Thors_Alumni
Proud member of Thors Class VII from Liberl
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quick question. why are people voting for the Amarkia option? They are far behind the lines and not relevant AFAIK.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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There's a reason why HoH is clearing all those tags. Just going to coup is a sure way to cause problems and bloody resistance even without Federation involvement and hard evidence of foul play in Tauni. Not to mention they won't necessarily have a reason to think we're building anti-mind-control tech - they don't know what exactly we got from the station.
For one, even if they were to get all those nations, they wouldn't become too powerful to deal with.
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
We can release proof of the mind control to them and with the Singer revelation, alongside with ways to jam it or something for example.
Again, HoH is build on mind control. Take that away and Singers have problems, it might even collapse.
Where did you get that "only the Tauni and the Federation are likely to believe" from? We are downloading evidence. Not mention revealing the mind control thing would probably give it good deal credit even if it was just an unproveable accusation by us.
Revealing the Nazi Concentration camps did not hurt their relations with just Jews (and homosexuals, etc.).
With the revelation of mind control and what the implants look like, and suddenly lots of important people in every disputed nation being found with them... how could that possibly not kill HoHs diplomacy? Unless they find a way to claim that that isnt their tech, which would be completely laughable with how their own citizens all have the things.
No, I am saying that the option is cheaper, and mostly about countering HoHs Intrigue. Us pointing to that cybernetic operation and proving proofs of what at least some of those implants do would proof that HoH is mindcontrolling the leaders of Felis.
Which should be comparable, if not worse, to the OSA scandal.
However, this is not the only hook that they have in Felis society, and not all of them are from mind controlled people even (damn superhackers), so while their relations would be dead,there would still be significant infiltration.
No, but this plan maximizes the chances of it being possible for us, and quickly is relative. Even if it takes a year thats still much better then five.
Those options are cheaper individually and kill HoHs diplo even more, alongside with killing their intrigue in those places. But I believe that plan Good End hurts their diplomacy and intrigue enough, across both the UFP and all the minor powers, along with providing some other, extremely valuable options.
If we have the theory, and the implants (in the Starfleet commanders son for example), find the those implants in people who very much did not consent to them and/or knew about this ability of theirs, along with evidence of it being used extensively against the Tauni for example, I do not believe that people wouldn't believe us on this. That would be flat out stupid of them.
Romulans probably have exactly that much.
And yes, it would. Just slower and much less so, and without the other extremely valuable possibilities that this option opens.
Our biggest fear is not HoH sabotaging the Felis, it is convincing them to join the HoH. With being known for mind control, Intrigue alone would be hard pressed to accomplish this.
HoH can not conquer or coup nations, not blatantly. Their own citizens would be strongly against that.
They have to convince the nations public for it to join.
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My answer is:
Because they're so far behind the lines that the Harmony penetration is probably small-scale and limited to specific people. We'll have better control over our own efforts to round up their network, and the Harmony won't be as likely/tempted to do something like deploy a giant carrier battlegroup to retrieve the computer their local Singer is inhabiting, assuming there IS a local Singer.
Basically, it's a great place for us to testbed anti-Singer protocols and examine exactly what the Harmony has done to a group deep within our space, without the Harmony being easily able to learn what's happening or intervene to prevent us from learning it.
Pinching off 'salients' of enemy territory embedded deep into your own territory is often a good way to weaken them and get experience fighting them.
Revealing evidence of Harmony operations on several worlds will also reveal the mind control if not prevent it. And it will have the great benefit of preventing the Harmony from taking over those worlds in the months or years it takes us to turn theoretical underpinnings into workable devices.
Again, we have absolutely no assurance that there's a "push button solve problem" solution here. The Harmony is a great power with advanced technology of its own; it's entirely possible that anything we can do to interfere with the Singers on their own territory, they can screen against. Ultimately we have to think about containment and long term strategies.
The Biophage was ultimately a threat with a small base that became terrifying because of what it could do if it ever got past our cordon sanitare. Neutralizing its power to infect with SCIENCE! made it no longer a threat. That's not going to work so well here, because we can't just turn the Harmony off like a light switch, and they still have powerful fleets and hordes of secret agents in the neighboring societies even after we reveal what they're up to. If we can't prevent them from taking places over and gaining big piles of power in the short term, it's going to matter a lot less if we understand after the fact how they did it.
Because again, we know exactly how the Cardassian Union works, and that never stopped them from being an expansionist threat against us.
...And you think they won't assume the worst? The core mentality of the Singers is that of shell-shocked post-apocalyptic survivors.
Citation needed. We can't realistically expect every scrap of Federation firepower to be thrown at the Harmony, and political will is a major factor to determining the balance of power.
It just doesn't make sense to insist that adding several developed species' worth of extra power to the Harmony won't make them more of a problem.
Imagine if we'd just LET the Cardassians annex the Apiata, Indorians, and Seyek because we were too interested in getting the full details on the internal government. How many knock-on effects would that have had? What would we have lost, dealing with the consequences of those species having flipped against us?
Given that the Singers already have control of the Harmony infosphere and can mentally influence their people, what makes you think we'll get ANY significant traction among the Harmony just by revealing theoretical science on how the Singers (which most Harmony citizens don't believe exist) might somehow be able to manipulate them? All their own media agencies and scientists will be in position to assure them it's just a conspiracy theory.
We're not getting "detailed proof of everything the Harmony does to control people," Enerael. We're getting theoretical underpinnings. The equivalent of saying "as clearly proven by this research paper saying lizardmen might exist, clearly lizardment secretly rule the world."
It's evidence of something that happened decades ago, on a subject where we won't be able to find corroborating physical evidence (the way you can literally point to the physical facilities at places like Auschwitz). On a subject where the Tauni themselves already have issues with conspiracy theories.
We're not going to be able to get the whole galaxy to take for granted that we didn't fake this, or didn't just take a Tauni conspiracy theory about the Harmony and spin it out of control.
Come to think of it, why do you think that knowing the theoretical underpinnings of their psi-computer tech will automatically give us detailed knowledge of how they implement that tech, what their implants look like, and how to prove that the implants are being used in the way we describe?
Proving what the Harmony is doing in Felis space should also prove that mind control is happening, even if we can't explain HOW.
Your argument cuts both ways. You're saying we don't need to know WHAT the Harmony is doing to stop them as long as we know the theory of how they're doing it. But I can equally well flip that around and claim that we don't need to know how they're doing it, as long as we know what they're doing in the first place.
By contrast, if all we have is proof that the Harmony can in theory mind-control people (because we know how it works), and that they did so forty or fifty years ago on a single isolated planet, we're going to be hard-pressed to prove to the Bolians or Felis that members of their societies are being mind-controlled now.
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Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
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Besides what @Simon_Jester already mentioned, the Amarki have one of the largest militaries within the Federation. If a war were to break out (probably not, but you never know) I want as much of it as possible on the front. I don't want us to suddenly find out that part of their fleet has defected or that a significant part of their population is suddenly anti-war because they've been infected.
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
With the theory we would know for example what parts of the brain the implants must interface with to work, and look closely there. And now we have rudimentary detection.
Now we can make some nanites that severs that connection. Rudimentary removal.
We would know lots about how the implants communicate, which would help massively with jamming.
All of those are short term benefits.
All the options that I can think of other than befriending the Singers or neutralizing their mind control are bad ends to one degree or another. With various kinds of war likely.
By the nature of the setting as Star Trek, I would be very surprised if with the theory of the implants and examples we could not deal with them en mass after some research. This kind of stuff happens all the time in the Star Trek.
We can, to a great degree. Singers rely on their mind a control a LOT to govern the HoH. If we disable it, one of the pillars that HoH stands on collapses.
Not ot mention the revelations of Singers and mind control.
They use that mind control extensively to take over places. Proving this neutralizing it helps a lot there.
With the theory and examples, we have proofs that mind control is both possible and used, along with ways to identify, and hopefully stop, it. Then we would have the evidence of how it was extensively used in the Tauni situation, alongside ISC claims of mind control.
I am well aware that the theory is only part of the puzzle, and not enough alone. But combined with the implants in unknowing Starfleet personal and every single HoH citizen? The ISC and Tauni? Felis cybernetics movement?
Even if HOh public believes the mind control and lies in media (I find that unlikely with what we know of limits of Singers mind control, and the need to at least pretend to be an open and democratic society.), it would isolate them completely from other powers. Not a the best end, but not the worst one.
Which is why it is evidence and not proof. Combined with the other things though it should be very powerful nonetheless, and give lots of info on how HoH subversion is done. Lots of their tricks and such, for other look for and counter.
I do not.
With physical examples, which we have a bunch of in Courageous crew, we will give us enough to find and recognize the concrete models. With the theory we will be able to prove what they do, or at least can do (and why would they be in unknowing non consenting sohphonts otherwise?) and recognize other models (parts of brain it must interface with to work for example, so any implants that do...).
At the very least, it proves what the implants can do. Even just the fact that every citizen of HoH can be mind controlled is rather significant, but combined with the other things...
Yes, the infiltration options are not worthless. I never disagreed with this.
We can show them what the Implants look like, and possibly how to find them. How would that not be proof of mind control if they find it in unknowing people? It is possible that the implants were received with consent (unlikely. You do allow people to put stuff like that into your brain unless you trust them a great deal indeed, and HoH is not that trusted yet. Also there would be plenty who wouldn't agree have them anyway.), being told that it does something else, but this is one of the place for the theory option to shine. With it, we can prove what it can do.
Also, the theory affects all of UFP and every other power too. The other options are rather specialized,a nd we do not have enough points to cover all of them.
I think that you are focusing too much on the theory alone, and not how it combines with all those other things. The synergies.
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- Mid-Atlantic
After several months or a few years of R&D, yes.
...
Look, Enerael, we can trade walls of text on this literally all day. I for one am already getting exhausted.
I just want you to recognize that knowing the theory behind how Singers operate isn't going to be a panacea, and that it won't automatically solve our problems of "Harmony diplomacy and infiltration in foreign states" if the only thing we have is "theoretically it is scientifically possible for the Harmony to be doing this thing."
There is a REASON we are being offered other choices to know details about what the Harmony is doing to certain species. It's not because the QMs are trying to trick us into avoiding the obviously super-best option. It's because if we don't know details, we cannot stop those specific plots, at least not in a reasonably timely manner, with a high likelihood of success.
...
I would also like you to acknowledge that are not, realistically, being offered a "push button, end Singers very soon" option. That is grossly optimistic, given that the Harmony is in fact a major power that has its own means of self-defense and is still controlled by the Singers. You seem to be operating on the assumption that if we learn the theory of how the Singrs work, we can cause Singer mind control to break down in star systems dozens of light years away, star systems we don't control and can't gain access to without the Harmony's permission, or without a war.
This is not remotely a realistic expectation.
How are we going to even find many of those implants and plots if we deliberately gave up having the evidence that they even occurred? So far the Harmony has been quite successful at muddying the waters and maintaining deniability. That won't magically change just because we have some papers on the possibilities of psychic upload computer minds running around theoretically being capable of mind-controlling people.
Chaos Blade
Procrastinating Writer
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Let's start with Psionic tech: meaning the implant won't necesarily be connected to the brain. And we do have some experience with psionic events, both the Vulcan mind meld and the Betazed do seem to operate in the psi spectrum. Hell, if we go by the second pilot of TOS, psi is a known value in the federation.
So, you assume the implant interfaces with the brain, in a physical manner, this is not necessarily the case for psy, and we know this. you also assume you can use nanites to sever this connection, assuming it is physical, without ill effects on the person .
And we wouldn't know how the implants communicate, we'd just a few ideas on how, depending how indepth the theory we could get is. we might have ways it can communicate, in theory, but limited due to practical limits, or paths not taken because one reason or the other.
to make an analogy, suppose we have the underpinnings of wireless communication, this can take many forms, from the simple pulses of Morse, to different bands of frequency and modulations . if we had the theoretical underpinnings we would still have the hurdles on how to make a high frequency radio for instance, and a lot of those are practical solution, engineering solutions, that might depend on techs we do not have and assuming you just want to jam a particular radio frequency.... you do need to be able to build something that can operate in said frequency, and also you'd first have to sniff the frequency and that has a whole other set of engineering challenges! and this is assuming they operate in one frequency and do not jump frequencies which would add a whole slew of challenges.
So, no, I am not seeing any short term benefit, because while the federation has some understanding on psionic phenomena, we lack much in the way of psionic tech, specially of the same nature as the HoH.
This is a tech the HoH has mastered, do you think we would be able to catch up enough to subvert it? or to neutralize it? they have a massive advantage in this field, do we really want to try and see if we can out do them here? does that sound like a wise course of action?
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Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
I never claimed otherwise?
It wouldn't solve them fully, but sufficiently. Yes, the various more specific options would solve them better, more thoroughly, but they are all specific to a single polity, and lack the massive potential of the theory option.
Out goals here are simple. Prevent the HoH from absorbing more polities, hurting the UFP majorly, and solve the problem that they are.
The theory option, with its multiple synergies, should give us enough to stop HoH from absorbing anyone, except for maybe the Bolians.
And is the only option that would help us solve the HoH. The mind control, the Singers, the Dystopia. Help mind, not an autowin.
Again, I never said this. The theory option addresses mind control only, not the Singers themselves, beyond perhaps as evidence of their existence.
Neither do the other options, though.
As for breaking down their mind control in HoH space, the revelation, proof, and way to jam/remove/disable the implants alone, when released to HoH public, could well be enough. Remember that HoH is ostensibly a democracy. Not a blatant dystopia. Singers must maintain that image if they want to keep control.
Everyone will be checking for implants after this, but yes. We will miss many plots. Again, I never said that the other options were worthless? have stated otherwise in fact in previous post.
The rest I have addressed already, possibly multiple times, and thus wont address again.
Its not, by WoG. Reread the update. It is a purely technological, no psionics involved.
We have not to this day discovered any anomalous transmissions. This shows that their communication is extremely stealthy. It is my understanding that theoretical understanding would tell us that, say, the implants communicate using neutrinos or something, even if they do not include bluprints of how exactly.
It would also help us determining patterns that, say, commands to be angry have, and thus identify and jam them. Minimum bandwidth needed for that. Thats useful, if not a complete answer.
I am sorry to hear that. I named it such to show that this is what it pursues, not that it guaranties one or something.
Because there will be severe political crisis or wars if we cant disable the mind control.
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[X] Plan Good End
I believe that with the full theoretical underpinnings of the devices in hand, the Federation might make their own Actual Intelligences not under HOH control, and give the Singers someone to talk to, like they wanted.
Then we can give them some councilling and ask them to let up on the mind control a little.
Using our findings to try end the HOH would just cause chaos on that border.
Edit: Anyway, the idea is to end the need for large commitments of ships on that border in the long run.
I believe that with the full theoretical underpinnings of the devices in hand, the Federation might make their own Actual Intelligences not under HOH control, and give the Singers someone to talk to, like they wanted.
Then we can give them some councilling and ask them to let up on the mind control a little.
Using our findings to try end the HOH would just cause chaos on that border.
Edit: Anyway, the idea is to end the need for large commitments of ships on that border in the long run.
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Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
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*applies rolled up newspaper*
No, this is a bad idea! Giving anyone that kind of power is a bad idea. Didn't the augments and the Eugenics Wars teach us anything?
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
Nah, being a Singer has little to do with mind control. UFP wouldn't make those kind of implants.
Sure, even without that your mind would expand and stuff, but the UFP has at least one AI citizen, Gaeni use cybernetic augmentations all the time, etc.
Bigger problem is the sanity one, with organic based minds not generally being made for such form of existence.
Personally, I am more interested in the original Harmony Network then the upload stuff, for now. Much more harmless.
Driven by Apathy
Formerly known as Brain_Caster
[X] Plan Good End
The other stuff is useful, but this is essential.
The other stuff is useful, but this is essential.
Origami Clock
Right twice a day
- Location
- Brighton, UK
[X] Plan Cheap and Dangerous and Federation
[X] Plan We should have expected the Inquisition.
Because even in Star Trek, the idea of silver bullets is a poisonous failure state in human cognition. There is no simple solution to this massive problem set in front of us. This is a society, not a grey goo swarm, and if we could just fiat away societal problems with sufficient tech, we would be the Culture, not Starfleet.
[X] Plan We should have expected the Inquisition.
Because even in Star Trek, the idea of silver bullets is a poisonous failure state in human cognition. There is no simple solution to this massive problem set in front of us. This is a society, not a grey goo swarm, and if we could just fiat away societal problems with sufficient tech, we would be the Culture, not Starfleet.
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
It was never supposed to be? Just a big step toward toppling one of the biggest problems we face with HoH and Singers.
Or are you saying that striving for mass implant deactivation/jamming/etc is a mistake? ST does that all the time, and war, civil otherwise, is very likely if we do not manage.
Origami Clock
Right twice a day
- Location
- Brighton, UK
I'm saying that mass jamming is not a silver bullet. It would probably cause the collapse of their entire civilisation, killing orders of magnitude more that any non-scorched earth war would.
They are not the Borg. We can't just wave some technobabble at them and watch them all explode. Unless we want to genocide them, thy are still going to be there, either in the grip of angry gods who don't know how to deal with not being omnipotent or with the foundation of their civilisation murdered. By us.
Do you think they will be grateful for their freedom? Knowing that we killed the soul of their society for their own good?
What happens if they decide that they want their gods back and open up some of those boxes? Does Determined Exterminator Harmony sounds better than Rogue Servitor Harmony?
There is no off button for toxic societies. And that's what we are up against, not just a collection of mind controlling magical computer girls.
Unrelated to vote: one thing I'd like to note is the starbase Singer implied that suborning an entire Starfleet ship, never mind one as important as the Courageous, was extremely noteworthy and an extraordinary accomplishment for Zarael. That means we shouldn't expect full ship hijacks. More like a small complement of saboteurs, if a Singer wants to risk being "present"; a handful in a ship of thousands.
If we move to military action, having one of our most militarily important member states be compromised could be bad. "Far behind the lines" is not comforting when it comes to saboteurs.
Thors_Alumni
Proud member of Thors Class VII from Liberl
- Location
- Liberl Zemuria.
I have been convinced and am changing my vote.
[X] Plan Cheap and Dangerous and Federation
[X] Plan Cheap and Dangerous and Federation
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
Why would it kill that many? HoH at least pretends to function without the Singers, so it could do so without them with some adjustment. Just replace the Speakers and Avatars that occupy positions of authority.
We dont want them to explode. We want to remove them from the grip of those angry gods. As said grip is in deceit, network supremacy, and mind control, removing two of those should collapse most of it.
If the Illuminati have used mind control to govern our world for our own good and someone just revealed this and possibly provided defense against such, would you rage against them? The ones who revealed it?
Not enough Singers, and completely against th reason that HoH exists.
HoH, with Singers removed, is not actually very toxic. After adjusting to their disappearance, they would be among the more benevolent and sane polities in known space.
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Same with me.