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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Anime_Fan35 said:
Crap that's a good point. We should probably think about putting a few ships between the Klingons and Romulans to make sure they don't try anything cute.

Somehow I don't think that's going to work Not after @OneirosTheWriter said that the Breen were still going to attack the Romulans.
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They were still going to attack the Romulans after they lost surprise. Not necessarily after the UFP deals in too.

The Romulans are severely weakened. We're NOT. The Breen could reasonably think they can take the Romulans, if they think they can take the Romulans reinforced by a UFP fleetball they're nuts.
 
Anime_Fan35 said:
Somehow I don't think that's going to work Not after @OneirosTheWriter said that the Breen were still going to attack the Romulans.
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If we send a warfleet to Breen space, they would have to retreat and hunker up. Or split their focus between two fronts against great powers, and comit suicide by stupidity.

Which we could kinda sorta pretend to do by sending a substantial TF to diplo, research, and protect the best spacewhales ever. If we do that, they also have to take into consideration that the Dreamers, hundreds of frigate to cruiser sized space monsters, might help us in backstabbing them while they are busy with the Romulans.
 
pheonix89 said:
They were still going to attack the Romulans after they lost surprise. Not necessarily after the UFP deals in too.

The Romulans are severely weakened. We're NOT. The Breen could reasonably think they can take the Romulans, if they think they can take the Romulans reinforced by a UFP fleetball they're nuts.
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The problem is that our xenopsych doesn't have a good profile on the Breen enough to predict what they're going to do. Their surprise attack paints them as pragmatic...but then they kept going after losing the element of surprise, which is a major gamble. If they're too deep in the sunk cost fallacy, dealing in will commit us to a potentially costly war without necessarily having a clear endpoint.
 
Glassware said:
The problem is that our xenopsych doesn't have a good profile on the Breen enough to predict what they're going to do. Their surprise attack paints them as pragmatic...but then they kept going after losing the element of surprise, which is a major gamble. If they're too deep in the sunk cost fallacy, dealing in will commit us to a potentially costly war without necessarily having a clear endpoint.
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Only if they're freaking nuts.

And there's a very clear endpoint.

Breen Fleet: Dead.

It's a defensive war, those always have a clear endpoint.
 
pheonix89 said:
Only if they're freaking nuts.

And there's a very clear endpoint.

Breen Fleet: Dead.

It's a defensive war, those always have a clear endpoint.
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Unfortunately I don't think we have the ability to persuade any of the major factions that are voting "no" that war here would be most effective. For Development, going to war would distract from internal affairs, the Romulans don't trade enough for the Mercantilists to make it worth it...honestly? Our best bet might be the Pacifists, who are idealists with a strong base in the Vulcans, but we've got a Betazoid president, not a Vulcan one. If we had the time to put a detailed strategy together to minimize casualties maybe, but Okaar strikes me as being naturally cautious about rapid-response large-scale fleet actions and casualty-averse without a sound plan.
 
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I'm also curious about the reason behind the sneak attack. The Breen are supposed to be very very prickly Isolationists. DId the HoH feed them faulty intel which set them off, and plan on that peacekeeping force in a year or so? Did the Tal Shiar make a blunder? Or are they simply looking to weaken an uncomfortably close but normally strong neighbor? Figuring out which of these it is should help us stop the war.
 
Glassware said:
Unfortunately I don't think we have the ability to persuade any of the major factions that are voting "no" that war here would be most effective. For Development, going to war would distract from internal affairs, the Romulans don't trade enough for the Mercantilists to make it worth it...honestly? Our best bet might be the Pacifists, who are idealists with a strong base in the Vulcans, but we've got a Betazoid president, not a Vulcan one.
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You are doing those factions grave disservice. They are Federation ideals first, their preferred way to fulfill them second.
 
Glassware said:
The problem is that our xenopsych doesn't have a good profile on the Breen enough to predict what they're going to do. Their surprise attack paints them as pragmatic...but then they kept going after losing the element of surprise, which is a major gamble. If they're too deep in the sunk cost fallacy, dealing in will commit us to a potentially costly war without necessarily having a clear endpoint.
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It appears to be a gamble from our point of view, but we don't know what information the Breen have that we don't. They probably have a better idea of their own chances than we do.
 
Random Member said:
It appears to be a gamble from our point of view, but we don't know what information the Breen have that we don't. They probably have a better idea of their own chances than we do.
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I tend to think it's simply that the Romulans will never be weaker than they are right now. The Breen held off a year from the end of the war because there was a chance the Romulans would slip into civil war, but they realize that's not happening. So it's attack now or miss their opportunity.

Of course, why they need to hit the Romulans at all is an open question.
 
I think I just figured out how to deniably proxy-war.

The Romulans need cargo ships. The Yrillians have a very large number of them, run by independent crews looking for profit and adventure. We broker some kind of deal, and word it so that the goal of helping the war effort is clear.

Once they are in Romulan space, if some of them get a bit too enthusiastic (as Yrillian work gangs inclined towards adventure in space often do), it's no one's fault in particular, and almost to be expected if the Romulans start offering letters of marque, given the relevant cultural factors.

We could even see what we can do to increase survivability for these brave spacers risking a war zone to keep the Romulan people fed. They certainly shouldn't be showing up in ex-Starfleet hulls, but there may be some obsolete or even impounded foreign hulls we can auction off that are a bit tougher than what they might otherwise have access to, and we could revisit those self-contained weapon pods for freighters that we were working on during the biophage war. I'm pretty sure there's even a couple of mark 1 Klingon BoPs floating around taken from renegades and pirates over the years...

All that aside, I rather like the idea of using a Dreamer task force to protect them from reprisals, keep an eye on things out that way and force the Breen to keep forces back from the front. It's a really nice N-birds with one stone solution, and justifies a task force most of us want but haven't been able to make fit with everything else we need to be doing.
 
You know, we will have a ton of last generation ships available once we federalize. What if we offered to trade a bunch of Constellations for cloaking technology? That's never gone wrong for the Romulans before, right?
 
brmj said:
I think I just figured out how to deniably proxy-war.

The Romulans need cargo ships. The Yrillians have a very large number of them, run by independent crews looking for profit and adventure. We broker some kind of deal, and word it so that the goal of helping the war effort is clear.

Once they are in Romulan space, if some of them get a bit too enthusiastic (as Yrillian work gangs inclined towards adventure in space often do), it's no one's fault in particular, and almost to be expected if the Romulans start offering letters of marque, given the relevant cultural factors.

We could even see what we can do to increase survivability for these brave spacers risking a war zone to keep the Romulan people fed. They certainly shouldn't be showing up in ex-Starfleet hulls, but there may be some obsolete or even impounded foreign hulls we can auction off that are a bit tougher than what they might otherwise have access to, and we could revisit those self-contained weapon pods for freighters that we were working on during the biophage war. I'm pretty sure there's even a couple of mark 1 Klingon BoPs floating around taken from renegades and pirates over the years...

All that aside, I rather like the idea of using a Dreamer task force to protect them from reprisals, keep an eye on things out that way and force the Breen to keep forces back from the front. It's a really nice N-birds with one stone solution, and justifies a task force most of us want but haven't been able to make fit with everything else we need to be doing.
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There's another people around in ships that may like to play mercenary. Hishmeri. Of course, that's not exactly Federation-like.
 
brmj said:
I think I just figured out how to deniably proxy-war.

The Romulans need cargo ships. The Yrillians have a very large number of them, run by independent crews looking for profit and adventure. We broker some kind of deal, and word it so that the goal of helping the war effort is clear.

Once they are in Romulan space, if some of them get a bit too enthusiastic (as Yrillian work gangs inclined towards adventure in space often do), it's no one's fault in particular, and almost to be expected if the Romulans start offering letters of marque, given the relevant cultural factors.

We could even see what we can do to increase survivability for these brave spacers risking a war zone to keep the Romulan people fed. They certainly shouldn't be showing up in ex-Starfleet hulls, but there may be some obsolete or even impounded foreign hulls we can auction off that are a bit tougher than what they might otherwise have access to, and we could revisit those self-contained weapon pods for freighters that we were working on during the biophage war. I'm pretty sure there's even a couple of mark 1 Klingon BoPs floating around taken from renegades and pirates over the years...
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This reminds me of that time we tried to implement Yrillian freighters to deal with our own issues. The problem is that every Yrillian work gang needs to be carefully vetted because they have a slight tendency to turn into ruthless pirates if nobody is looking. If any of them break the deal and take advantage to run amok in Romulan space, it reflects badly on us in turn.
 
MTB said:
There's another people around in ships that may like to play mercenary. Hishmeri. Of course, that's not exactly Federation-like.
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The Hishmeri are more opportunistic raiders than warriors. They try to avoid a fair fight, and they are also highly dependent on their ships and so losses are far more devestating for them than planetary polities. Plus, we'd have to let them cross the entire Federation to get to the fighting, which would be a tough sell considering they were raiding us just six months ago.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Right now the Pacifists are basically asking us about the methods we can use to run a proxy war. Because that's what we'll be responsible for even if all we do is lend the Romulans cargo ships. So I have no sympathy for Stesk frowning at us here.
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They are not? It would be a proxy war if we were supporting Romulans as a way to fight the Breen. What we are doing is protecting innocents, by helping the Romulans protect them. Not supporting an invasion into Breen space.
 
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Glassware said:
This reminds me of that time we tried to implement Yrillian freighters to deal with our own issues. The problem is that every Yrillian work gang needs to be carefully vetted because they have a slight tendency to turn into ruthless pirates if nobody is looking. If any of them break the deal and take advantage to run amok in Romulan space, it reflects badly on us in turn.
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Point, but I think it's manageable. If we are pointing them pretty heavily at the Breen and the Romulans are providing them continuing logistical support, with basing, repair, supplies, and some amount of pay or promised future pay for cargo transport, anyone who wants to do that kind of thing has an obvious target other than the hand that is feeding them. Besides, privateers have an enourmous amount of cultural currency for them for historical reasons, and if the Romulans were to offer a similar scheme it might get heavily romanticized.
 
Enerael said:
They are not? It would be proxy war if we were supporting Romulans as a way to fight the Breen. What we are doing is protecting innocents, by helping the Romulans protect them. Not supporting an invasion into Breen space.
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I vehemently disagree with your definitions. The Pacifists don't want to fight the Breen directly, so they are asking us how we can combat them by proxy. The reasoning doesn't really matter, the fact that someone is fighting the Breen with our support but without our direct involvement does. That is what a proxy war means, it doesn't matter if it's to defend against aggression or protect innocents or to install a puppet ruler.

Besides, if the Pacifists really wanted to protect the innocents in the RSE, they should deploy a force to deter aggression.
 
I think, if Commander Starfleet was persuasive enough, we could actually persuade the Pacifists that the best way to stop the war cold would be an in-force deployment. And even if they attack after that, it'll greatly minimize the damage from the war.

If we heavily reinforce the Romulans, the Breen either back down or get crushed. Even in a Breen get crushed scenario we'd have cut the casualties from the war by OOM compared to if the Breen start trying to take and hold systems. Casualties in fleet actions are nothing compared to what happens when serious occupation starts.

Talking went right out the window when the Breen tried to kill Courageous for being in the wrong part of neutral space. Can't send diplomats without sending enough gun to see off a substantial Breen battle group.
 
I agree that we have enough options that we're blocked by needing to know more about what the RSE needs.
  • We could offer shipbuilding resources or engineering teams to help them build resource-gathering colonies, but that's not useful if they're constrained by shipyards instead of materials.
  • We could offer auxiliaries so they can focus on building warships, but that's not useful if they're constrained by resources instead of shipyards.
  • We could offer to police the Romulan-Klingon border, which should be useful, but I still don't know if we can guarantee they have all that much materiel there.
Policing the Romulan-Klingon border might let the Klingons free up some ships from their side. What would they do with those ships? It sounds like they might weigh in on the Gorn/Ittick-Ka situation; do we know how they'd move, and if so, do we like that outcome? Is there a way we could negotiate with the Klingons to change their intervention so it better suits our goals rimward?
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
I vehemently disagree with your definitions. The Pacifists don't want to fight the Breen directly, so they are asking us how we can combat them by proxy. The reasoning doesn't really matter, the fact that someone is fighting the Breen with our support but without our direct involvement does. That is what a proxy war means, it doesn't matter if it's to defend against aggression or protect innocents or to install a puppet ruler.

Besides, if the Pacifists really wanted to protect the innocents in the RSE, they should deploy a force to deter aggression.
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Wikipedia definition of a Proxy war (other sources didn't seem to disagree):

A proxy war is an armed conflict between two states or non-state actors which act on the instigation or on behalf of other parties that are not directly involved in the hostilities.[1]​ In order for a conflict to be considered a proxy war, there must be a direct, long-term relationship between external actors and the belligerents involved.[2]​ The aforementioned relationship usually takes the form of funding, military training, arms, or other forms of material assistance which assist a belligerent party in sustaining its war effort.[2]​

Pretty sure that doesn't fit what we have here.

Also, while most of the council believes war to not be the best solution, deploying a force to deter aggression remains an option I think? Just no declaration of war, state of emergency, or war footing at this time.
 
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pheonix89 said:
I think, if Commander Starfleet was persuasive enough, we could actually persuade the Pacifists that the best way to stop the war cold would be an in-force deployment. And even if they attack after that, it'll greatly minimize the damage from the war.

If we heavily reinforce the Romulans, the Breen either back down or get crushed. Even in a Breen get crushed scenario we'd have cut the casualties from the war by OOM compared to if the Breen start trying to take and hold systems. Casualties in fleet actions are nothing compared to what happens when serious occupation starts.

Talking went right out the window when the Breen tried to kill Courageous for being in the wrong part of neutral space. Can't send diplomats without sending enough gun to see off a substantial Breen battle group.
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That's a good point. The majority of the Breen fleet right now is stuck in in hostile territory and we have a diplomatic task force in that region that could do horrifyingly effective double-duty as a battlegroup. The chance to reduce the damage the Breen can do by attacking other powers through the use of force will never be better. But I just don't know if Okaar would go for that-is there a red line she won't cross, ideologically, that says "no war unless the Federation is directly threatened with invasion?" We're not allies with the Romulans after all, just not enemies; going in on their side would send an interesting message to the rest of the quadrant.
 
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