As I read more people commenting on this, this becomes more clear, in which case yes, it's going to vary a bit and we may want light explorers.

On the other hand, I'd like to have the options, especially since I'm not AT ALL sure what Oneiros is going to do for purposes of statting out TNG-era ship parts.

I'd rather not be in a situation where we're forced to adopt light explorers over cruisers by default on account of our cruiser research being 30-40 years behind our explorer research. Not when we are, as noted, super-duper flush with RP.

The generalized rundown on cruiser vs explorer is:
1. For equal frame size, presuming that both designs max out the frame, cruisers will always beat out explorers in stats. This is just the way our system works. The margin by which they beat out explorers depends but because of how the system is set up, cruiser have more subframe room in the cramped subframes (Tactical, Operations, and Hull) while explorers have less subframe room in those subframes. This will not change with research. It just is how we differentiate ship classes.
2. For equal frame size, presuming both designs are optimized similarly, cruisers will always beat out explorers in build time. The reduction in build time for a cruiser is approximately 0.5 years to 1 year for the exact same sized ship. However explorers that have been optimized to longer build times in exchange for lower crew costs may be even longer in build time. This will not change with research either. However, it's possible that build time reductions make this kind of screwy.
3. For equal frame size, presuming both designs are optimized similarly, explorers will always beat out cruisers in crew cost. Crew cost is dependent on frame and subframe modifiers and frame size. Explorers have far lower subframe modifiers for crew. This hasn't changed with any of the research tiers we've done so far.
4. For equal frame size, cruisers will usually beat explorers in SR expenditure. SR expenditure however does depend more on exact parts than on subframe modifier, and as such is more variable. And since part SR cost varies with tier and part availability, it is harder to predict. Generally speaking more modern parts have a worse SR cost. The BR:SR ratio becomes more slanted towards SR the more we want to implement newer parts. However, it seems likely that cruisers will hold their advantage in SR over explorers no matter what.
5. The "sweet spot" for explorer design is way above the weight for a light explorer. When we talk about the sweet spot for class design, we mean the point at which adding more parts suitable for that ship approaches unacceptable diminishing returns. A light explorer is going to use a 1800kt or maybe a 2100kt frame. At these frame sizes, the subframe size is the limiting factor, not diminishing returns on more parts, and the essential weight components of the ship take up a relatively higher percentage of the ship so there is less room for more parts.
6. The "sweet spot" for cruiser design is somewhere from 1500kt to 2000kt, in the range for a heavy cruiser. The more lenient cruiser subframes mean that we can approach diminishing returns with parts a little easier than on an explorer, and the essential components of the cruiser take up a relatively lower percentage of the ship.

As an aside, it seems like the sweet spot for frigate design is in the larger end of the frigate sizes, about 900kt to 1200kt.

What this produces is a strange paradigm where slightly smaller cruisers can approach the stats of optimized explorers that are slightly bigger. For example, we have a 7/7/6/7/7/7 light explorer design on the 1800kt frame optimized for crew saving with 3/3/3 crew cost, yes you read the right, 3/3/3. However, a cruiser on the 1500kt frame could be 7/7/6/7/7/5 with 3/5/4 crew cost and yet as you can see it is 300kt smaller.

The problem with cruisers, however, is that the crew factor is MASSIVE and it multiplies with the frame size. So on the lower end of ~1500kt, you might be lucky to have a 3/5/4 crew, and on the higher end towards 1800kt you'll be looking at 4/6/5 or so, and because the subframes have these huge enlisted cost modifiers it just can't be reduced much at all. This is a really big deal, and it's why we haven't liked cruisers much in the past, but if we're looking at our build sheet and we've fingered a big crew surplus? Then we should really consider the cruiser even if it has a 6-enlisted cost.

I should mention doctrine just to say I don't think doctrine is the most relevant consideration. Our doctrine bonuses for explorers aren't enough that we can justify a light explorer over a heavy cruiser on doctrine alone. -2C and 5pp are the big bonuses, but 5pp is quite small in the grand scheme of things and this project isn't going to eat too much combat cap in comparison to things like the Excelsior refit or the Ambassador.


I'll get together a few ship comparisons but it'll take me some time.
 
"Torpedo Charge" would be super-important if we were more confident in our frigates' firepower, but until the Centaur-Bs and Comets are out in greater numbers... well, our ships are still using Motion Picture era torpedo launchers, so maybe they shouldn't be charging with them. Torpedo Charge sounds like it would go well with the frigate modernization programs we have planned for this decade, but after, not before.

Torpedo Charge just makes critting more likely and cuts enemy evasion. I fail to see the relevance of the ship design using it because its a doctrine. Moreover, if we end up in a serious war we will be modernising all frigates with burst launchers anyway. I'd happily do a significant refit of the Miranda if the Pacifists wouldn't cockblock us and it will be the first thing we do if a general war suddenly starts anyway, given that there is literally no other way for us to quickly get a decent combat frigate out otherwise.

I'm not criticizing our past decisions. I simply think that as technology advances, we may decide we want the ability to build high performance ships on cruiser frames, and if we don't push that technology harder, the Renaissance is pretty much the end of the line.

IIRC we were set to have mostly T3 cruiser frames by the end of the decade anyway, if not close to it. It takes a significant tech difference for frames to be significant in stats and cost. 1 Tier is usually not enough to make a significant difference. If we're doing a 2320s cruiser design it would be nice to have maxxed out frames but we aren't going to be behind enough to matter anyway. Notice how neither SWB nor I are particularly fussed about subframe tech.

Also we were forced to model the Rennie as a frigate, just FYI.

And this bears on the question of whether or not we may some day want a two-megaton, low-crew, tonnage-efficient combat cruiser to fight the Borg and Dominion HOW, exactly?

... If you want a pure combatant that's low on crew you want the Defiant. Not a cruiser.

Ships come out as follows:

Frigates: Very good single purpose ships. Fastest to build. Tend to be crew cheap but vary widely on SR.
Cruisers: Generalists. Heavy on crew especially Enlisted. Cost less in SR and have a shorter build time than Explorers.
Explorers: Generalists. Crew cheap but SR expensive and tend to take longer to build. Also tend to be larger frames.
 
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Akira is BAE4LYFE, only thing that would sway me from it is if @Gravitas Hunt or @Ato (or other artists) updated it to be more baller
I like the Akira. It's one of the influences on my Kepler design (Sorry Chris!).

Regarding the Kepler design, though, I'm afraid I've run into some rather glaring issues with it, and I've kind of been putting off working on it because I might have to start all over again, unfortunately. Still nearly 2 in-game years till launch, right? End of 2323?
 
By the way, before the Research turn we're going to have the Intelligence Steering Committee. What are everyone's thoughts on reports?
 
I like the Akira. It's one of the influences on my Kepler design (Sorry Chris!).

Regarding the Kepler design, though, I'm afraid I've run into some rather glaring issues with it, and I've kind of been putting off working on it because I might have to start all over again, unfortunately. Still nearly 2 in-game years till launch, right? End of 2323?
I think you have one year, it just drew Crew this Q which happens one year before launch IIRC.
 
I'm torn on what we want regarding the Klingon-Romulan War. Any report there may not be very useful. Any report on Klingon or Romulan anything may not be useful unless it's a ship report. That brings us down to the Khelian from them.

Dawiar Diplomatic Posture? We're talking to them, it would be good to know and it's been 5 years.

We've never gotten a Fleet Strength for the Konen or Goshwanar and it's been nine years since we got a fleet report regarding the Dylaarians. We have minimal intel on ISC ships, Imelak ships, the Harmony's old-model tender, the Solace, or either of their Strike Corvette models. We have no intel on any possible Lecarre fleet which I bring up since it's been more than 9 years since last we checked on them as a non-fleet power and things can change in that time.

(time references via SWB's intelligence report list)
 
Major Power Intelligence Report by Longest Date
6y Romulan Shipyard Report (2315.Q4)
4y Cardassian Shipyard Report (2317.Q4)
4y Cardassian Logistics and Deployment Requirements (2317.Q4)
3y Romulan Diplomatic Posture (2318.Q4) IMPORTANT: Current events rendered useless.
3y Harmony of Horizon Fleet Strength (2318.Q4) Note: Partial
2y Harmony of Horizon Shipyard Report (2319.Q4)
2y Klingon Shipbuilding Report (2319.Q4)
2y Romulan Fleet Strength (2319.Q4)
2y Cardassian Diplomatic Posture (2319.Q4)
2y Cardassian Fleet Strength (2319.Q4)
2y Cardassian Shipbuilding Report (2319.Q4)
2y Cardassian GBZ Strength (2319.Q4) Note: Summary
1y Interstellar Commonwealth Diplomatic Posture (2320.Q4)
1y Harmony of Horizon Shipbuilding Report (2320.Q4)
1y Harmon of Horizon Diplomatic Posture (2320.Q4)
1y Klingon Diplomatic Posture (2320.Q4) IMPORTANT: Current events rendered useless.
1y Klingon Fleet Strength (2320.Q4)
1y Romulan Shipbuilding Report (2320.Q4) Note: Current events rendered inaccurate.
1y Other Faction GBZ Projects (2320.Q4)

Minor Power Intelligence Report by Longest Date
9y Konen Fleet Strength Report (Never)
9y Goshawnar Fleet Strength Report (Never)
9y Dylaarian Fleet Strength (2313.Q1)
8y Yrillian Fleet Strength (2313.Q4)
5y Yrillian Diplomatic Posture (2316.Q4)
5y Dawiar Diplomatic Posture (2316.Q4)
3y Dylaarian Diplomatic Posture (2318.Q4)
2y Konen GBZ Strength (2319.Q4) Note: Summary
2y Dylaarian GBZ Strength (2319.Q4) Note: Summary
2y Goshawnar GBZ Strength (2319.Q4) Note: Summary
2y Licori Diplomatic Posture (2319.Q4)
2y Imelak Diplomatic Posture (Never)
1y Imelak Fleet Strength Report (2320.Q4)
1y Hismeri Septs Diplomatic Posture (2320.Q4)

Unreported and Underreported Ship Designs by First Mention
6y ISC Pathfinder Capital Ship (2315.Q4)
6y ISC Guardian Cruiser (2315.Q4)
5y Harmony of Horizon Old Fleet Tender (2317.Q1)
5y Harmony of Horizon Virtuoso Strike Corvette (2317.Q1)
5y Harmony of Horizon Dancer Strike Corvette (2317.Q1)
4y Konen Banshee Frigate (2317.Q3) Note: have some stats.
4y Konen Whisperer Cruiser (2317.Q3) Note: have some stats.
4y Konen Silence Battleship (2317.Q3) Note: have some stats.
4y Cardassian Kaldar II (2317.Q4) Note: have some stats.
4y Romulan Khellian Heavy Warbird (2317.Q4)
4y Harmony of Horizon Liberator Battleship (2317.Q4) Note: have most but not all stats.
4y Harmony of Horizon Solace Battlecruiser (2318.Q2)
4y Harmony of Horizon Scientist Cruiser (2318.Q3) Note: have most but not all stats.
4y Harmony of Horizon Alert Public Safety Corvette (2318.Q4)
4y Dylaarian Voyager Support Cruiser (2318.Q2)
4y Goshawnar Aiele Frigate (2318.Q3) Note: have some stats.
4y Goshawnar Warhawk-type Skirmish Cruiser (2318.Q3) Note: have some stats.
2y Goshawnar Motherhen (unknown type) (2319.Q4)
2y Cardassian Kapit Courier Frigate (2319.Q4) Note: have estimate but not exact stats.
2y Cardassian Tolkor Battleship (2319.Q4) Note: have estimate but not exact stats.
1y Imelak Breeder Capital Ship (2320.Q4)
1y Imelak Host Capital Ship (2320.Q4) Note: no intel sources on this class at all.
1y Imelak Jockey Frigate (2320.Q4)
1y Imelak Hound Squadron (2320.Q4) Note: likely to be deployed as aggregate squadron
?y All Yrillian Ships (?)
?y All Dawiar Ships (?)

I would suggest re-ordering Klingon and Romulan diplomatic postures both. If nothing else it will order Intelligence to direct their efforts there, and we may even catch wind of what the new governments in both places are going to do. If we're lucky. Also the normal report on the war. Even if it ends, we still want to have a good picture of how.

Since we're currently luring the Dawiar, maybe Dawiar Diplomatic Posture?
Harmony Diplomatic Posture, Harmony Fleet Strength
Cardassian Shipyard maybe?
Khellian, Guardian, and/or Virtuoso?

I feel there are a small handful of mandatory reports (R Diplo, K Diplo, R-K War, H Diplo) and a lot of discretionary ones this intelligence period.
 
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Still going to push for an Ittick-Ka diplo posture or general status report. We haven't heard anything from them in years and I'm a bit concerned we're missing something big happening down there.
 
We could ask for an Ashalla Pact fleet strength report. The bigger the report the more inaccurate, of course, but it would give a rough idea what we think they could bring.

Also, it seems like a Cardassian Diplomatic Posture report might help with ongoing GBZ negotiations.

Can I get a commitment to getting an ISC ship report with our free report from this this year? We've been outright told that their diplomatic posture changes only very slowly and cautiously, and there's no point in asking every year.
 
We could ask for an Ashalla Pact fleet strength report. The bigger the report the more inaccurate, of course, but it would give a rough idea what we think they could bring.

Also, it seems like a Cardassian Diplomatic Posture report might help with ongoing GBZ negotiations.

Can I get a commitment to getting an ISC ship report with our free report from this this year? We've been outright told that their diplomatic posture changes only very slowly and cautiously, and there's no point in asking every year.
I might ask for the guardian cruiser. It makes up a ton of their ship strength.
 
On an entirely unrelated note, is Fire Kossan still chilling on the Courageous? I would have thought we might have heard something about her from Zara ka'Krazy.
 
The Amby's launch in Q2 don't they?
'Launch' is a nebulous term for ships constructed in zero-g and vaccum. Even more nebulous considering the fact that 'launching' a ship doesn't mean it's fully fitted out or equipped yet-Just ask the Enterprise-B.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that the Amby's were ready for Plugs Out tests last Q4. Q1, crew arrived and began to familiarize themselves with actual systems. Q2, formal all-up systems tests including full power impulse that will neccessitate leaving their berths for the first time. Q3, commissioning trials, including weapons tests, mock diplomatic events, medical relief drills, and full power to the warp core for a test of just how fast these beasts can push their engines. Presuming they pass all their tests with flying colors, both ships will be accepted for service in Q4, and head out on their first Five year missions.
 
RP isn't the limiting factor here, it's Tech Teams, which is a PP limitation. We literally can't throw more RP at the problem because we already are throwing as much as we possibly can.
To unpack a little subtext, what I mean is "we should spend SOME PP to ensure that we don't end up in a position of being unable to design good cruisers even though we want to, despite our bounty of RP."

On an entirely unrelated note, is Fire Kossan still chilling on the Courageous? I would have thought we might have heard something about her from Zara ka'Krazy.
I'd like that. Unfortunately, nobody took Fire and ran with her as an omake character.

'Launch' is a nebulous term for ships constructed in zero-g and vaccum. Even more nebulous considering the fact that 'launching' a ship doesn't mean it's fully fitted out or equipped yet-Just ask the Enterprise-B.
Enterprise:

"Or the body before that. Or the body before that."

"It's traditional, really. I'm almost disappointed that nothing's come up yet."
 
If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that the Amby's were ready for Plugs Out tests last Q4. Q1, crew arrived and began to familiarize themselves with actual systems. Q2, formal all-up systems tests including full power impulse that will neccessitate leaving their berths for the first time. Q3, commissioning trials, including weapons tests, mock diplomatic events, medical relief drills, and full power to the warp core for a test of just how fast these beasts can push their engines. Presuming they pass all their tests with flying colors, both ships will be accepted for service in Q4, and head out on their first Five year missions.
Hm... I'm not sure all the crew show up at the time a ship crew is officially being drawn. Especially if they are named characters that were previously serving on other ships before the official launch of the new ship. Like, Saavik was still serving as XO of the Sarek up until the S'Harien launched. Stol was captain of the Agile up til the Lakota launched. And so forth. I would guess that only personnel that weren't already on existing ship assignments would show up early to a new ship in the year before launch -- people previously on ground assignments, or the junior officers just coming out of the Academy, and the like.
 
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Hm... I'm not sure all the crew show up at the time a ship crew is officially being drawn. Especially if they are named characters that were previously serving on other ships before the official launch of the new ship. Like, Saavik was still serving as XO of the Sarek up until the S'Harien launched. Stol was captain of the Agile up til the Lakota launched. And so forth. I would guess that only personnel that weren't already on existing ship assignments would show up early to a new ship in the year before launch -- people previously on ground assignments, or the junior officers just coming out of the Academy, and the like.
I'm sure they don't. I have a feeling the XO is the one who is generally there from crew arrival, and the captains take over when they are selected or available. Practically speaking, it just makes sense, given when we usually select our captains.

That said, I am a little surprised we don't select our EC captains when crew is drawn. I don't know the actual naval procedure for it, but...
 
I'm sure they don't. I have a feeling the XO is the one who is generally there from crew arrival, and the captains take over when they are selected or available. Practically speaking, it just makes sense, given when we usually select our captains.

That said, I am a little surprised we don't select our EC captains when crew is drawn. I don't know the actual naval procedure for it, but...
I dunno, we don't really see this practice in canon either. I mean, Riker got picked up on the Ent-D's shakedown cruise. Nobody had tested the saucer separation before the pilot episode. They went through a bunch of Chief Engineers in TNG season one before eventually settling on Geordi.

I suppose it might be different for an experimental prototype of a class, for people to come in early and learn new systems. Otherwise, I presume that people still serving on other ships and getting actual experience in similar Starfleet systems is 'good enough' to carry over when they switch to a new ship.
 
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