@Briefvoice, it is likely that one or more of the species that join the Federation in the next few years will have berths for small starships. However, them supplying more crew is less certain, so I think you're definitely right about the Academy expansion.

I don't think it's going to be nearly as much a fight as you suggest.

At most we'd just see the following
  • Request Start of Custom Cruiser project, receiving one-off boost of Research Points and go-ahead for some projects, 30pp
Increase in pp cost from 30 to something like 45-50pp. Also tbh there are a hell of a lot of ship classes in Starfleet, the designs listed on the front page doesn't even scratch the surface. I'd be very very surprised if the political side of the quest limits us to a mere two or three potential non-obsolete designs per class.
Remember that the list of options that are even on the menu is determined by what is politically possible. There is not, and realistically will not be for a long time, an option for "Request Start of Defiant project," precisely because no reasonable amount of persuasion would convince the Council to agree to such a thing. Even if we had the technology, we'd need an overarching threat like the Borg to justify building the ships.

Meanwhile, the reason there are so many ship classes in Star Trek is because the show designers kept saying "quick, we need a random disposable spaceship" and kitbashing together new models every few months for several decades. This is not an accurate or appropriate role model for us. Designing a new ship has very real costs, starting with the PP expenditure, continuing through the design process that ties up a tech team which COULD be working on something else, and including our OOC expenditure of time spent bickering over which of the many, many ship classes available we choose from.

If we keep designing new ships at anything like the frequency required to have the number of classes shown in the various Star Trek movies, shows, and secondary canon, we're sunk.

We'll have less PP to spend on infrastructure (which we need to have a strong fleet of any ship class).

We'll have inferior overall technology, because our best tech teams spent all their time designing specific new classes and not enough working on general equipment and weapons and tactics technology.

And we won't have a significantly stronger fleet over the long run as a result of all this, compared to limiting ourselves to, oh, 6-8 ship classes in service at any one time.

Moreover, we'll be spending so much time constantly debating and honing our ship designs that it will drown out other types of strategic decision important to our long term success.

As I said a few pages ago, custom shipbuilding is awesome, but we can't afford to let it drown the game. We need the self-discipline to take each design seriously, as something that will be the best we can do for a period of 10-20 in-game years. If people are talking about a cruiser to replace the Renaissance-class before we even draw the in-game blueprints for that class, then something has gone badly wrong with our design process.

A week or two ago people were very excited about the prospect of getting to start building Rennies and use them as a replacement for our aging TOS-era hulls. Now we've lost focus. If this goes on, it's not going to do good things for our outcome in the game.
 
Meanwhile, the reason there are so many ship classes in Star Trek is because the show designers kept saying "quick, we need a random disposable spaceship" and kitbashing together new models every few months for several decades. This is not an accurate or appropriate role model for us. Designing a new ship has very real costs, starting with the PP expenditure, continuing through the design process that ties up a tech team which COULD be working on something else, and including our OOC expenditure of time spent bickering over which of the many, many ship classes available we choose from.
Also kitbashing is really ugly artistically and I would rather not have it done >_>

Seriously who the hell thought this looked good at all?

^Whatever the hell is strapped to that Intrepid saucer doesn't belong on a Fed ship at all.

^This is hardly better. What are Turn-of-the-Century nacelles doing on a 24th Century design, especially considering the Intrepid exists as a design built for speed?

^This thing is literally an Excelsior model with the parts rearranged entirely wrong and Connie nacelles, how does it even function?
 
1. For the next ten years, we should stagger builds so only 1 Excelsior comes out per year and has to be crewed, with every 4th Excelsior going into the Exploration corps. That means we have no more than 4 Excelsior docks filled at any one time, which means big docks will be available for smaller ships or repairs. That's okay.
I got more by shunting them all to the Explorer Corp:

Not saying this is a good idea.

Yeah, we definitely need more people. In particular, I found I had to few enlisted and to many technicians.

:V

We should consider switching those back at some point.

^Whatever the hell is strapped to that Intrepid saucer doesn't belong on a Fed ship at all.
It's a maquis raider.

No they aren't built to the same scale, we have no idea how the Federation had a scaled up model of such a ship lying around in their yard.

^This is hardly better. What are Turn-of-the-Century nacelles doing on a 24th Century design, especially considering the Intrepid exists as a design built for speed?
Actually the whole secondary hull is from a constitution class.

Which should probably raise further questions.

^This thing is literally an Excelsior model with the parts rearranged entirely wrong and Connie nacelles, how does it even function?
There's a reason I statted it up with low presence.
 
Basically, every one of these random ships produced by kitbashing is referred to as a "class," but it doesn't make any kind of strategic sense to have so many classes, when many of them are clearly redundant and there's no evidence of evolving design logic.

It's sort of like how Star Wars's old EU wound up with like twenty "anonymous star destroyer type #17" classes or whatever... basically because comic book artists can't be bothered to draw a star destroyer consistently. So you end up with a lot of distorted ships and weird variations on the theme, most of which serve no obvious purpose that wouldn't be served equally well by just having one class of ship.

Ultimately, to paraphrase Clemenceau, it isn't about one ship class being better than another, for this or that purpose. It's that having one ship class is better than having two.

We only have about four or five distinct "missions" for a ship to occupy. The number of designs should be limited to the class we are phasing into each of these missions, and the class which we are phasing out of each mission.
 
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Have a tally!

Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 296 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.4
[X] Plan Ambassadors, Spies and Escorts
-[X] Daystorm Institute: Early 24th Century Computing Installations
-[X] Utopia Planitia Design Group: Turn of the Century Explorer design
-[X] San Francisco Fleet Yards: Turn of the Century Starship Frames
-[X] 40 Eridani A Shipyards: Turn of the Century Escort
-[X] Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: Early 24th Century Warp Cores
-[X] Tiger Team: Foreign Analysis - Cardassian Research
-[X] Admiral Lathriss: Lone Ranger Doctrine
-[X] Tellar Prime Academy of Mineral Science: ToC Mineral Technology
-[X] Spock: 2300s Xenopsychology
-[X] Starfleet Medical: Basic Turn of the Century Equipment
-[X] Starfleet Science Academy: Early 24th Century Message Security
-[X] Andorian Academy: Early 24th Century Deflector Shields
-[X] Vulcan Science Academy: Early 24th Century Long-Range Sensors
No. of Votes: 14
[X] Plan Ambassadors and Spies
-[X] Daystorm Institute: Early 24th Century Computing Installations
-[X] Utopia Planitia Design Group: Turn of the Century Explorer design
-[X] San Francisco Fleet Yards: Turn of the Century Starship Frames
-[X] 40 Eridani A Shipyards: Early 24th Century Warp Core Safety
-[X] Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: Early 24th Century Warp Cores
-[X] Tiger Team: Foreign Analysis - Cardassian Research
-[X] Admiral Lathriss: Lone Ranger Doctrine
-[X] Tellar Prime Academy of Mineral Science: ToC Mineral Technology
-[X] Spock: 2300s Xenopsychology
-[X] Starfleet Medical: Basic Turn of the Century Equipment
-[X] Starfleet Science Academy: Early 24th Century Message Security
-[X] Andorian Academy: Early 24th Century Deflector Shields
-[X] Vulcan Science Academy: Early 24th Century Long-Range Sensors
No. of Votes: 8
Total No. of Voters: 22
 
Crew is now the paramount resource limitation.

Hmm that build schedule indicates to me that we need to build more escorts, which are crew efficient. Or QM starts introducing more br/sr sinks, like pricing starbases or something.

Basically, every one of these random ships produced by kitbashing is referred to as a "class," but it doesn't make any kind of strategic sense to have so many classes, when many of them are clearly redundant and there's no evidence of evolving design logic.

It's sort of like how Star Wars's old EU wound up with like twenty "anonymous star destroyer type #17" classes or whatever... basically because comic book artists can't be bothered to draw a star destroyer consistently. So you end up with a lot of distorted ships and weird variations on the theme, most of which serve no obvious purpose that wouldn't be served equally well by just having one class of ship.

To be fair, the Star Wars universe doesn't have this pattern of single entity per nation responsible for designing all ships. There are all sorts of ship building companies on SW, while ST has simply one shipbuilder per nation (Federation just has Starfleet).

(Though there's little excuse for that Kuat company to have tens of Star Destroyer designs.)

Also, "kitbashing" is something that's often done in the middle of a war. Don't have time to properly design a vehicle? Let's strap some extra shit onto an existing one and push it out the door!
 
Okay, I have done some serious updates to my ship-building spreadsheet. As always, feel free to save your own copy and play with it. (Update list below.) In addition I took at hard look at our past EOY sheets and realized that I was being wildly optimistic about the amount of br/sr we'll get from Captain's Logs as well as the amount we spend on ship repairs. I have drastically reduced yearly "Event" income assumptions accordingly. In addition, taking into account past casualties I am assuming that we lose an average of O-.75, E-.75, T-.75 per year and Oex-.25, Eex-.25, and Tex-.25 per year. You can change that assumption as you please.

Conclusions
1. For the next ten years, we should stagger builds so only 1 Excelsior comes out per year and has to be crewed, with every 4th Excelsior going into the Exploration corps. That means we have no more than 4 Excelsior docks filled at any one time, which means big docks will be available for smaller ships or repairs. That's okay.
2. Cruisers will definitely need to take up a lot of slack for sector "anchor ships".
2. Crew is now the paramount resource limitation. It is critical we do an Academy Expansion next snakepit. Move it high up the priority list. Probably another one a few years after that.
3. A new small dock with be a "nice to have" in a few years but not a crisis priority.



Spreadsheet changes. (@Nix I know you're interested in these.)
1. All fields meant to be entered/altered by the user are now colored green for clarity.
2. On the Stats sheet you can now enter income changes year by year, both one-time changes and permanent changes in their respective columns. Be sure to make the change in the year in which it happens, and it will be added into the followed year's starting resources/start-of-year income. You can see I have an "assumptions" column where you can write why you think things will happen like they will. Income changes will continue to roll over to the following years; you need only note them once in the year in which the change happens.



With crew constraints it does mean we should have everything berths free to do refits. So there is that. Also we could retire a Miranda to crew a Centaur to make it stretch further.

One thing is the xenopsych tech that raises affiliate crew from .05 to .1 each which helps. But also I think it illustrates the importance of new members since they likely give more crew, even if most are less than the Amarki.
 
Also, "kitbashing" is something that's often done in the middle of a war. Don't have time to properly design a vehicle? Let's strap some extra shit onto an existing one and push it out the door!
...I can barely even comprehend the level of utter difficulty engineers would have to literally stick parts of multiple different ships together and make them function at all, especially with things like the electroplasma system and the warp core assembly, but really every basic system aboard a ship. And unless I'm mistaken, no real life navy has ever done so either, perhaps because their sailors have no love of drowning to death.
 
...I can barely even comprehend the level of utter difficulty engineers would have to literally stick parts of multiple different ships together and make them function at all, especially with things like the electroplasma system and the warp core assembly, but really every basic system aboard a ship. And unless I'm mistaken, no real life navy has ever done so either, perhaps because their sailors have no love of drowning to death.
The closest you'll see is various nations making tweaked versions of the same basic class to deal with resource and manufacturing bottlenecks.

Not a thing that the canon Federation's WTF-tier industrial complex would have to worry about.
 
...I can barely even comprehend the level of utter difficulty engineers would have to literally stick parts of multiple different ships together and make them function at all, especially with things like the electroplasma system and the warp core assembly, but really every basic system aboard a ship. And unless I'm mistaken, no real life navy has ever done so either, perhaps because their sailors have no love of drowning to death.

Pretty sure its something you do with armored land vehicles, not ships.
 
Armies do that. Navies don't.
Japan slapped fight decks on a number of ships, including Mogami and Ise.
...I can barely even comprehend the level of utter difficulty engineers would have to literally stick parts of multiple different ships together and make them function at all, especially with things like the electroplasma system and the warp core assembly, but really every basic system aboard a ship. And unless I'm mistaken, no real life navy has ever done so either, perhaps because their sailors have no love of drowning to death.
The British did and got HMS Zubian.
 
Japan slapped fight decks on a number of ships, including Mogami and Ise.

The British did and got HMS Zubian.
The Mogami class was designed to be able to do that. Ise was a massive refit.

The Zubian was just using the intact sections of two ships of the same class as parts to make one.

Not remotely the same as bashing segments of ships of differing classes and sizes together. Some of those kitbash models are like trying to shove bits from an Iowa, Nimitz and Gearing together.
 
Also, "kitbashing" is something that's often done in the middle of a war. Don't have time to properly design a vehicle? Let's strap some extra shit onto an existing one and push it out the door!
Thing is, that shouldn't normally be possible for starships. There shouldn't be dozens of Excelsior nacelles waiting to be strapped onto Galaxy saucers and dozens of Excelsior saucers waiting to be strapped onto Galaxy nacelles. And if there are, then shouldn't you default to assembling a bunch more Galaxies and Excelsiors?

Ships are long-lead items, the parts of which are built well in advance. As we're seeing here, we're allocating resources and building space to construct ships years ahead of time. Therefore, while real life kitbashing is common on things like tanks (where there may be a new gun but no new tank hull to put it in), it is very rare for ships. Ships are too complex to kitbash reliably in real life. The closest you ever come is ships designed to reuse guns or other components from another ship that was never finished, and that is itself rather rare.

No, that was them taking the front end of one ship of the same class, and the back of another ship of the same class, and stitching them together. That's not like kitbashing Connie nacelles onto an Excelsior saucer, that's like putting Connie nacelles on a Connie saucer.

In other words, it is exactly how things are supposed to work.
 
WW2 was a weird era. The shift of war paradigms to aircraft carriers caused plenty of late redesigns, and there seemed to be a new ship class every year, even in the same category. Aircraft too.

The closest thing we have to WW2 in Star Trek is the Borg to Dominion War era. But even though there also was a flurry of ship designs then, it still seemed less chaotic than WW2.

The only way I can see for Starfleet to have so many ship classes is if there were actually different branches all producing sometimes competing designs. But I'm pretty sure Starfleet R&D is not that decentralized.
 
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