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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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aceraptor said:
Wait, just how big is the Horizon? I haven't kept up with them. They are bigger than the Federation?
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Known claimed space and number of member species is smaller than us.
They have a navy of sufficient size that we would need to pull in member support in the event of a war, with 5MT(iirc) tenders carrying a bunch of short ranged nasty corvettes and a solid back bone of battleships and cruisers.

Intel tracking below in the spoiler for their navy
Harmony Fleet Strength (2318.Q4)
4 Sanctuary Fleet Tender
20 Old Fleet Tender
16 Liberator
~18+ Solace
~24+ Scientist
~34 to 60+ Virtuoso Strike Corvette
~48-72+ Dancer Strike Corvette and Alert Corvette combined

Harmony of Horizon Shipbuilding (2320.Q4)
3 Sanctuary Fleet Tender
6 Liberator
4 Scientist
2 Solace
12 Virtuoso
3 Alert
1 Hospital Ship
1 Civilian Research Cruiser
1 Passenger
1 Super-Freighter
6 Cargo Ship
4 Civilian Freighter

Forces on Rimward Border Detail (2318.Q2):
3rd Peacekeeping Directorate Fleet
~ 8 Capitals or Large Cruisers
~ 30 Virtuoso Strike Corvettes
Precinct 3, 6 of Public Safety Directorate
~ 6 Capitals or Large Cruisers
~ 25 Dancer-class and Alert-class Corvettes
1st, 5th Order, Science Directorate
~8 Large Cruisers

So they have something around 20+ Capitals/Cruisers and 50+ Corvettes close to the border with us.
We have (if front page is up to date) 1 old capital and 2 second line cruisers ...

Edit: Added the known ship stats below:
Capital Ships (Battleship):
Liberator ?-Now [495m, 1.9m t]
C7 S? H? L? P5 D5
Cost [Unknown], Crew [Unknown, 17 total crew units]
Old Fleet Tender ?-Now
Details Unknown
Sanctuary Fleet Tender ?-Now [891m, 5m t]
C8 S9 H6 L9 P13 D13
Cost [Unknown], Crew [Unknown, 33 total crew units]
Cruisers (Cruiser/Battlecruiser):
Solace ?-Now [1.6m t]
Details Unknown
Scientist ?-Now [405m, 1.6m t]
C2 S7 H4 L? P? D7 [Estimate C2 S7 H4 L6 P5 D7]
Cost [Unknown], Crew [Unknown, 12 total crew units][Estimate O-3 E-4 T-5]
Frigates (Corvette):
Virtuoso Strike Corvette ?-Now [500k t]
Details Unknown
Dancer Strike Corvette ?-Now []
Details Unknown
Alert Public Safety Corvette ?-Now []
Public safety corvette, likely patrol craft stats.
 
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Goat said:
Known claimed space and number of member species is smaller than us.
They have a navy of sufficient size that we would need to pull in member support in the event of a war, with 5MT(iirc) tenders carrying a bunch of short ranged nasty corvettes and a solid back bone of battleships and cruisers.

Intel tracking below in the spoiler for their navy
Harmony Fleet Strength (2318.Q4)
4 Sanctuary Fleet Tender
20 Old Fleet Tender
16 Liberator
~18+ Solace
~24+ Scientist
~34 to 60+ Virtuoso Strike Corvette
~48-72+ Dancer Strike Corvette and Alert Corvette combined

Harmony of Horizon Shipbuilding (2320.Q4)
3 Sanctuary Fleet Tender
6 Liberator
4 Scientist
2 Solace
12 Virtuoso
3 Alert
1 Hospital Ship
1 Civilian Research Cruiser
1 Passenger
1 Super-Freighter
6 Cargo Ship
4 Civilian Freighter

Forces on Rimward Border Detail (2318.Q2):
3rd Peacekeeping Directorate Fleet
~ 8 Capitals or Large Cruisers
~ 30 Virtuoso Strike Corvettes
Precinct 3, 6 of Public Safety Directorate
~ 6 Capitals or Large Cruisers
~ 25 Dancer-class and Alert-class Corvettes
1st, 5th Order, Science Directorate
~8 Large Cruisers

So they have something around 20+ Capitals/Cruisers and 50+ Corvettes close to the border with us.
We have (if front page is up to date) 1 old capital and 2 second line cruisers ...
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From memory, I think they might have an edge in tech level over us too. Given that's one of our hats, I think we're hoping to overtake them in the long run, though that may not be possible depending on how good their R&D is.
 
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MS-21H 'Hawke' said:
So every Starfleet Officer better be a God among men who can do anything and everything, to the point where Geordi/Scotty level engineering miracles are things that our initiates do in their sleep? We're all Sapient here, we falter and fall short, we have our foibles. Sometimes, it seems like the Federation Council doesn't understand that. We got reamed over shit the damned Cat people fucked up, and we lost men because of those idiots.
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Frankly? Yes, that is the expectation.

I'm not even being entirely facetious here; "But we've tried!" is literally not an excuse. I would know because I have a degree in (inter)national security and law, and one of the literally first things you're taught is that this is not an excuse unless you really, really want that early retirement.

People in position of high-level military and government authority are frankly expected to keep everything running at 100% regardless of circumstances, and in most cases they aren't even offered thanks for it. Realistically yes, it is impossible to keep things that way, just as it is realistically impossible for the person in charge to be aware of, and guide every single of their staff. But the expectations and responsibility are there, and in a democratic system these people will usually answer to people who frankly tend to have no notion of the picture behind the scenes. Most of the time, all they know is that we had a job, we had the resources, and we fucked up. What gives?

You can naturally push back, and I'm a bit surprised that we don't see Starfleet Command regularly making the argument "if we had the resources on hand/well, you did XY in spite of our advice...", but that's not actually going to remove the fact that we're answering to someone. Federation Council had given us a job; whenever something goes wrong, it's basic operating procedure to grill the Commander, Starfleet over it. This is even more true when in a society like Federation, where everyone and their cat can (and probably does) send tons of spam email to their councilors over how they could run Starfleet better, or more efficiently.

And frankly, the Council is generally pretty lenient with us. In an actual real world we'd not only be raked over the coals, but we'd not even be thanked for a job done right except when it's the election season. Meanwhile, the Council, does pretty regularly reward us for doing good work, and for going above and beyond our duty.

It's, you know, only when we end up in hot water over doing badly that questers complain about how Council gets on their case. Funny how that works, innit?
 
aceraptor said:
Haven't been following the discussions much, so, question: From what I've gathered the Klingons and the Romulans are basically both on the edge of total collapse? The Romulan shipyards have been devastated, and the Klingon economy is in tatters and there's knives coming out politically? And the Romulan leadership had a massive turnover?

So is the Federation going to have to deal with a massive failed state crisis of two peer powers on one end while preparing for the future war with the Cardassians (plus a plethora of other aggressive/expansionist powers) on the other end?
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Well, with Pacifists we might be able to wrangle aid missions to those two out of Council if need arises.
Alastor Mobius Toth said:
. This is even more true when in a society like Federation, where everyone and their cat can (and probably does) send tons of spam email to their councilors over how they could run Starfleet better, or more efficiently.
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Does it count as racist?
 
Nervos Belli said:
We're not concerned so much with territories as we are with limiting humanitarian disasters and avoiding spillover. Trying to ensure that the collapse of the Klingons doesn't lead to a bunch of disaffected captains turned pirate, or that some Gorn captain doesn't try to burn a planet as a threat, or that a slave rebellion in the RSE doesn't spiral out of control. Basically putting out a lot of little fires before they turn into an inferno that burns us just by virtue of proximity.
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One of those things is not like the other....

If a slave rebellion "spirals out of control" that would mean it has some odds of success.
 
If a slave rebellion started "spiraling out of control" I'd argue that we'd have a legitimate reason to intervene on their behalf.
 
Forgothrax said:
If a slave rebellion started "spiraling out of control" I'd argue that we'd have a legitimate reason to intervene on their behalf.
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Agreed.

If it's out of control, they've got warships and know how to use them and are holding off a rival (former) T1 power's fleet. Either we do nothing or intervene on behalf of the party with the clear moral high ground. We certainly don't aid slavers without even a realpolitik excuse.
 
Until such time as the Klingon/Romulan states actually collapse, we are probably bound by the treaties we have signed with them.

We don't know the exact wording and legal arguments.

They might require us to aid. They might deny us permission to the cross the border.

Up to the Council really to direct us on what happens there.
 
Prime DIrective also says that the Federation doesn't unilaterally interfere with the internal affairs of neighboring Warp Capable powers unless they ask
 
Hmm.

Klingon ambassador slaughters a Targ on the steps on the Council building.
'What is he doing?!?'
'It's in the treaty - it's a call for a civilian aid. If he was killing three Targs it would be a declaration of war.'

Romulan ambassador calmly hands a shipping manifest over.
Starfleet logistics note a sudden deluge of orders for moving supplies to Romulan space.
'What is this?!?'
'It's in the treaty - if they can sneak the requests this far into the system, it's a call for civilian aid.'
 
AKuz said:
Prime DIrective also says that the Federation doesn't unilaterally interfere with the internal affairs of neighboring Warp Capable powers unless they ask
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source please. I think I remember where I watched/Read/Heard this before but I don't know exactly when it was.
 
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