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- He/Him
A crucial distinction!
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
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- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
The deal is fine. Some of us apparently can't see the forest for the trees.
I remember debating what a peace with Cardassia would look like several thousand pages ago. The fact is, their society and government is based on two pillars: the sociological construct of service to the state (with the implication that the current military state is the ideal worth their service), and the xenopsychological idea that the dominant party sets the terms. We obtained the negotiating position we had by beating them handily and repeatedly in the GBZ pocket war, and now the Pacifists are after the Cardassian state too.
In order to obtain a peace with Cardassia, we'd force a negotiation from an advantageous position. I think we certainly could have demanded to keep 26 Enio, the Dorsata colony sites, and maybe then sold colony sites for a portion of the proceeds as, well, I'd say tax, but it's more like wergild. But that would have left us in an untenable position to keep a lasting peace. We'd have maybe 10-15 years before another border war, or worse.
The Council and the Pacifists in particular are thinking beyond immediate peace. The Pacifists want a treaty that is solid, smooths over resentments, yet also brooks no true weakness. And they want to use that treaty and the failure of the Cardassian military apparatus to erode and influence the Cardassian definition of "strong state worth serving". The point they're making is to cut military influence out of Cardassian foreign affairs.The Pacifists, or at least some of them, see that the only way forward to is to reframe how the Cardassians interact and are allowed to interact with the Federation. If the majority of interaction is through phasers and torpedoes and even angry shouting on hails, then we will see a war within two decades. If the majority of interaction is through negotiation, the Cardassian military apparatus and the idea of getting what they want militarily takes blow after blow.
This isn't an approach that would work if we had traded successes. But we ran right over the Cardassians from Ghosts and Whispers to the Sydraxian affair to every GBZ flashpoint even up to preventing them from taking back Enio. Their closest successes were Celos and Bajor, and the Treaty of Celos was an obvious flop in hindsight to Cardassian goals, while Bajor was only tangentially related to the Federation.
So basically, what this treaty does is force the Cardassian military to eat crow, after a decade and a half of constantly eating crow. That's what the Pacifists are after here, and I would go so far as to say that after ending the war, it's the primary goal. If we hadn't won so hard, we wouldn't have the option of root beering them like this, we'd have to wave our big stick menacingly and settle for a militarized border about the same as the one we see today. But we did, so the Cardassians know they have no military chance to influence the border using their fleet.
I think it's a bit of a gamble very dependent on what work we do after the ink dries on the treaty, but I do agree with the Pacifists that giving up a little territory that the Cardies know they were completely unable to take costs us little and that the right approach to long-term peace is slow reformation of the Cardassian state.
I remember debating what a peace with Cardassia would look like several thousand pages ago. The fact is, their society and government is based on two pillars: the sociological construct of service to the state (with the implication that the current military state is the ideal worth their service), and the xenopsychological idea that the dominant party sets the terms. We obtained the negotiating position we had by beating them handily and repeatedly in the GBZ pocket war, and now the Pacifists are after the Cardassian state too.
In order to obtain a peace with Cardassia, we'd force a negotiation from an advantageous position. I think we certainly could have demanded to keep 26 Enio, the Dorsata colony sites, and maybe then sold colony sites for a portion of the proceeds as, well, I'd say tax, but it's more like wergild. But that would have left us in an untenable position to keep a lasting peace. We'd have maybe 10-15 years before another border war, or worse.
The Council and the Pacifists in particular are thinking beyond immediate peace. The Pacifists want a treaty that is solid, smooths over resentments, yet also brooks no true weakness. And they want to use that treaty and the failure of the Cardassian military apparatus to erode and influence the Cardassian definition of "strong state worth serving". The point they're making is to cut military influence out of Cardassian foreign affairs.The Pacifists, or at least some of them, see that the only way forward to is to reframe how the Cardassians interact and are allowed to interact with the Federation. If the majority of interaction is through phasers and torpedoes and even angry shouting on hails, then we will see a war within two decades. If the majority of interaction is through negotiation, the Cardassian military apparatus and the idea of getting what they want militarily takes blow after blow.
This isn't an approach that would work if we had traded successes. But we ran right over the Cardassians from Ghosts and Whispers to the Sydraxian affair to every GBZ flashpoint even up to preventing them from taking back Enio. Their closest successes were Celos and Bajor, and the Treaty of Celos was an obvious flop in hindsight to Cardassian goals, while Bajor was only tangentially related to the Federation.
So basically, what this treaty does is force the Cardassian military to eat crow, after a decade and a half of constantly eating crow. That's what the Pacifists are after here, and I would go so far as to say that after ending the war, it's the primary goal. If we hadn't won so hard, we wouldn't have the option of root beering them like this, we'd have to wave our big stick menacingly and settle for a militarized border about the same as the one we see today. But we did, so the Cardassians know they have no military chance to influence the border using their fleet.
I think it's a bit of a gamble very dependent on what work we do after the ink dries on the treaty, but I do agree with the Pacifists that giving up a little territory that the Cardies know they were completely unable to take costs us little and that the right approach to long-term peace is slow reformation of the Cardassian state.
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lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
@OneirosTheWriter, the current Themis economic concessions are 50br/50sr per year, not 25br/25sr.
1) Is the Themis access toll of 50br/50sr per annum completely nullified, or has it just been reduced to 25br/25sr?
2) Do these mid-year changes apply for this year's annual income to be applied at EOY?
So the DMZ has some significant connotations in 21st century Earth, where North and South Korea are still technically at war with each other, and the DMZ is really a no-man's land.
But a "Demilitarized Zone" technically speaking is just a neutral area that doesn't allow militarization. That doesn't necessarily preclude colony development, especially mining colony development, for either side since those can be considered civilian colonies. It would just require truly neutral colonies or diplomatic territorial wrangling. And obviously they would be risky as heck.
Can you confirm whether all colony sites with the exception of Apruzza in the DMZ are off limits to colonization/mining for both sides or not?
Other corrections, that may not matter with the GBZ winding down anyway:
This is a Renaissance, not a Centaur-A.
This is still missing the Riala-A CAS Valaia.
edit: also nice to see the redundant "Member World Assets in Sector" section removed.
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NHO
Dumb is a state of existence
- Location
- ᓚᘏᗢ
I hope they will feel more secure with us being one of their border.
Friends tell friends where they are deficient and listen to valid critique themselves.
I don't feel the need to enforce philosophy too much on them. They are a lot less expansive than we are, and they are a lot more defensive than we are, and I find that fine.
They are our somewhat-eccentric neighbor, and they are their somewhat eccentric neighbor, we exchanged power tools, time to swap some recipes and let children to play in each other's gardens?
Also, time for grand barbecue for whole street.
As in, where we try to mediate peace between Klingons and Romulans, invite ISC, Cardassian and even Horizon observers, beyond normal spread of gentlebeings expected in that event.
ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
[jk] Send the President a thank you fruit basket for getting Gabrial settled. Pick some extra tasty and exotic fruit.
Having this settled is a big forking deal. SR and colony sites are nice, but we are not loosing any people or members. Our relationship with them is advancing as we are getting them used to resolving things with us by talking, and that is a big step.
Having this settled is a big forking deal. SR and colony sites are nice, but we are not loosing any people or members. Our relationship with them is advancing as we are getting them used to resolving things with us by talking, and that is a big step.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
Not at this moment. Was basically the work of two or three days in moments of free time. (Right now that same time is being devoted to purging an old BattleTech idea out.)
- Location
- alphen aan den rijn
now maybe we can focus on getting that center closed up and the races on the border too join
while doing that we can smile and shake hands with cardasia while dealing with other problems
while doing that we can smile and shake hands with cardasia while dealing with other problems
I'm a little baffled by all the salt regarding the GBZ deal as well. Are people just hating on the idea of a peace treaty or DMZ because of TNG/DS9 on principle?
Did people look at the previous map for the GBZ and arbitrarily decided that all the black spaces on the map that isn't Ashalla-claimed already are destined to be ours by reasons of...manifest destiny or something? Do we need a gentle reminder that this isn't an Empire quest and our goal is not to conquer all the non-blue spaces on the map?
Also, like, when the vote was given to us on what priorities we wanted out of the deal, did anyone vote for keeping all of Dorsata and Enio? Anyone? Bueller?
I'm likewise baffled by people complaining about how the areas we got near the top of the GBZ map don't count because we'll need to split them, like 50/50 or something, with the ISC. Please remember the ISC is not an expansionist polity. Their growth is something like 1 planet per couple of decades. They're not going to be demanding a bunch of territory from us.
Did people look at the previous map for the GBZ and arbitrarily decided that all the black spaces on the map that isn't Ashalla-claimed already are destined to be ours by reasons of...manifest destiny or something? Do we need a gentle reminder that this isn't an Empire quest and our goal is not to conquer all the non-blue spaces on the map?
Also, like, when the vote was given to us on what priorities we wanted out of the deal, did anyone vote for keeping all of Dorsata and Enio? Anyone? Bueller?
I'm likewise baffled by people complaining about how the areas we got near the top of the GBZ map don't count because we'll need to split them, like 50/50 or something, with the ISC. Please remember the ISC is not an expansionist polity. Their growth is something like 1 planet per couple of decades. They're not going to be demanding a bunch of territory from us.
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- Location
- alphen aan den rijn
i blaim power gamers
would i have like a better deal, sure
did i expect one, not really
also the ISC to me is pretty much a interl blackhole at this point
we barely know anything about them?? might want too fix that at some point
i`m happy with the peace. free`s up ships, calms things down overall and give`s us time to prep for if when the big war does come
more worried about what the hell is going to happen in the east at this point because i do not see that ending well for anyone in the scrap at all
would i have like a better deal, sure
did i expect one, not really
also the ISC to me is pretty much a interl blackhole at this point
we barely know anything about them?? might want too fix that at some point
i`m happy with the peace. free`s up ships, calms things down overall and give`s us time to prep for if when the big war does come
more worried about what the hell is going to happen in the east at this point because i do not see that ending well for anyone in the scrap at all
*cough* This Research turn we voted where to put a foreign analysis team. The ISC was one of the options.
You voted to put them on Horizon research instead.
Agreed, my biggest concern outside of total collapse is military ships going rouge and becoming pirates, because the last thing we need are cloaked pirates with bloodied or veteran crews
So much salt over Dorsata.
Built:
Apruzza III [33 Dorsata] (Apiata), 20sr/yr mine site
Apruzza IX [33 Dorsata] (Apiata), 30sr/yr mine site
2 Dorsata (Apiata) - 2x25br/yr mine
19 Dorsata II (Starfleet) - 10sr/yr mine site
Claimed:
(Apiata) 21 Dorsata IV - Asteroid Belt, 35br/yr mine site (Actively being built)
Unclaimed:
11 Dorsata - 25br/yr mine and 15br/yr mine available
30 Dorsata VI - 35br/yr mine site on 30 Dorsata VI (Class K colony option on 30 Dorsata III)
We did not lose any Built location. We even got special dispensation to keep Apruzza (one of the richest sr sources ever found - you can be sure the Pact wanted that out of our hands!)
If the Claimed system 21 Dorsata has been subsumed by the DMZ, then it is not spelt out here. Seeing as it is being built, but not listed I assume it is safe, pending GM statement.
If any of the UNCLAIMED systems are subsumed by the DMZ, who cares - they are UNCLAIMED.
Even if the only things we get to keep in Dorsata are the built locations, that is still 50 sr and 60 br (95 if 21 Dorsata is kept) flowing into Federation coffers - better than most other entire sectors.
Built:
Apruzza III [33 Dorsata] (Apiata), 20sr/yr mine site
Apruzza IX [33 Dorsata] (Apiata), 30sr/yr mine site
2 Dorsata (Apiata) - 2x25br/yr mine
19 Dorsata II (Starfleet) - 10sr/yr mine site
Claimed:
(Apiata) 21 Dorsata IV - Asteroid Belt, 35br/yr mine site (Actively being built)
Unclaimed:
11 Dorsata - 25br/yr mine and 15br/yr mine available
30 Dorsata VI - 35br/yr mine site on 30 Dorsata VI (Class K colony option on 30 Dorsata III)
We did not lose any Built location. We even got special dispensation to keep Apruzza (one of the richest sr sources ever found - you can be sure the Pact wanted that out of our hands!)
If the Claimed system 21 Dorsata has been subsumed by the DMZ, then it is not spelt out here. Seeing as it is being built, but not listed I assume it is safe, pending GM statement.
If any of the UNCLAIMED systems are subsumed by the DMZ, who cares - they are UNCLAIMED.
Even if the only things we get to keep in Dorsata are the built locations, that is still 50 sr and 60 br (95 if 21 Dorsata is kept) flowing into Federation coffers - better than most other entire sectors.
Samyr is pretty much finishing up her 5YM this Q4 anyway, so most the results of the inquiry isn't going to affect her tour of duty on the Sarek. Since captaining a 5YM is pretty much the capstone of a captain's career in Starfleet, I'm not sure if there is any meaningful punishment (to her) that we can hand out.
(I mean, I'm pretty sure Nash would've happily taken a demotion for the loss of the Enterprise because it'll just mean she gets another shot at the EC once she works her way back up from Commander.)
I suppose she is off the EC panel for Sarek's next tour, and she won't be getting a promotion to Commodore any time soon. She might end up getting a ground assignment somewhere, but that seems to be an awful waste of her skills.
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'The Cardassians' aren't nearly that monolithic a block. Oh, they'll want a Cardassian in charge, but most of them don't want it to be a Cardassian from a different faction. Fault lines to lean on there.
And while the remainder of the Pact might not be able to survive crossing swords with an undistracted Cardassian Union, all that is is a matter of timing about when one should employ the knife to the back.
We can afford to be patient and work on building the Fleet and the Federation further with the breathing space this affords us.
Selwyn
Tomorrow Will Come
- Location
- Mongolia
We already won anyway. The way I see it, this deal is much like what we have with Romulus. Except the Cardassians seem even more unstable than them, and they are due for collapse eventually, be it internal revolt or a change in policy. As long as we follow our rules, play nice, and prove that power doesn't need to enter the negotiating table, we win.
Sometimes you gotta let a pot simmer to get a good stew. Whinging over territory that is ultimately meaningless in the long term is short sighted.
Sometimes you gotta let a pot simmer to get a good stew. Whinging over territory that is ultimately meaningless in the long term is short sighted.
Or they could have simply waited another few months/years till the breakdown in the Klingon/Rom Area as well as the rising tensions with Horizon meant that the Federation and Starfleet would find it increasingly difficult to justify keeping a massive military force in Gabriel. Do you guys really find it that hard to believe that with practically all of the (north)-eastern border of the Federationslated to go up in flames and the continuing problems faced in the south the Federation, especially one dominated by diplomatic if not pacifist minded people/factions, might think it good idea to reduce tensions with the CU?
I can't wait for the next update to post and distract everyone from the SALT!
Welcome to six months ago. Congratulations on finally getting the joke!
Yeah, people seem to be forgetting that. I'd bet the Klingons and Horizon care a whole lot. The Romulans have too many things on fire to care.
Welcome to six months ago. Congratulations on finally getting the joke!
Yeah, people seem to be forgetting that. I'd bet the Klingons and Horizon care a whole lot. The Romulans have too many things on fire to care.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's winter (at least on the northern hemisphere). Somehow you have to fight snow and ice ...
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try beet juice. biodegradable.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Whether or not this would work depends heavily on how brittle isolinear storage media are, and exactly how they respond to damage. If they smashed into a few large pieces then almost everything might be repairable, but if the thing shattered into a mass of microfractures, there might be nothing left to save.
Also, isolinear computers are very rare and new technology, so there may simply not be high-fidelity data recovery hardware in existence to work on them. I suspect that hard drive data recovery wasn't a very reliable technology either, back in the first days of the magnetic hard drive.
I'm pretty sure that negotiation position was just a "line of cease-fire" to avoid any major international incidents from blowing up while we negotiated a permanent frontier.
Did we actually give up a single existing colony site? Or just sites we were kinda hoping to get ahold of eventually?
Oh for God's sake, we did NOT concede "everything." We did not give up a single colony we were exploiting, the Cardassians are keeping a significantly smaller share of the Gabriel Expanse than we are, and everything we gave up was so close to their starbase that in case of war it would have been on fire in a matter of days.
If they hadn't gained SOMETHING at the table, they would have just waited until the chaos on the Romulan-Klingon border forced us to move most of our modern ships over to the other side of our space, then kicked the shit out of us in real space and recovered all the territory they lost in ka'Sharren's offensive. The Cardassians are neither weak nor stupid, and there is no universal law that they can't beat us when they get an opening.
Theunderbolt
"Prepare for trouble..."
- Location
- USoA
It honestly only looks like a few people are really upset about it. I'm just glad we have the military getting shanked by the other factions of the CU and we can redistribute the fleet to brace for the fallout between the Romulan/Klingon war.
Assuming internal forces in the Pact doesn't move to start breaking things straight away, and we don't have rogue Apaita/Amarkia/Hawks movements trying to break things from our direction, the GBZ and CBZ should be quiet for a few years at least.
We are busy invalidating the TBZ by trying to steal the Dawair away.
The RBZ and KBZ are likely to need reinforcing as their war crashes everything and the local power of law is weakened, if it even still exists.
The HBZ is a political hot potato and we probably need to reinforce it.
Tellar (luck of the dice or something else?) will probably get an increased D value.
Any other sectors that are changing in importance at the moment?
We are busy invalidating the TBZ by trying to steal the Dawair away.
The RBZ and KBZ are likely to need reinforcing as their war crashes everything and the local power of law is weakened, if it even still exists.
The HBZ is a political hot potato and we probably need to reinforce it.
Tellar (luck of the dice or something else?) will probably get an increased D value.
Any other sectors that are changing in importance at the moment?