Though one thing I rather like about this quest is how much of what ships do isn't fighting. I mean, yeah, when you do have to fight you better damn well win or your expensive starship turns into a rapidly expanding debris cloud. But turn-to-turn we frequently see ships responding to so many other sorts of problems.

The Federation Council puts restrictions on how militarized we can be, but the structure of the game also does that pretty elegantly by making the other stats very important as well. How many Affiliates are the result of a presumably very successful Presence check on First Contact? Just think of where our relationship with the Apiata would be if the Enterprise hadn't managed to scrape them up to a 100 Relationship during first contact, resulting in us deciding we better push them.
 
Though one thing I rather like about this quest is how much of what ships do isn't fighting. I mean, yeah, when you do have to fight you better damn well win or your expensive starship turns into a rapidly expanding debris cloud. But turn-to-turn we frequently see ships responding to so many other sorts of problems.

The Federation Council puts restrictions on how militarized we can be, but the structure of the game also does that pretty elegantly by making the other stats very important as well. How many Affiliates are the result of a presumably very successful Presence check on First Contact? Just think of where our relationship with the Apiata would be if the Enterprise hadn't managed to scrape them up to a 100 Relationship during first contact, resulting in us deciding we better push them.

Its a rare example of a faithful Trek medium adaptation.
 
Those stats actually ARE in the first post of the ship design thread...

A link to the ship design threat is one of the updates to the first post that I'd find helpful.

See, the problem is, in that case, the research mechanism itself is fundamentally toxic. Because it's this big complicated THING that, under that assumption set, you cannot understand without understanding other big complicated things.

"Fundamentally toxic" resonated with me more than I thought it would.

Thinking on it, I have to say, the whole tech tree has me feeling "when did I leave star trek and start playing HoI?" It feels like a bolt-on that doesn't fit in the universe and is full of arbitrary choices that don't make sense to me. It has completely turned me off the ship design.

Looking at the techs, I also suspect it will cause real power creep problems later on in the quest.

But maybe it is good that it makes me uninterested in ship design - that aspect of the game was getting a bit crazy.

But Oneiros never aknowledged that post

I thought he had and that we are assured of being able to sell off our ConnieBs if we want?

fasquardon
 
Given how awesome the stuff 'T2: 2310s Message Networking' leads to – especially public outreach in Federation Datanet – is there a reason none of the current plans try to grab it? I get that it doesn't improve our shipbuilding directly, but free diplomatic pushes would be rather synergistic with what we've been told is in Xeno-psychology. Together, those two tech groups would significantly help in winning the peace against Cardassia. Similarly, while Colony Datanet isn't as good as Colony Cores, it gives the most similar bonus I've found outside of computing.
I think communications wasn't updated yet when the plans were made, at least I didn't see it and the megapost has been edited since then. That said it probably wouldn't have changed anything. Sure, the techs are good (though not as good as similar Xenopsychology and Computing techs), but Message Security is urgent and the only other team specialized in Communications is Starfleet Science Academy. We can probably move them back to communications next year though.
 
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Ah, I thought that was what you were going for but wasn't sure. Maybe have some tendriling on the eyeball as well?
Nah. Aelin never actually got eaten; he got blown up, as I recall.

[This game is] a rare example of a faithful Trek medium adaptation.
I KNOW RIGHT?

[bounces happily]

A link to the ship design threat is one of the updates to the first post that I'd find helpful.
There's a link actually on the first page, just not the first POST. Putting a list of links in the first post as such may be somewhat redundant with the index and all, but it really helps with making things more accessible and transparent.

"Fundamentally toxic" resonated with me more than I thought it would.

Thinking on it, I have to say, the whole tech tree has me feeling "when did I leave star trek and start playing HoI?" It feels like a bolt-on that doesn't fit in the universe and is full of arbitrary choices that don't make sense to me. It has completely turned me off the ship design.
I don't mind the tech tree and its complexity, as long as its role is to implement decisions that make sense in-story to people that aren't compulsive spreadsheet-crunchers. Like

1) "We want ships to have more survivability and more performance per ton, so we can do more in a hull of X million tons. Let's research better shields and stronger, lighter hulls."

What we don't want is a situation where most of us want to do that, but a few people thinking entirely from a mechanics standpoint get to jump in and go:

2) "Uh yeah, I know you want that, but don't research shields and hulls, research XYZ doctrine then ABC tech then OMGWTFBBQ as a long term goal, and you'll get better results than if you just researched boring dopey old shields and hulls."

Because that then subverts the ability of the rest of us to participate in the game. The jumpers-in may well be factually correct, it honestly doesn't matter for purposes of whether it's any fun to deal with. (1) is fun. (2) is not fun.

So far, the new tech tree is manageable in my opinion- it just looks bad this turn because we had to massively realign our priorities due to how Oneiros revamped it in the past week or so. That caused us to come closer to outcome (2).

We just need to ensure it doesn't stay fundamentally out of control, forcing us to fixate on minutiae decisions that make no intuitive sense.

Looking at the techs, I also suspect it will cause real power creep problems later on in the quest.
We can deal with power creep. I'm not worried about it.

I thought he had and that we are assured of being able to sell off our ConnieBs if we want?
There are people who'd be fools to not buy them, if we sold- but that isn't the same as a guarantee TO buy them.
 
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I'd like to warn people before using that mining colony as an appeasement.

Remember, the Dawiar are an aggressive martial culture. We don't know how much of the current mess is a misunderstanding and how much fully intentional.

Trying to appease a warrior culture will be seen as a weakness and only embolden them.

Instead, use it as a reward for good behaviour. Tit for tat. If the Dawiar reciprocate our diplomatic endeavours, give them the carrot in form of the colony. Else, keep it back.
 
Given how awesome the stuff 'T2: 2310s Message Networking' leads to – especially public outreach in Federation Datanet – is there a reason none of the current plans try to grab it? I get that it doesn't improve our shipbuilding directly, but free diplomatic pushes would be rather synergistic with what we've been told is in Xeno-psychology. Together, those two tech groups would significantly help in winning the peace against Cardassia. Similarly, while Colony Datanet isn't as good as Colony Cores, it gives the most similar bonus I've found outside of computing.

I've got it on my plan on page 413. Federation Broadcast Service.
 
I'd like to warn people before using that mining colony as an appeasement.

Remember, the Dawiar are an aggressive martial culture. We don't know how much of the current mess is a misunderstanding and how much fully intentional.

Trying to appease a warrior culture will be seen as a weakness and only embolden them.

Instead, use it as a reward for good behaviour. Tit for tat. If the Dawiar reciprocate our diplomatic endeavours, give them the carrot in form of the colony. Else, keep it back.
We are not picking negotiation tactics at our level. That is a matter for Federation Diplomats or captains on the scene. They are the ones who need to figure out this culture, and how to create a negotiation process that both sides can accept.

Given that, giving our people as many options and tools as possible going in is what we are doing.
 
Even if we aren't worried about FIGHTING the Romulans, we do still need plenty of information about them. The more we know, the easier it is to maintain positive relations, not just negative ones.

I suspect that IC, the Federation is almost entirely ignorant of even the most basic facts about Romulan culture, given what lengths the Romulans went to in order to make that happen prior to the events of the TOS era. There MAY have been some cultural sharing in the abortive detente that led to the creation of the failed Nimbus III colony, but probably not much.

I'd like to warn people before using that mining colony as an appeasement.

Remember, the Dawiar are an aggressive martial culture. We don't know how much of the current mess is a misunderstanding and how much fully intentional.

Trying to appease a warrior culture will be seen as a weakness and only embolden them.

Instead, use it as a reward for good behaviour. Tit for tat. If the Dawiar reciprocate our diplomatic endeavours, give them the carrot in form of the colony. Else, keep it back.
You are making assumptions about what "a warrior culture" actually means. There are a lot of different "warrior cultures."

In some "warrior cultures," an outsider who gives you something when they don't have to, or acknowledges your possession of something when they don't have to, is a weakling. But these cultures are relatively rare. And they tend to be savage and primitive, because if that influences their internal dealings, then it results in them not being able to trust each other and cooperate among themselves. Societies that adhere to the notion of "what's mine is mine, what's yours is negotiable" on a day to day basis have trouble coordinating large projects that don't break down into internal squabbles.

In other "warrior cultures," conceding something you ultimately don't need can be a gesture of magnanimous strength, or even a subtle way of proclaiming superiority: "I can beat you with one hand tied behind my back, and we both know it, so I can give you things as a signal of my respect for your moxie." They also provide an excuse NOT to fight, which even warriors often go out of their way to look for: "We can't fight that guy, he was our host at that big party! We owe him!"

And it's very easy for a "warrior culture" to resent "carrot and stick" treatment. "Carrot and stick" is how you train an animal, or a child. In relations between mutually respecting adults, while the carrot and stick are both there, one has to be subtle about how they are used. Because independent-minded adults (and independent-minded nations) often have limits on how openly they admit they fear the stick, or covet the carrot. "Warrior cultures" where the desire for gain is seen as ambiguous, and where fear is openly despised, tend to have that problem with redoubled force. Because pride is a major factor in their decision-making process.
 
ADDENDUM:

Put it this way.

The Kazon are a warrior culture. Give a Kazon warlord a gift, and he is very likely to covet that gift, wonder if you have more, and plot treachery to obtain more from you.

The Klingons are a warrior culture. Give a Klingon warlord a gift, and he is very likely to regard the gift with honor, and either reciprocate in kind or at least not immediately go on to try to seize more from you.

Why? Because the Klingons are not stupid. They're a lot smarter than the Kazon. And you will note that the Klingon can go decades or centuries at a time without internal civil wars breaking out. The Kazon... can't.

It's not because the Klingons are any less aggressive, warlike, or brave than the Kazon. It's because the Kazon are stupid, and their leadership is a bunch of treacherous vicious jackasses, on a level that most Klingons are not. Some are- but those are the Klingons who tend to cause the most trouble, because you cannot deal with them. The only way to interact meaningfully with them is to put them down.

And you'll note that the Klingons are a stable society that has evolved linearly from their pre-modern past. Whereas the Kazon occupy their present social state almost entirely because they copied advanced technology from another species who had enslaved them. It is very likely that if it weren't for being enslaved and scattered across a large region, then rebelling and taking over the military assets of their former masters' empire, they wouldn't even be a starfaring culture.

The Klingons have a similar background of stealing warp technology from invaders, but they don't have nearly as many problems with squabbling and nonsense driving their culture back towards barbarism.
 
Even if we aren't worried about FIGHTING the Romulans, we do still need plenty of information about them. The more we know, the easier it is to maintain positive relations, not just negative ones.

I suspect that IC, the Federation is almost entirely ignorant of even the most basic facts about Romulan culture, given what lengths the Romulans went to in order to make that happen prior to the events of the TOS era. There MAY have been some cultural sharing in the abortive detente that led to the creation of the failed Nimbus III colony, but probably not much.

You are making assumptions about what "a warrior culture" actually means. There are a lot of different "warrior cultures."

In some "warrior cultures," an outsider who gives you something when they don't have to, or acknowledges your possession of something when they don't have to, is a weakling. But these cultures are relatively rare. And they tend to be savage and primitive, because if that influences their internal dealings, then it results in them not being able to trust each other and cooperate among themselves. Societies that adhere to the notion of "what's mine is mine, what's yours is negotiable" on a day to day basis have trouble coordinating large projects that don't break down into internal squabbles.

In other "warrior cultures," conceding something you ultimately don't need can be a gesture of magnanimous strength, or even a subtle way of proclaiming superiority: "I can beat you with one hand tied behind my back, and we both know it, so I can give you things as a signal of my respect for your moxie." They also provide an excuse NOT to fight, which even warriors often go out of their way to look for: "We can't fight that guy, he was our host at that big party! We owe him!"

And it's very easy for a "warrior culture" to resent "carrot and stick" treatment. "Carrot and stick" is how you train an animal, or a child. In relations between mutually respecting adults, while the carrot and stick are both there, one has to be subtle about how they are used. Because independent-minded adults (and independent-minded nations) often have limits on how openly they admit they fear the stick, or covet the carrot. "Warrior cultures" where the desire for gain is seen as ambiguous, and where fear is openly despised, tend to have that problem with redoubled force. Because pride is a major factor in their decision-making process.

As far as Romulans go, we should keep pushing whatever we can about them. We are literally friendlier with them than at any point in canon. Even the Dominion War the Khitomer Accord and the RSE were mere co-belligernts and when the war ended they shut right back down again until Shinzon's coup.

Ka'Sharren has enjoyed something that not even Picard did: going to Romulus and not being shot at during peacetime (Handwaving away Belerophone and whatever else as wartime expedient)

Even the Romulans are probably slowly starting to get used to the idea of us being trustworthy. I almost wonder if the RBZ starbase will lower tensions if we pull away more units because they can keep an eye on what we're up to easier and to act as a transit point on our side. I have the feeling that the Romulans will feel better about a semi open heavily controlled border with one route than an open Neutral Zone, or the elimination of it. They need us to show that we take security seriously, especially if we do our best on our side to keep the loonies in.

/Phone Ramble/

Long story short, we might be in for generations of detent that they never saw in Canon.... the only worry is what to do if The Romulans and the Klingons go full serious face war.
 
Honestly [the Kazon] are less stupid than deeply dysfunctional. Pitiable in either case tho
Yeah. Basically what I'm getting at is, we shouldn't assume that a warrior race we just met is dumb like the Kazon, especially when they're being written by someone like Oneiros, who's smarter than the average bear Voyager writer.

It's a risk that if we come across as "paying Dane-geld" by 'giving' them a mining colony that's already on their own borders, they will react by wanting to grab more. Or by being offended that we're trying to give them something that was rightfully theirs anyway, as soon as they got round to discovering it.

But if we have competent diplomats to make the contact, and we learn at least a little about them through their neighbors (like the Qloath)... that really shouldn't be an issue.

As far as Romulans go, we should keep pushing whatever we can about them. We are literally friendlier with them than at any point in canon...

Even the Romulans are probably slowly starting to get used to the idea of us being trustworthy. I almost wonder if the RBZ starbase will lower tensions if we pull away more units because they can keep an eye on what we're up to easier and to act as a transit point on our side.
Sort of like, uh, that one town on the DMZ in Korea? The one that acts as a transit point for authorized travel?

I mean, I'm sure the Romulans can imagine situations where it would be to their advantage to allow travelers into their space, if only to a tightly controlled enclave a la Tokugawa Japan's enclave at Nagasaki (I think it was there). If there was a designated passage from Romulan Nagasaki to Starbase 39 or wherever, they can have that.

I have the feeling that the Romulans will feel better about a semi open heavily controlled border with one route than an open Neutral Zone, or the elimination of it. They need us to show that we take security seriously, especially if we do our best on our side to keep the loonies in.
That... is a problem. Definitely a problem. The Federation is institutionally Not Good at that kind of thing. Then again, it doesn't SEEM like they had too many problems in canon with random idiots wandering off into the Neutral Zone of their own accord.
 
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I've seen it suggested a few times that putting a ship actually meant for something like what Voyager had to deal with - IE a Galaxy/Sovereign - in Voyager's place might end in the de facto destruction of the Kazon as a spacefaring faction because they'd keep attacking the battleship that grossly outtechs them and get utterly curbstomped over and over. Remember that they needed a serious numerical edge to take on Voyager, and canonically something like a Sovereign is simply in a whole different realm of power from an Intrepid, not just 3 or four times stronger.
 
Honestly they are less stupid than deeply dysfunctional. Pitiable in either case tho
Put it this way.
VOY 4x12 'Mortal Coil' said:
Seven of Nine: The Borg encountered a Kazon colony in the Gand Sector, grid 6920.
Neelix: Were they assimilated?
Seven of Nine: Their biological and technological distinctiveness was unremarkable. They were unworthy of assimilation.
Neelix: I didn't realize the Borg were so discriminating.
Seven of Nine: Why assimilate a species that would detract from perfection?
 
Yeah. Basically what I'm getting at is, we shouldn't assume that a warrior race we just met is dumb like the Kazon, especially when they're being written by someone like Oneiros, who's smarter than the average bear Voyager writer.

It's a risk that if we come across as "paying Dane-geld" by 'giving' them a mining colony that's already on their own borders, they will react by either wanting to grab more. Or by being offended that we're trying to give them something that was rightfully their anyway as soon as they got round to discovering it.

But if we have competent diplomats to make the contact, and we learn at least a little about them through their neighbors (like the Qloath)... that really shouldn't be an issue.

Sort of like, uh, that one town on the DMZ in Korea? The one that acts as a transit point for authorized travel?

I mean, I'm sure the Romulans can imagine situations where it would be to their advantage to allow travelers into their space, if only to a tightly controlled enclave a la Tokugawa Japan's enclave at Nagasaki (I think it was there). If there was a designated passage from Romulan Nagasaki to Starbase 39 or wherever, they can have that.

That... is a problem. Definitely a problem. The Federation is institutionally Not Good at that kind of thing. Then again, it doesn't SEEM like they had too many problems in canon with random idiots wandering off into the Neutral Zone of their own accord.
I figure they just post drones broadcasting "If the Romulans kill you it's your own damn fault." I expect the Romulan Fleet would enjoy the practice.

As an aside, I treat TBG less as a total AU of canon and more of more of a "streamlined stylization" of canon. Essentially if someone from 2370 were to go through the window to our Timeline, it'd look identical up until Admiral Kuharangi's appointment.

Even the issues of scale and geography can be handwaved due to the show and movies being just as vague, as long as we are able to keep things straight and relations between areas make general sense it's fine.

Anyway, I see this as an alternate Timeline established by the Selection of Kahurangi over whoever else it was. In the main Timeline Ka'Sharren probably stayed on Lion for a decade or something because Harriman and then Dre mora Sulu commanded Enterprise. The Biophage exist in the Ice on Ulith III and forgotten Tal Shiar records, as Kahurangi's re-assignments didn't shake up postings to lead to the right scientist to dig in the right block of ice and unleash the right biohorror.

Simple ripples and butterfly wings.

If a Canon character or ship were to fall into the Kahurangi Timeline they'd essentially go "Oh. That all makes sense"

One of the things that I really like about this quest is that it all makes sense from a Star Trek perspective. It "feels" right. Most of the time this sort of thing is someone try to "fix" Trek by going "Oh why aren't they all Cyborg gods" or mil sci-fi wank or whatever their personal bug bear is (MINE is more lesbians > : 3 btw). I like how much this quest clearly loves Trek and the Spirit of Trek.
 
I figure they just post drones broadcasting "If the Romulans kill you it's your own damn fault." I expect the Romulan Fleet would enjoy the practice.

As an aside, I treat TBG less as a total AU of canon and more of more of a "streamlined stylization" of canon. Essentially if someone from 2370 were to go through the window to our Timeline, it'd look identical up until Admiral Kuharangi's appointment.

Even the issues of scale and geography can be handwaved due to the show and movies being just as vague, as long as we are able to keep things straight and relations between areas make general sense it's fine.

Anyway, I see this as an alternate Timeline established by the Selection of Kahurangi over whoever else it was. In the main Timeline Ka'Sharren probably stayed on Lion for a decade or something because Harriman and then Dre mora Sulu commanded Enterprise. The Biophage exist in the Ice on Ulith III and forgotten Tal Shiar records, as Kahurangi's re-assignments didn't shake up postings to lead to the right scientist to dig in the right block of ice and unleash the right biohorror.

Simple ripples and butterfly wings.

If a Canon character or ship were to fall into the Kahurangi Timeline they'd essentially go "Oh. That all makes sense"

One of the things that I really like about this quest is that it all makes sense from a Star Trek perspective. It "feels" right. Most of the time this sort of thing is someone try to "fix" Trek by going "Oh why aren't they all Cyborg gods" or mil sci-fi wank or whatever their personal bug bear is (MINE is more lesbians > : 3 btw). I like how much this quest clearly loves Trek and the Spirit of Trek.

I like the restrictions of being the Federation.

"So, let's build pocket Defiants!"

"Militarization points."
 
Hm. I don't know how well the Borg would handle the biophage. They could sterilize and destroy it easily enough... but they have horrible problems tending to try to poke dangerous things and assimilate them (e.g. Species 8472).

Then again, maybe the Borg DID assimilate the biophage, successfully dismantled a sample, and they use something based on it for their assimilation nanites and self-repair technology... :o
 
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