Damn, lots of souls searching went into this vote.


The arguments have been hashed and rehashed. My brain says no but my heart says yes.
We can focus on preventing a few future incidents for us but this might become a long-lasting issue in the future too.
Our combat outlook isn't good but if we keep putting it off until "later" we'll never get to it at all.
If we consolidate we'll be in better position to help the Chrystovians in the future but that doesn't help them now.

War isn't good, but sometimes it is necessary to succeed. But can we even secure a positive outcome in the first place?

[X] We should not intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.

To me, some form of response is required. Not all out war necessarily, but the non-intervention option is too limiting.
Intervention such as humanitarian aid, diplomatically checking the Cardassians, stepping up border patrols along the border to reduce the amount of ships they can dedicate to the Chrystovians. But these heavier responses (which can lead to war, I admit) require the ability to act rather than an outright hampering of our options. I'm going to have faith in the players here that we can navigate a path to intervene without causing war, hope that the later votes go that way rather than simply jumping into "FIGHT NAO". In fact, I've read a suggestion that we also declare war on the Chrystovians on the same grounds as the Cardassians so we have grounds to be there.

Might be too idealistic. But hey, at least we can work with the Horizon and the ISC! More people must mean more complications fun!


After more posts and clarifications, I have changed my vote.
 
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[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.

understanding that the logistics are bad
understanding that our tactical options are not there yet.
and we know that its not the best move in the general over all fleet reason.

the politics of this if we don`t will i think hurt more long and short term then anything we might lose.

i wanted 5 year peace as much as the next person but it doesn`t look like we can get out of it.

i say let the ISC support us in the HoH border.
and hey why not ask the HoH and the ISC too both help in some way maybe is help smooth something over for all party`s.

also about the klingon thing again, Defensive Pack not Ally`s
Klingons attacked there for nobody really expected us too help in anyway right?
 
the politics of this if we don`t will i think hurt more long and short term then anything we might lose.

What. Our potential losses from a war with the Pact, even if we win, could cripple us for decades. The diplomatic consequences of nonintervention are piddling-and intervention carries it's own consequences for diplomacy corewards and with the Klingons and Romulans.
 
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Damn, lots of souls searching went into this vote.


The arguments have been hashed and rehashed. My brain says no but my heart says yes.
We can focus on preventing a few future incidents for us but this might become a long-lasting issue in the future too.
Our combat outlook isn't good but if we keep putting it off until "later" we'll never get to it at all.
If we consolidate we'll be in better position to help the Chrystovians in the future but that doesn't help them now.

War isn't good, but sometimes it is necessary to succeed. But can we even secure a positive outcome in the first place?

[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.

To me, some form of response is required. Not all out war necessarily, but the non-intervention option is too limiting.
Intervention such as humanitarian aid, diplomatically checking the Cardassians, stepping up border patrols along the border to reduce the amount of ships they can dedicate to the Chrystovians. But these heavier responses (which can lead to war, I admit) require the ability to act rather than an outright hampering of our options. I'm going to have faith in the players here that we can navigate a path to intervene without causing war, hope that the later votes go that way rather than simply jumping into "FIGHT NAO". In fact, I've read a suggestion that we also declare war on the Chrystovians on the same grounds as the Cardassians so we have grounds to be there.

Might be too idealistic. But hey, at least we can work with the Horizon and the ISC! More people must mean more complications fun!


At this stage the only feasible intervention *is* war and a war with cardassia will inevitable escalate into a war with the Ashalla Pact.

...And you want to DoW both the Carddies and the Chrystovians? how would that work? what would be our Casus Belis here? and how much do you think that will hurt all of our diplomatic commitments?
 
[X] We should not intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.

Far too many seem to be taking the HoH's carefully crafted manipulations at face value. Yes, they might score some diplomatic points by framing this as a moral failure and yes, the ISC will be disappointed (even if they're being rather hypocritical in their expectations here), but that's overlooking the high price of intervention here.

We have little reasonable chance of stopping Cardassian aggression given our distance and current force distribution without seriously damaging our efforts elsewhere. There are the costs of intervention:
1. Likely war with the Cardassians becomes immediate and they can claim the moral high ground to some extent due to the Chrystovians' treatment of primitive civilizations, leading to full war with the Ashalla Pact.
2. Lack of garrisons means increasing failures in events and thus local emergencies, political fiascos, and poor morale.
3. We basically surrender the entire HBZ to Horizon without contest as we won't have the ships to make a decent diplomatic counterweight.
4. The Gorn are upset by our focusing elsewhere and drift further into the Cardassian sphere of influence.
5. We give up any chance to influence the Ittick-ka and they likely have a war with the Gorn sooner rather than later.
6. We cannot afford to deal with Alupii, allowing Cardassian efforts to proceed there which only strengthens them long-term.
7. A precedent of intervention in any authoritarian expansion leads other less-than-democratic polities to expect hostility from the Federation whenever they do anything outside their borders, meaning we have lost significant diplomatic pull and likely force them closer together with the major authoritarian power of Cardassia in the future.

The Federation try to be moral where possible, but are not moral crusaders. We have no obligation to right every wrong simply because we should. It is practically impossible to do so and the Horizon are trying to lure us into that position with poorly disguised manipulation. Do not fall for their trap.
 
It will take us well over two months to deploy enough ships to the Chrystovians for the Cardassians to pause, especially if we pause to bring in the ISC and HoH. By that time, it is almost certain that the Cardassians will have taken Chrystovia. They'll ask "What do you want to do about it?" and we can either launch a general war, with a large number of ships out of position, and likely to be eliminated, or back down, damaging our credibility far more than it would be if we do not intervene.

If we do not deploy our ships to Chrystovia, and instead form them up positioned to assault Bajor or the GBZ, we'll be in the exact same situation. We complain to Cardassia, and Cardassia says "do you want a general war?", because that's the only thing those ships are good for. We can start a general war, yes, but we have no other escalation we're able to control. We can't hit the Cardassians with crippling trade sanctions or whatever, because they don't trade with us, and it's fairly similar with our diplomatic efforts. Can't withdraw embassies that were never there.

Frankly, I'm not sure we'll even get the Chrystovians back outside of a total victory in a general war, and we've seen how likely those are, and the answer is "not very". The Chrystovians are a great distance away from even the Ashidi, and "protected" once under Pact control by the location of the Imelak and Lecarre. We might liberate Bajor, but is Bajor a worthwhile trade for building up a fighting fleet in the future, bringing the Gorn, Alupii, Urr'azzi, and everyone else who can help us counter future Cardassian action on side?
 
The Harmony is a threat, yes, but they are a threat that will be a thorn in our side if allowed to grow, not an existential danger. We don't like them. I like the Cardassians even less.

And yes, this isn't ideal. Wars don't happen in ideal circumstances. The very nature of our doctrine means we can't pick an ideal time to go to war. Can we defend this one? No, probably not. We're taking a stand against the Cardassians marching into Checkoslovakia, though. We don't have to defend Checkoslovakia, just make sure they don't walk away with smug smiles and a wonderful precedent.

[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
 
Tell ya what.


Cardassians are no-shit fascists. Our dick-measuring against HoH should never have been a priority comparable to opposing no-shit Axis powers of Ashalla Pact.

[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
 
The Harmony is a threat, yes, but they are a threat that will be a thorn in our side if allowed to grow, not an existential danger. We don't like them. I like the Cardassians even less.

And yes, this isn't ideal. Wars don't happen in ideal circumstances. The very nature of our doctrine means we can't pick an ideal time to go to war. Can we defend this one? No, probably not. We're taking a stand against the Cardassians marching into Checkoslovakia, though. We don't have to defend Checkoslovakia, just make sure they don't walk away with smug smiles and a wonderful precedent.

[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
Honestly, I think the HoH are a bigger threat than the Pact.
 
For myself, Federation ideals are about IDIC. Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combination, different species learning to live together to produce a greater whole.

I actually don't think Federation ideals have much to mandate outside interventions.
 
Likely knock-on consequences of a general war with Cardassia:

1. The Gorn side with Cardassia, because our CB for this is incredibly thin and could be used to justify opposing the acts of any non-democratic regime anywhere.
2. In general, our diplomacy with non-democracies becomes harder-and this is an issue for us being able to spread democracy, because we are best at doing that through peaceful reform and diplomacy, not at phaser-point.
3. The Ittick-ka and Gorn get into a war that sees millions dead and the winner becomes a hostile Great Power.
4. The Hishmeri see the Pact's distraction as a reason to go ahead with their dreams of genocide for the Imelak.

War will not benefit anyone. Our ability to help others by playing Space Police will be massively reduced and a dozen other crisis will spawn from missed events and the like. It's stupid.
 
Can we defend this one? No, probably not. We're taking a stand against the Cardassians marching into Checkoslovakia, though. We don't have to defend Checkoslovakia, just make sure they don't walk away with smug smiles and a wonderful precedent.
To go to war knowing that your war goal is quite possibly completely unachievable, all for a single moral stand, seems unwise. Say we don't manage to achieve our aims of liberate Chrystovia, what do we have left? Thousands dead, crippled diplomatic efforts everywhere else, including our efforts to build an anti-Cardassian alliance with the Gorn. And this is the case of a negotiated peace, with stuff at pre-general war boundaries. Which will not include Chrystovia as an independent state.
 
Hell we know the Harmony gave a good attempt at screwing over the ISC and that they basically did a slightly nicer form of Bajor's exploitation with regards to the Tauni.

I also would not be surprised if their task force gets recalled halfway through the war with some BS emergency leaving us hanging at a terrible time.
 
Hell we know the Harmony gave a good attempt at screwing over the ISC and that they basically did a slightly nicer form of Bajor's exploitation with regards to the Tauni.

I also would not be surprised if their task force gets recalled halfway through the war with some BS emergency leaving us hanging at a terrible time.

Personally, I'm thinking they trigger revolution in Licori space while we're distracted, and use that as an excuse to move in peacekeepers. And while Lugis getting guillotined would be satisfying in a "sic semper tyranis" way, it does not align with our foreign policy goals and our desires to not see millions of people die.
 
Likely knock-on consequences of a general war with Cardassia:

1. The Gorn side with Cardassia, because our CB for this is incredibly thin and could be used to justify opposing the acts of any non-democratic regime anywhere.
2. In general, our diplomacy with non-democracies becomes harder-and this is an issue for us being able to spread democracy, because we are best at doing that through peaceful reform and diplomacy, not at phaser-point.
3. The Ittick-ka and Gorn get into a war that sees millions dead and the winner becomes a hostile Great Power.
4. The Hishmeri see the Pact's distraction as a reason to go ahead with their dreams of genocide for the Imelak.

War will not benefit anyone. Our ability to help others by playing Space Police will be massively reduced and a dozen other crisis will spawn from missed events and the like. It's stupid.

to address your points in order.

1. not really, remember, we're not going to war, we're deploying a fleet to protect a friendly power from a rival. If said rival shoots at us then it's war. I rather doubt the gorn will see that and go "yeah, their a threat to us." It's going to be a fairly obvous outgrowth of the federations plan of containment for the pact.
2. see the above. I mean, it's not like the federation has been secretive about it's opposition to the ashalla pact.
3. rather doubt we would be able to stop that war honestly.
4. this one is viable, but I'm kind of a cold enough basted that I don't see 100C of raiders coming at the pact with murder in their hearts as entirely negative.
 
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Paraphrasing from @Iron Wolf in Discord: if you vote for Intervention, it is specifically a military response.

Nonmilitary but still engaged responses are still an option if you vote for nonintervenion.
 
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