 29 Officer, 40.05 Enlisted, 26.6 Techs
Explorer Corps: 2.25 Officer, 4.30 Enlisted, 5.25 Techs

Spent During the Year
Expenditure

460 Bulk Industrial Resources
385 Special Industrial Resources
170 Political Will
192 Research Points

Casualties
Standard: -
Explorer: -

Career Casualties
Standard: 9 Officer, 17 Enlisted, 11 Technician
Explorer: 6 Officer, 7 Enlisted, 6 Technician

2 Constellation (1 lent from member fleets), 1 Centaur, 2 Miranda

Gained During the Year

Political Rewards

+10pp for Successful conclusion of the Ghosts & Whispers crisis

Request new Starbase I [CBZ: Lapycorias] 20pp - ETC 2311.Q4
Request Mining Colony at Gamma Canidae V, 8pp (4 turns, gain +20 br / year) - ETC 2311.Q2
Request Mining Colony at Lapycorias VII, 8pp (4 turns, gain +25 br/year) - ETC 2311.Q2
Request new Starbase I [Sol-Sector: Vega] 20pp - ETC 2311.Q2
Request Refit Program for Miranda class [+1 S,H,L for 20br, 10sr, 1 Year (4 turns)], 6 turns, 35pp (NB: new unit cost for the Miranda will be 60/45) - ETC 2311.Q4


Anti-Slavery Operations
---

Starting Impact/Cost: 27/0
End Impact/Cost: 65/24

USS Enterprise
----

+20sr
+5rp
+15pp

Gain Tagh Pakot Mining Colony option, +10 (15) sr/yr

USS Courageous
----

+5pp
+15rp

+25 relations with Rigel

Gain Colony Option, Lapycorias XII, +20 (25)br/yr

USS Sarek
----

+20sr
+15pp

+25 relations with Risa

USS Miracht
----

+20br
+20pp
+10rp

+25 Relations with Rigel
+25 Relations with Gaeni
Gain Ke'luur Research Colony Option, +5 (7) rp/yr

+1 Impact

USS S'harien
----

+20pp

+25 Relations with Qloath

+5 Impact
+4 Cost

Other Ships
----

USS T'Mir - Spying

USS Avandar - +5rp, +20pp, +15br, +25 relations with Orion
USS Endurance - +30br
USS Excelsior - +5pp, +25 relations with Kadesh
USS Gale - +20sr
USS Cheron - +5pp, +5rp, +25 relations with Indoria

USS Kumari - +10rp, +15pp, +75 relations with Apiata

USS Kearsage - +4 Cost

Ship Movements
Fleet Redistributed Q4

Ships Lost
None

Ships Damaged
None

Ships Scrapped
None

Ships Laid Down
1 Excelsior
2 Consitution-B
1 Centaur-A Refit (USS Zephyr)
1 Oberth

Ships Crewed
1 Excelsior
1 Centaur-A (belatedly)

Ships Commissioned
USS Salnas - Excelsior, NCC-2009
USS Avandar - Excelsior, NCC-2010
USS Blizzard - Centaur-A, NCC-2108

Final Stockpile with Annual Income
920 - 460 + 65 + 635 = 1160 Bulk Resources
405 - 385 + 60 + 445 = 525 Special Resources
137 - 170 + 155 + 59 = 181 Political Will
202 - 192 + 50 + 129 = 189 Research Points

New Personnel Pool with Annual Income
Standard Starfleet:
29 - 9 + 0 + 9.7 = 29.7 Officer
40.05 - 9 + 0.45 + 10.4 = 41.9 Enlisted
26.6 - 9 + 0 + 13.2 = 30.8 Technician

Explorer Corps:
2.25 - 0 + 4 + 2.25 = 8.5 Officer
4.3 - 0 + 4 + 1.95 = 10.25 Enlisted
5.25 - 0 + 4 + 1.95 = 11.2 Technician

As before, besides the number and omission fixes, I've also added a section for "Ships Crewed", and changed "New Personnel Pool" to include annual crew income.
 
Last edited:
Alternate though instead of sending in Paper Connies and the Ares prototype to sacrifice on a shaky alter of peace.
A formal ship duel, something like the Armakian or Dawiar ones, but with a freighter full of parts and some fancy ores as the stake.
Then, if they win, they get a freighter full of parts and some useful ore.
If we win, we make a gift of the stake to our honored opponents.

Then the Federation Diplomatic Service swoops in, and soothes ruffled feathers/fur and we hope for peace in our time.
 
Simon_Jester said:
@lbmaian, just to be clear, there was talk of the upcoming Excelsior being added to the Explorer Corps. Has the crew drawdown for doing that already happened?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I believe that crewing is going to happen in 2311.Q1. There was no EC crewing this year, since the only Excelsior crewing in 2310 was in Q1 and we got the EC recruitment drive in Q2, a quarter too late.
 
nocarename said:
Alternate though instead of sending in Paper Connies and the Ares prototype to sacrifice on a shaky alter of peace.
A formal ship duel, something like the Armakian or Dawiar ones, but with a freighter full of parts and some fancy ores as the stake.
Then, if they win, they get a freighter full of parts and some useful ore.
If we win, we make a gift of the stake to our honored opponents.

Then the Federation Diplomatic Service swoops in, and soothes ruffled feathers/fur and we hope for peace in our time.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This plan is less hilarious, but still magnificent, and more likely to work. Because there is no deception involved.

Also, I get the sense that the Sydraxians are a big, booming, BRIAN BLESSED-type warrior culture. They probably appreciate that kind of gesture of magnaminity.

We just have to make sure the prize is suitably huge and glittering. Stacks of gold-plated latinum! Rooms full of dilithium crystals!

lbmaian said:
I believe that crewing is going to happen in 2311.Q1. There was no EC crewing this year, since the only Excelsior crewing in 2310 was in Q1 and we got the EC recruitment drive in Q2, a quarter too late.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So... although we didn't have enough Explorer Corps personnel to crew an Excelsior in 2310Q4, we will in 2311Q1?
 
Last edited:
Simon_Jester said:
This plan is less hilarious, but still magnificent, and more likely to work.

So... although we didn't have enough Explorer Corps personnel to crew an Excelsior in 2310Q4, we will in 2311Q1?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yup

edit: or rather, there was no Excelsior to crew in 2310Q4. The only Excelsior crewing in 2310 was in Q1.

...and I see a new debate cropped up last page while I was working on this audit - whatever, staying away from it this time :p
 
Last edited:
Simon_Jester said:
This plan is less hilarious, but still magnificent, and more likely to work. Because there is no deception involved.

Also, I get the sense that the Sydraxians are a big, booming, BRIAN BLESSED-type warrior culture. They probably appreciate that kind of gesture of magnaminity.

We just have to make sure the prize is suitably huge and glittering. Stacks of gold-plated latinum! Rooms full of dilithium crystals!

So... although we didn't have enough Explorer Corps personnel to crew an Excelsior in 2310Q4, we will in 2311Q1?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

We didn't crew an Excelsior 2310Q4. We crewed one in 2310Q1, when we didn't have enough EC. We picked up enough EC to crew an Excelsior In 2310Q2, when we did a recruitment drive. That ship will launch in 2311Q1. Also in 2311Q1 we will get to name and crew the next ship, which we do have enough EC for. The next Explorer Corps vessel will launch in 2312.
 
Simon_Jester said:
This plan is less hilarious, but still magnificent, and more likely to work. Because there is no deception involved.

Also, I get the sense that the Sydraxians are a big, booming, BRIAN BLESSED-type warrior culture. They probably appreciate that kind of gesture of magnaminity.

We just have to make sure the prize is suitably huge and glittering. Stacks of gold-plated latinum! Rooms full of dilithium crystals!
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I have nothing against the paper Connie plan, except that it might not work.
The visuals would be much better, for one thing. You could even have a build team sequence where the old Constitution simulators are slotted into the shuttlebay and whole corridors are filled with reinforcing foam and a small selection of special effects squibs.
But lying is a lot of work and tiring to keep up.
It's just easier to be honest almost every time. And most of the times it isn't, lies of omission are almost always the best options there.
 
Nervos Belli said:
We didn't crew an Excelsior 2310Q4. We crewed one in 2310Q1, when we didn't have enough EC. We picked up enough EC to crew an Excelsior In 2310Q2, when we did a recruitment drive. That ship will launch in 2311Q1. Also in 2311Q1 we will get to name and crew the next ship, which we do have enough EC for. The next Explorer Corps vessel will launch in 2312.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
To be clear, my reading of the report card showed very few Explorer Corps crew available. So for clarification, I wanted to check with lbmaian that the reason for this was NOT "we will be unable to launch a new Explorer Corps ship in 2311," but rather "we have already assembled the crew for our sixth Explorer Corps ship, which is why the pool of unattached Explorer Corps personnel is so small."

nocarename said:
I have nothing against the paper Connie plan, except that it might not work.
The visuals would be much better, for one thing. You could even have a build team sequence where the old Constitution simulators are slotted into the shuttlebay and whole corridors are filled with reinforcing foam and a small selection of special effects squibs.
But lying is a lot of work and tiring to keep up.
It's just easier to be honest almost every time. And most of the times it isn't, lies of omission are almost always the best options there.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah. As I pointed out, we'd have to work rather hard to 'fake' the loss of a couple of ships, without also having to fake the deaths of a lot of Starfleet crew.

It's a pity. I LOVE the "paper Connie" plan. If anyone thinks of a way to do it properly they have my support and I'll even help write the story. The problem is setting it up.

Hm... It would help if we claim the ships are being operated on a skeleton crew. That would hardly be unprecedented. We know that with the 'right' control hookups, an otherwise unmodified Constitution-A CAN be operated by like six people from the bridge, because Scotty managed exactly that when the old Enterprise command team hijacked the ship.

Then, we could have a small number of volunteers (say, a few dozen) who are fully "in" on the story, and who really are risking their lives, but with as many precautions as possible to stop them from being explosively decompressed or killed by the Sydraxians.

Hmmm.

WE COULD COMBINE THE PLANS.

Have "iron filings held together by SIF power" Constitution-As go out as our 'challengers,' so that the Sydraxians get the satisfaction of, y'know, actually winning and recovering a huge prize. We could say "first one to shield failure," only for our ships to dramatically fall apart...

Eh, then the problem is that we look incompetent to our own public. :(
 
Last edited:
Simon_Jester said:
Speculative fiction lets people like that indulge their inner tyrant, without the downside of, you know, actually facing an existential threat.

And that's the attitude that says "Oh, yay, a terrifying monster in the face of which any brutality or evil seems like the lesser evil by comparison! Now I can fantasize about doing whatever horrible thing I want!" And then, to borrow Doctorow's words... "but if a crisis of your own making isn't the time to lay blame, then the optimal strategy is to ensure the crisis never ends."

I want no part of that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
...And yet there you run into the issue there that if said threats are not alien and monstrous, but rather realistic, there is the very real likelihood that they will bear unfortunate resemblances to real-world regimes.

There is the obvious talk about the Romulans or Klingons or Cardassians resembling the Chinese, or the Russians, or North Korea, or whatever. And there instead of risking enjoyment of moral compromise, you risk demonizing ordinary political opponents with different motives from their fictional counterparts- because you can only do Khan or the Founders moving behind the scenes so often before THAT appears very contrived.

And even that narrative of morally corrupt manipulators rather than regimes doing evil risks problems- the idealism of the intellectual elite that moral compromises are always avoidable, that politics is an evil with no positive impact on their lives rather than a process with concrete and understandable motives in terms of self-preservation and self-aggrandizement.

Not to say that you aren't entitled to your tastes in fiction, but I think it's fair to say that any kind of narrative fantasy can lead to delusion with regards to the real world.
 
Last edited:
drake_azathoth said:
...And yet there you run into the issue there that if said threats are not alien and monstrous, but rather realistic, there is the very real likelihood that they will bear unfortunate resemblances to real-world regimes.

There is the obvious talk about the Romulans or Klingons or Cardassians resembling the Chinese, or the Russians, or North Korea, or whatever. And there instead of risking enjoyment of moral compromise, you risk demonizing ordinary political opponents with different motives from their fictional counterparts- because you can only do Khan or the Founders moving behind the scenes so often before THAT appears very contrived.

And even that narrative of morally corrupt manipulators rather than regimes doing evil risks problems- the idealism of the intellectual elite that moral compromises are always avoidable, that politics is an evil with no positive impact on their lives rather than a process with concrete and understandable motives in terms of self-preservation and self-aggrandizement.

Not to say that you aren't entitled to your tastes in fiction, but I think it's fair to say that any kind of narrative fantasy can lead to delusion with regards to the real world.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The other option is to write enemies that are sympathetic and have understandable motivations but are still clearly opposed. But actual professional writers have a hard time with that, let alone people doing it for fun.
 
Nervos Belli said:
The other option is to write enemies that are sympathetic and have understandable motivations but are still clearly opposed. But actual professional writers have a hard time with that, let alone people doing it for fun.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Oneiros seems to be managing fairly well. The Dawiar and Sydraxians and Cardassians are all fairly sympathetic when you get right down to it. We may dislike the Cardassian regime,

drake_azathoth said:
...And yet there you run into the issue there that if said threats are not alien and monstrous, but rather realistic, there is the very real likelihood that they will bear unfortunate resemblances to real-world regimes.

There is the obvious talk about the Romulans or Klingons or Cardassians resembling the Chinese, or the Russians, or North Korea, or whatever. And there instead of risking enjoyment of moral compromise, you risk demonizing ordinary political opponents with different motives from their fictional counterparts- because you can only do Khan or the Founders moving behind the scenes so often before THAT appears very contrived.

And even that narrative of morally corrupt manipulators rather than regimes doing evil risks problems- the idealism of the intellectual elite that moral compromises are always avoidable, that politics is an evil with no positive impact on their lives rather than a process with concrete and understandable motives in terms of self-preservation and self-aggrandizement.

Not to say that you aren't entitled to your tastes in fiction, but I think it's fair to say that any kind of narrative fantasy can lead to delusion with regards to the real world.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm actually not talking about "delusion with regards to the real world."

I'm talking specifically about the gleeful indulgence of "and then we shall DO EVIL!" impulses from people who seem to view existential conflict in fiction as an excuse to (pretend to) be horrible. It's a rather dirty form of literary self-gratification.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I'm actually not talking about "delusion with regards to the real world."

I'm talking specifically about the gleeful indulgence of "and then we shall DO EVIL!" impulses from people who seem to view existential conflict in fiction as an excuse to (pretend to) be horrible. It's a rather dirty form of literary self-gratification.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sure. I'm not really disputing your point, there are definitely those who enjoy going full tyrant in making 'hard choices'.

Some people, however, (including myself), find 'Fix fics' and 'White Knighting' that pretends doing good is easy just as distasteful and juvenile a form of self-gratification.

There's nothing more maddening than seeing somebody solve issues like generational poverty and crime in a story with a 'simple solution' and a turn worth of actions in a quest when you deal with those issues in real life. I was pleasantly surprised to see that Oneiros is trying to handle the Syndicate with a certain degree of realism along those lines.

I think, narratively, it's a balance between full grimderp and sugarbowl solutions which trivialize real-world problems. Providing conflict in a story isn't a simple thing because there are moral issues no matter the source of conflict. That is the point which I am driving at, and why I tried to offer a counterpoint to your rationale that faceless enemies, ipso facto, are simple appeals to the masses which enjoy moral relativism.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top