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I meant in the sense the OSA has no reach beyond their homeworld. their space forces are run by the corps. but we have about 20 ships about to dig into this mess, so I'll speculate when we know more.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
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I meant in the sense the OSA has no reach beyond their homeworld. their space forces are run by the corps. but we have about 20 ships about to dig into this mess, so I'll speculate when we know more.
Random Member
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I'm calling it now. The corps are receiving active Klingon backing, not just deserters or under the table sales. This is a lot of Klingon hardware for it not being coordinated, if perhaps only by a single faction or house.
I'm not sure what the Klingons planned to gain. Getting rid of leftover GLORY HONOR types isn't enough, I doubt the corps could pay them enough to justify it for that alone, and before the Breen invasion I can't see what they would hope to gain by keeping us distracted (except maybe a chance to do something with the brewing Gorn/Itick-ka war?), but it seems pretty clear that this is what was being hinted at. They aren't as good at subtle as most of our other threatening neighbors, but they are a hell of a lot better about it than one would think when they care to be.
I'm not sure what the Klingons planned to gain. Getting rid of leftover GLORY HONOR types isn't enough, I doubt the corps could pay them enough to justify it for that alone, and before the Breen invasion I can't see what they would hope to gain by keeping us distracted (except maybe a chance to do something with the brewing Gorn/Itick-ka war?), but it seems pretty clear that this is what was being hinted at. They aren't as good at subtle as most of our other threatening neighbors, but they are a hell of a lot better about it than one would think when they care to be.
I'd see it as less likely to be Klingon backing and more likely to be Klingon leftovers that might as well be sent to die somewhere they can distract the Federation. But yeah, I can buy this.
Also, if they are behind this then they totally want us away from the Breen/Romulan war. But planning that would require them to have some form of contact with the Breen, which is why I consider the whole idea unlikely.
KnightDisciple
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...Or just hook them up with the Rigellians?
Or introduce them and the Rigellians to communism.
The thing about corporations is that they expect an ROI. They aren't like governments where you might pour resources into building all those ships for pure self-defense and the general good. Which means the piracy problem may be far, far worse than we ever imagined. We just haven't heard about a lot of the incidents, because the corps were good at covering it up. If I were any local power, I would be checking any instances of "lost ships" going back decades and looking at them real, real closely.
That still does leave the question of the inciting incident. Why, oh why, did one of the corps decide to go after a Laio explorer of all things? Where is the profit in that? Are the Tauni right?
That still does leave the question of the inciting incident. Why, oh why, did one of the corps decide to go after a Laio explorer of all things? Where is the profit in that? Are the Tauni right?
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Ease off on the spaghetti posting. Chopping a post into one-liners to pick at every last thing is frowned on.
KnightDisciple
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Okay, serious talk, the Rigellians are productive members of the Federation who've not caused any major problems in, like, ever? They are also not moneyless communists; they have at least some form of economy, companies, etc.
We brought them in on the Anti-Syndicate operations specifically so the Orions knew we weren't conquering them and destroying their way of living so thoroughly to then force them to be communisits.
Why can't we use that same approach here?
Because the Corps haven't attacked us so we just plain don't get to do an Anti-Syndicate style full campaign. That's why they don't attack us, focusing on Licori and Laio shipping, they realize how messing with our stuff would go.
Also the OSA government doesn't realize they have a crime and/or corporative problem at all so they are far less enthusiastic than the Orions with the idea of any kind of intervention.
Finally if we tried it at any point the Corps could hi-jack the OSA government and get it to order us out, turning any further intervention from law enforcement into war, which the Federation Council would be far more reluctant about.
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The easy answer is that the Klingons simply wanted to make some easy "money" and sold/hired out some military surplus after war, which wouldn't exactly be that unbelievable.
A more longterm idea might have been to create a possible Klingon ally/friend on the northern border of the Romulans for the next chapter of the conflict against them, or if you want to get even more complicated to counteract a possible Romulan affiliated Arcadian Empire. (And the current escalation could well be an unintended side-effect of said support).
Hell, it might even be a complicated false flag operation by the Romulan Empire or the remants of its security apparatus with the goal of securing the Arcadian Empire as an "ally" by using the raids/piracy to weaken the Federation aligned Emperor via a prolonged piracy and/or a costly war to for example allow a pro-Rom candidate to get the throne or to simply make an alliance with the Romulans more tempting. (A plan that of course would be truly fucked by the Breen invasion but that isn't something they necessarily had to know of when they started this thing). Hell, it might simply be an Romulan led attempt to destabilize the region and weaken Federation authority and prestige due some lingering paranoia about it capitalizing on the Star Empires current weakness or fear for getting having strong federation affiliates on its northern border.
It might be a Breen sponsored effort to distract the galactic public from its own surprise war that was started well before we made that a far less likely proposal by stumbling over said invasion fleet.
Or the corps might not be as bad as they look and after getting some kind of early warning about the attack on their world doing their level best to prepare to defend their homeworld, hiring every "Gun" they can find.
(And as this thread has shown you can practically endlessly add to this list by looking at things like Horizon etc.)
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KnightDisciple
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There are some valid issues here but I don't see a coherent reason why the Federation "should" steamroll the OSA so hard they force them into moneyless communism?
To me this game has carried on pretty clearly that all the different Federation members have differing ways of handling these things, and once they're ratified (aka they've no longer got any Tags), they're at a point where they've largely cleared any problems with their local system of governence and economics.
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@Glassware
I am declining to reply to the bulk of your paragraph because it contains nothing for me to refute. You are not citing evidence for your opinions about Halkh's opinions, nor about the Licori's motives for fighting the war. You have attributed numerous motivations and intentions, persistently failing to cite support either from my own words, or from the QMs who could conceivably override me by hijacking Halkh's character. There is simply nothing for me to say in response. There is, however, one very accurate observation you have made, to which I would like to reply, because I agree with it. I am in no way refuting or attacking it.
I even had a minor epiphany when I saw you say it, because it's a very good point. You are entirely correct to point this out:
In fact, the best result he'd actually expect would be to trigger confusion and dissent among the megacorps' forces, hopefully causing some of the people manning those ships to mutiny out of loyalty to the central government. He's very familiar with the dynamics of a weak central government that maintains a precarious rule over several large quasi-independent subordinate powers, after all. He's lived in one almost his entire life, remember?
But creating a situation where the megacorps, if they wish to fight on as armed bodies, have to fight on in defiance of the central government, is far less bad from his point of view than a situation where the megacorps are free to fight as they please, with at best the obstinate protection and at worst the active connivance of the central government.
Furthermore, such a scenario would also drag Federation attention to the scope of the problem that is in the process of spiralling out of control on their borders. Namely, the existence of a massive pirate fleet that the Federation only took decisive action to combat after it became clear that the local powers were on the brink of war over the OSA megacorps' piracy.
Compare this to the status quo, which from the point of view of the Licori, is starting to look a lot like "OSA megacorps balloon into a pirate fleet that can do pretty much whatever it wants to the local powers. The rather rickety Arcadian Empire appears to be the perfect target for their invasion and exploitation. Especially since it has no defense treaties with the Federation, not even the easily-ignored kind of defense treaty the Laio allegedly have and which were not activated when one of their greatest ships was attacked and destroyed by the pirates."
"I prefer such a strategy. It's very effective. You used it on us, for instance, and you beat us like a drum- and did so efficiently, I might add. Some attribute your victory purely to superior numbers, but there is an art to using superior numbers to good effect. T'Lorel, Thuir, and ka'Sharren have it."
"Though perhaps I should be attributing rather more of the credit to Eaton, or to Sulu."
[frowns thoughtfully]
"Point of order. The OSA and its merchant princes have quite a number of substantial heavy ships; we have a great many small, comparatively frail frigates. If we're not careful, we could lose many small ships in a battle that costs the merchant princes nothing more than the money spent replacing surge protectors on their shield generators. Like insects splattering off a windscreen. Something we'll be trying to avoid, of course."
There's a difference between firing indiscriminately at a crowd, and firing at a specific individual or group who is themselves using lethal violence, just less effective lethal violence.
There's a difference between declaring war on the armed forces of a private corporation practicing piracy (or the government protecting them) and causing wide slaughter among the civilian population that ignorantly allows the piracy to go on.
If you're going to attack the underlying premise here, attack the real premise, not the cartoon version.
There is a real moral question here, which is, by what right do we ask the Laio and Licori to sit still and be killed while we get around to deciding to deal with the problem? If the Federation did not exist, they would have no recourse but to fight. Even given that the Federation exists, by sitting still and waiting for us to solve the problem, they tacitly concede Federation sovereignty over space the Federation has not claimed and does not police reliably. We can demand that they not fight and wait for us to resolve the situation peacefully, but only by asserting a measure of authority over the situation. A level of authority that at least some of the major political parties within Federation space (e.g. the Pacifists and Developmentalists) almost certainly don't want to assert.
Though I should note that there are nearly no 'true' mentats left alive, unless they were created after the end of the Licori War. Mentats live no more than about ten years, and it's been roughly nine years since the end of the war.
By contrast, the OSA has not had that revolution yet.
I am declining to reply to the bulk of your paragraph because it contains nothing for me to refute. You are not citing evidence for your opinions about Halkh's opinions, nor about the Licori's motives for fighting the war. You have attributed numerous motivations and intentions, persistently failing to cite support either from my own words, or from the QMs who could conceivably override me by hijacking Halkh's character. There is simply nothing for me to say in response. There is, however, one very accurate observation you have made, to which I would like to reply, because I agree with it. I am in no way refuting or attacking it.
I even had a minor epiphany when I saw you say it, because it's a very good point. You are entirely correct to point this out:
Why yes, yes he would have to realize that.Simon_Jester said:
In fact, the best result he'd actually expect would be to trigger confusion and dissent among the megacorps' forces, hopefully causing some of the people manning those ships to mutiny out of loyalty to the central government. He's very familiar with the dynamics of a weak central government that maintains a precarious rule over several large quasi-independent subordinate powers, after all. He's lived in one almost his entire life, remember?
But creating a situation where the megacorps, if they wish to fight on as armed bodies, have to fight on in defiance of the central government, is far less bad from his point of view than a situation where the megacorps are free to fight as they please, with at best the obstinate protection and at worst the active connivance of the central government.
Furthermore, such a scenario would also drag Federation attention to the scope of the problem that is in the process of spiralling out of control on their borders. Namely, the existence of a massive pirate fleet that the Federation only took decisive action to combat after it became clear that the local powers were on the brink of war over the OSA megacorps' piracy.
Compare this to the status quo, which from the point of view of the Licori, is starting to look a lot like "OSA megacorps balloon into a pirate fleet that can do pretty much whatever it wants to the local powers. The rather rickety Arcadian Empire appears to be the perfect target for their invasion and exploitation. Especially since it has no defense treaties with the Federation, not even the easily-ignored kind of defense treaty the Laio allegedly have and which were not activated when one of their greatest ships was attacked and destroyed by the pirates."
Halkh:
"I prefer such a strategy. It's very effective. You used it on us, for instance, and you beat us like a drum- and did so efficiently, I might add. Some attribute your victory purely to superior numbers, but there is an art to using superior numbers to good effect. T'Lorel, Thuir, and ka'Sharren have it."
"Though perhaps I should be attributing rather more of the credit to Eaton, or to Sulu."
[frowns thoughtfully]
Halkh:
"Point of order. The OSA and its merchant princes have quite a number of substantial heavy ships; we have a great many small, comparatively frail frigates. If we're not careful, we could lose many small ships in a battle that costs the merchant princes nothing more than the money spent replacing surge protectors on their shield generators. Like insects splattering off a windscreen. Something we'll be trying to avoid, of course."
See, there's the two-step again.
There's a difference between firing indiscriminately at a crowd, and firing at a specific individual or group who is themselves using lethal violence, just less effective lethal violence.
There's a difference between declaring war on the armed forces of a private corporation practicing piracy (or the government protecting them) and causing wide slaughter among the civilian population that ignorantly allows the piracy to go on.
If you're going to attack the underlying premise here, attack the real premise, not the cartoon version.
There is a real moral question here, which is, by what right do we ask the Laio and Licori to sit still and be killed while we get around to deciding to deal with the problem? If the Federation did not exist, they would have no recourse but to fight. Even given that the Federation exists, by sitting still and waiting for us to solve the problem, they tacitly concede Federation sovereignty over space the Federation has not claimed and does not police reliably. We can demand that they not fight and wait for us to resolve the situation peacefully, but only by asserting a measure of authority over the situation. A level of authority that at least some of the major political parties within Federation space (e.g. the Pacifists and Developmentalists) almost certainly don't want to assert.
It's entirely possible, and another reason for the existing Licori government to take a dim view of the rapid expansion of the pirates. We DO know that Licori renegades are among the pirates that are out there, though I'm not sure it's clear if they're involved with the OSA megacorps to any noticeable scale.Given the corporations seem to hire anything and anyone in the area we can probably expect for some leftover rogue mentats to suddenly appear.
Actually, the goal for them might be too install some friendly Kortennon business partner on the throne. The aftermath of our Licori war probably generated quite a bunch of wealthy "refugees" from the houses that lost hard.
Though I should note that there are nearly no 'true' mentats left alive, unless they were created after the end of the Licori War. Mentats live no more than about ten years, and it's been roughly nine years since the end of the war.
Yeah, it bears remembering that the Orion Union government we actually dealt with was after an entire round of violent revolutions that overthrew the old (TOS-era) Orion government that was really in bed with the hypercorps.
By contrast, the OSA has not had that revolution yet.
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I didn't say we should do that. In fact I said we can't do that, and neither can we do the more tame stuff you want.
pheonix89
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Wow.
Holy shit.
Looks like the OSA does not meaningfully exist as a sovereign state.
When private entities have DOUBLE the military power as a the government that allegedly governs them, that government isn't.
So much for the Licori and Laio violating OSA sovereignty. Can't violate a thing that doesn't exist.
Holy shit.
Looks like the OSA does not meaningfully exist as a sovereign state.
When private entities have DOUBLE the military power as a the government that allegedly governs them, that government isn't.
So much for the Licori and Laio violating OSA sovereignty. Can't violate a thing that doesn't exist.
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I'm not sure that they will be able to force OSA ships into battle without targeting planets or other important point targets (shipyards, corporate HQ), because the OSA central fleet is so weak and the coroporations presumably operating under a raiding doctrine. I doubt the Corps will accept a decisive battle unless absolutely forced to, basically. The "Plus, their fleets are already based on raiding" was about the Corps.
Yeah, a short war this won't be. Just a lot of Licori versus Corp skirmishing and raids while the OSA government and Laio hold their stuff back and wait for an opening.
KnightDisciple
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Sure, and that would seem more natural (from what I can tell) for the OSA. I'm just not a fan of this idea tha we don't "need" to "just" stop this war (there's a lot of debate one way or the other on how to handle this SNAFU), but also force their society to completely transform on an aspect that isn't "literal slavery".
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Also, my initial reaction to this whole mess was "have the OSA nationalize the corps", and expecting that that would happen if war broke out, but given the new data, that's flat-out impossible. You can't nationalize an organization with more guns than you have.
Which means that in my opinion, one of the "best" ways for the Federation to intervene here would be Syndicate 2.0, and help the OSA nationalize the Corps ships (probably all of them, while there could be Corps that could be trusted to explore the galaxy, these seem to definitely not be those, at least not without a lot of effort).
Which means that in my opinion, one of the "best" ways for the Federation to intervene here would be Syndicate 2.0, and help the OSA nationalize the Corps ships (probably all of them, while there could be Corps that could be trusted to explore the galaxy, these seem to definitely not be those, at least not without a lot of effort).
Or we might be over-thinking this, and a lot of Klingon crews who hadn't had their fill of war went rogue and responded to 'advertisements' placed by the Ikeigenite corps. With the Klingon Imperial government figuring it's better to have these pro-war agitators off making their mess in someone else's garden.
Thors_Alumni
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The federation would have to know that they existed and where to find them first.
I genuinely find Rigellian and Orion economics to be at best a somewhat distasteful and potentially troubling eccentricity that will likely go away in the fullness of time, and at worst a minor but long-term threat to both the character of the Federation and the well-being of its citizens. I know this may not be a popular stance, but that's how I see it. And no, conquering them and obliterating and replacing their economy isn't the answer, but capitalism has no place long term in an even weakly post-scarcity society as anything beyond a particularly eccentric take on larping, and going back to (or unnecessarily holding on to!) the bad old days of starving if you don't sell your labor power to whoever claims to own the means of production is very much less than ideal. It is my hope that close contact with the rest of the federation and the eventual widespread adoption of better replicators will go a long way to addressing this without any other steps being needed, but it remains a problem to be addressed from my perspective.
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We don't need to completely transform their society, we need to stop the piracy to get rid of the root cause of the war. Which means we need to get the government to take control of the corps legally and factually, as their government. This doesn't need to be going full communist, just some proper legal regulation and the government taking over most of all those ships so it can have monopoly of force.
Except the Corps have way more guns than the government and aren't shy about using them, so it was always going to come down to war.
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