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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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ctulhuslp said:
HoH are bigger threat wrt powerlevel, but they are, IMO, lesser evil.

Like, all this measuring of powerlevels and outgrowing and not 'who is more prone to genocide and oppression' is kinda...ehhh.
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Are they? we know the HOH have done some questionable shit, we suspect they have a subversive and subtle quality to them and seem morally questionable...

But let's go fight a very inconvenient AND distant war, against a lesser power, that will hurt our reset diplomatic efforts against a potential bigger enemy because you think the fascist cardassians are a bigger moral threat.

Look, you want to go to war with Cardassia? fine, I actually feel that way too... but not over this. we could make it a matter of Bajor once we sign the diaspora as part of the Federation, we do that *then* and we hit the spoonheads like the hammer of an angry god, closer to our core and playing to our strengths...
Not charging at a windmill in the middle of nowhere and far from home...

Or are you so bloodthirsty that any half a chance is good for you? that sounds positively Klingon!
 
random_npc said:
1. not really, remember, we're not going to war, we're deploying a fleet to protect a friendly power from a rival. I rather doubt the gorn will see that and go "yeah, their a threat to us." It's going to be a fairly obvous outgrowth of the federations plan of containment for the pact.
2. see the above. I mean, it's not like the federation has been secretive about it's opposition to the ashalla pact.
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The Casus Belli we use matters. We have no diplomatic agreements with the Chrystovians, no defensive pacts, nothing. Our justification is "we don't like it when the Cardassians do things." Do you not see the consequences for every other authoritarian power we're in contact with, many of whom also have ambitions outside their space?

random_npc said:
4. this one is viable, but I'm kind of a cold enough basted that I don't see 100C of raiders coming at the pact with murder in their hearts as entirely negative.
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You heard it here first folks, voting for war with Cardassia means being ok with genocide
 
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random_npc said:
1. not really, remember, we're not going to war, we're deploying a fleet to protect a friendly power from a rival. If said rival shoots at us then it's war. I rather doubt the gorn will see that and go "yeah, their a threat to us." It's going to be a fairly obvous outgrowth of the federations plan of containment for the pact.
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We cannot get ships to defend them in place before the Cardassians have conquered them. Unless you count a 5 ship tripwire that leaves Rethelia exposed. Then, the impetus for shooting first is entirely on us. Are we willing to do that? Is the council willing to do that?
 
I should note that this isn't hidden discord knowledge, it's in anon's post:
If it has not been made explicit enough, voting for one of these options has a high probability of ending in war with Cardassia. If the intervention vote wins, a Chrystovian Task Force or Intervention strategy is mandatory
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That probably should read "A Chrystovian Task Force AND Intervention strategy is mandatory." Looking back on it. Hope that clears things up!
 
Glassware said:
The Casus Belli we use matters. We have no diplomatic agreements with the Chrystovians, no defensive pacts, nothing. Our justification is "we don't like it when the Cardassians do things." Do you not see the consequences for every other authoritarian power we're in contact with, many of whom also have ambitions outside their space?
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you are aware that other powers can look at the political situation right? I mean, if you look at it like a sociopath/autocrat this is pretty clearly the federation checking the growth of a dangerous potential rival. Sides, it's not like establishing a precedent of not letting people conquer powers near us is a bad thing.

Glassware said:
You heard it here first folks, voting for war with Cardassia means being ok with genocide
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I'm sorry, I should have expended my stance a bit. 100C of ships going after a pact member is one hell of a reason for a cease fire, hell possibly even a short term alliance. I'm not saying let the imlek burn, I'm saying that the attempt happening when we can use it to our politely advantage rather than when we can't is not a negative.
 
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random_npc said:
you are aware that other powers can look at the political situation right? I mean, if you look at it like a sociopath/autocrat this is pretty clearly the federation checking the growth of a dangerous potential rival. Sides, it's not like establishing a precedent of not letting people conquer powers near us is a bad thing.
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This is incentive for every non-democratic power to come to the realization that to the Federation they are a dangerous potential rival and seek like-minded allies to oppose us. It will drive them into the arms of the Cardassians, the Romulans, the Gorn, the Ittick-ka and the Klingons. It's incentive for people like the Gorn and Cardassians to set up anti-Federation alliances and create a galactic political scene that is allied and hostile to us.
 
Glassware said:
This is incentive for every non-democratic power to come to the realization that to the Federation they are a dangerous potential rival and seek like-minded allies to oppose us. It will drive them into the arms of the Cardassians, the Romulans, the Gorn, the Ittick-ka and the Klingons. It's incentive for people like the Gorn and Cardassians to set up anti-Federation alliances and create a galactic political scene that is allied and hostile to us.
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Which, ironically, might force us to ally with our fellow democrats in.... the HoH!
 
Glassware said:
This is incentive for every non-democratic power to come to the realization that to the Federation they are a dangerous potential rival and seek like-minded allies to oppose us. It will drive them into the arms of the Cardassians, the Romulans, the Gorn, the Ittick-ka and the Klingons. It's incentive for people like the Gorn and Cardassians to set up anti-Federation alliances and create a galactic political scene that is allied and hostile to us.
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and I think you are overestimating how much this will be seen as aggression by other powers. we can argue that point, but it would be kind of pointless without QM clarification.
 
random_npc said:
you are aware that other powers can look at the political situation right? I mean, if you look at it like a sociopath/autocrat this is pretty clearly the federation checking the growth of a dangerous potential rival. Sides, it's not like establishing a precedent of not letting people conquer powers near us is a bad thing.
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Yes, they can look at the political situation. What they'll see is the Federation, previously a fairly non-interventionist power, intervening to help someone who is of no relation to the UFP. Opposing what is a bullshit, but valid-sounding casus belli. The last time the Federation launched a major intervention was when there were people attempting to detonate stars. This radically changes what the Federation is in the opinions of everyone else. Tensions are low with the Romulans and Klingons because we leave each other alone. What happens if that changes?
 
ctulhuslp said:
HoH are bigger threat wrt powerlevel, but they are, IMO, lesser evil.

Like, all this measuring of powerlevels and outgrowing and not 'who is more prone to genocide and oppression' is kinda...ehhh.
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I hate "lesser evil". This is pure bullshit. There is evil, it's as simple as that.

For the record, Harmony has a Minority Report police state going on enforced via YouTube algorithms, in which government sanctions executions of those that they believe aren't being helped in therapy. How many thousands, maybe millions of people have been deliberately murdered in the pursuit of their perfect vision of society? It is very strongly implied that they resort to straight-up Russian election tactics, where they deliberately nudge and alter facts to fit their version of history better, as we've seen with Felis.

The fact that they're nominally democratic and much more hypocritical about their bullshit than Cardassians is irrelevant; they are exactly same pieces of shit, with different coat on top.

Let's also recap the fact that a lot of Federation isn't behind this war at all. The Indorians, Quolathi, Seyek and Rethelians (sorry if I get our last snek friends-name wrong) are strongly against this. The Apiata are neutral, but have strongly indicated that they will shift entire attention to guarding their own sector. Ashidi can't make up their mind whether it's better to attack now, or whether they'll be rolled badly by Pact. The only people who explicitly care are Amaraki and Humans, and even Humans are a bit ambiguous about it. So yeah, great Federation there; I'm sure launching a de-facto war with marginal support will work out great for Starfleet bound by civilian oversight.

We're literally throwing the last 5 years or so of our strategy because people suddenly woke up, and decided to re-prioritize at literally the worst moment possible.

I honestly cannot fathom how people can think that this won't end in Klingon-Romulan War 2.0. It's been explicitly pointed out that it will take HoH battlegroup 2 months to get to Chrystovian space, so they won't even be able to support us on time. And once shooting starts, I doubt they will stick around.

If people are ready to go to the wire over Chrystovians of all things, the people we have explicitly agreed we have no chance of saving ages ago, that's fine. But when STO salient is overrun and surrenders unconditionally to Pact and half of our shipyards are debris, I will not suffer people asking how we got there, or their salt when the inevitable peace treaty basically ends with state quo ante bellum...with Chrystovians still being occupied.
 
random_npc said:
you are aware that other powers can look at the political situation right? I mean, if you look at it like a sociopath/autocrat this is pretty clearly the federation checking the growth of a dangerous potential rival. Sides, it's not like establishing a precedent of not letting people conquer powers near us is a bad thing.
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There is nothing clearly about how other powers will take such a hypothetical intervention, no matter their alignment or ethos.
The problem is that it isn't exactly a power near us, it is a distant power, one that we really won't be able to help in time.

A distant war over a questionable cause is going to be neat for our internal morale and cohesion, or for our other commitments.

If we want war with cardassia, we want it close, in Gabriel or Bajor.
But if we take this to do that? we really will be looking at opportunistic, other powers might see us how we see the HOH, and we'd be moving against federation ideals there.

No, now it is not the time, not yet
 
Vote your best assessment, or at least your gut. This is not a good vote for cute interpretations. Opting to intervene is opting for a muscular response - you will draw together a force, figure out how long it will take to be in place, and then there will be a determination as to whether the Cardassians call your bluff (it is expected that they will). After that, it's go hard or go home. (Backing down at that stage is tantamount to Shey falling on his sword).

We aren't tricking you - the post tells you, an intervention leaves you with a high chance of being at war.

Not intervening carries its own set of high risks, of course, as laid out in the post. You can still apply non-military strategies, but if you want and armed force, or to threaten/bluff armed force, you need the intervention to get the go ahead from the President.
 
There is a simple question being asked, in this, do we intervene or do we not intervene. It is both something that of a simple question, but also one that is incredibly complicated and represents the binary choice that it is at. It is a question over if we choose to intervene to save the Confederacy from an invasion, and likely wind up into a major conflagration, or if we choose to stand by, and to let them be absorbed. We only need to look at what has happened with Bajor for what Chrystovian will face. This was something that was a difficult choice for myself, and one that was significantly contested between my head and my heart on this, but I went with my heart in terms of what to do. There is a quote I found from Haile Selassie that probably best describes why I voted the way I did:

Throughout history it has been the inaction of those who could have acted, the indifference of those who should have known better, the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most, that has made it possible for evil to triumph.
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Glassware said:
We know the HoH have attempted at least one genocide in the past. Is it nicer just because it's a democracy doing it?
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Fair enough. We must oppose both.
Glassware said:
This is incentive for every non-democratic power to come to the realization that to the Federation they are a dangerous potential rival and seek like-minded allies to oppose us. It will drive them into the arms of the Cardassians, the Romulans, the Gorn, the Ittick-ka and the Klingons. It's incentive for people like the Gorn and Cardassians to set up anti-Federation alliances and create a galactic political scene that is allied and hostile to us.
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Like they already did with Ashalla Pact, you mean?

If the other choice is Federation not being dangerous rival to fascists anymore, then so be it.
First they came for Poland and we did nothing because to UFP political concerns and fear of reaction are more important than morals. We are not some spits idealists.
 
Usili 2.0 said:
There is a simple question being asked, in this, do we intervene or do we not intervene. It is both something that of a simple question, but also one that is incredibly complicated and represents the binary choice that it is at. It is a question over if we choose to intervene to save the Confederacy from an invasion, and likely wind up into a major conflagration, or if we choose to stand by, and to let them be absorbed. We only need to look at what has happened with Bajor for what Chrystovian will face. This was something that was a difficult choice for myself, and one that was significantly contested between my head and my heart on this, but I went with my heart in terms of what to do. There is a quote I found from Haile Selassie that probably best describes why I voted the way I did:
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You have thus failed the millions who will die when the Gorn and Ittick-ka go to war. You have failed the millions who will die when the Licori collapse into revolution. You have failed whichever of the Imelak and Hishmeri genocide the other. You are the silence that will allow evil to triumph throughout the quadrant.

We want to save everyone. Limited resources means you save who you can with what you have.
 
Usili 2.0 said:
There is a simple question being asked, in this, do we intervene or do we not intervene. It is both something that of a simple question, but also one that is incredibly complicated and represents the binary choice that it is at. It is a question over if we choose to intervene to save the Confederacy from an invasion, and likely wind up into a major conflagration, or if we choose to stand by, and to let them be absorbed. We only need to look at what has happened with Bajor for what Chrystovian will face. This was something that was a difficult choice for myself, and one that was significantly contested between my head and my heart on this, but I went with my heart in terms of what to do. There is a quote I found from Haile Selassie that probably best describes why I voted the way I did:
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Here's another quote: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Stopping one wrong at the cost of letting many more occur is not what I would call the moral or strategic choice.

Let's not forget that, just because the Cardassians are worse, the Chrystovians are not innocent here. We know they've done at least some of what the Cardassians are accusing them of here.
 
Usili 2.0 said:
There is a simple question being asked, in this, do we intervene or do we not intervene. It is both something that of a simple question, but also one that is incredibly complicated and represents the binary choice that it is at. It is a question over if we choose to intervene to save the Confederacy from an invasion, and likely wind up into a major conflagration, or if we choose to stand by, and to let them be absorbed. We only need to look at what has happened with Bajor for what Chrystovian will face. This was something that was a difficult choice for myself, and one that was significantly contested between my head and my heart on this, but I went with my heart in terms of what to do. There is a quote I found from Haile Selassie that probably best describes why I voted the way I did:
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Just because you can act sadly doesn't mean that you always should. Acting here means we likely end up in a war that we frankly aren't in a good position to fight. There is a very major risk that we will lose alot and that will set our plans in the rest of the neighborhood back by a significant amount. If we try to save the Chrystovians here, we will likely be unable to save others in the future.
 
Indrik said:
Let's not forget that, just because the Cardassians are worse, the Chrystovians are not innocent here. We know they've done at least some of what the Cardassians are accusing them of here.
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I uh, can't support that interpretation. The Chrystovians don't deserve what's coming. No one does. We simply can't save them.
 
Usili 2.0 said:
There is a simple question being asked, in this, do we intervene or do we not intervene. It is both something that of a simple question, but also one that is incredibly complicated and represents the binary choice that it is at. It is a question over if we choose to intervene to save the Confederacy from an invasion, and likely wind up into a major conflagration, or if we choose to stand by, and to let them be absorbed. We only need to look at what has happened with Bajor for what Chrystovian will face. This was something that was a difficult choice for myself, and one that was significantly contested between my head and my heart on this, but I went with my heart in terms of what to do. There is a quote I found from Haile Selassie that probably best describes why I voted the way I did:
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So we go to war everytime an authoritarian power is going to conquer to another nation? In the future if say the Gorn, Romulan's and Klingon's are all going to conquer a different nation at the same time or pretty closely, we should go to war with all of them?
 
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Raw90 said:
I uh, can't support that interpretation. The Chrystovians don't deserve what's coming. No one does. We simply can't save them.
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No, a few people have been arguing that since the Cardie justification has some basis in the truth, the Chrystovians have earned what is done to them.
 
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