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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Briefvoice said:
Back earlier than I thought.

From a mechanical point of view, I think you're making a mistake. Task forces aren't a single fleet that all flies together to engage the enemy using the fleet battle mechanics. They respond to Events, basically a mobile sector. Having eleven ships to respond to Events is basically a waste. You're going to have a bunch of ships sitting around, doing nothing every quarter.

If instead you split them up into two task forces then you have twice the number of Events, each of which still has more than adequate number of ships assigned to them.

In short, do not treat Task Force Burgundy as if it is assembling a fleet of ships to go out and flight a fleet battle together. Ships will act independently, as per usual.
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See, that's... kind of a weird counterintuitive feature of the Task Force mechanic if true.

It makes a LOT of sense for a task force to be dispersed responding to relevant events when you're talking about, say, the "Race the Empress to her mothballed fleet" task force, which has every reason to disperse.

It makes LESS sense for a task force to disperse when its job is something like "Hound the Empress's dreadnought." That is not a job that can be safely performed by a dispersed cloud of ships scattered widely over deep space. Because if our ships are caught too dispersed, said dreadnought will pounce upon our ships one by one, and string their bridge modules around its nacelles like so much costume jewelry.

I would expect that whether a Task Force needs to be large or small, and whether it is optimized for a fleet battle or for something else, would depend entirely on the exact nature of its mission. It would not be a simple matter of "don't design a task force as if it were supposed to fight a fleet battle together."

...

That said, @Ukrainian Ranger 's proposal of an Empress-hunting task force consisting of two Excelsiors, two Rialas, two Rennies, two Centaur-As, and an Apiata petit-queenship plus a pair of Stingers is probably a bit excessive.

Unless we have serious reason to expect Hayant to group up both dreadnoughts in the same place and keep them there... in which case it is quite possibly not enough.
 
Briefvoice said:
Back earlier than I thought.
From a mechanical point of view, I think you're making a mistake. Task forces aren't a single fleet that all flies together to engage the enemy using the fleet battle mechanics. They respond to Events, basically a mobile sector. Having eleven ships to respond to Events is basically a waste. You're going to have a bunch of ships sitting around, doing nothing every quarter.

If instead you split them up into two task forces then you have twice the number of Events, each of which still has more than adequate number of ships assigned to them.

In short, do not treat Task Force Burgundy as if it is assembling a fleet of ships to go out and flight a fleet battle together. Ships will act independently, as per usual.
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While sector events generate no matter how many ships are there (it is common sense, stuff happen independently from ships), we have no indications that it works in the same way for task forces. In fact I expect that amount of events is in some way proportional to how many ships are there (because ship try to engage, aka create events)

Also, Mission of Burgundy looks like one that can Escalate into a large battle using fleetbattle mechanic
 
I think the valuable point here is that we do need to be conscious of just exactly what a task force's mission might entail, and sometimes that is going to include pitched battles.
 
Night said:
Burgundy...kind of is exactly that, though. Their assignment is to offensively seek and destroy Eternal Empire forces via coordinated fleet actions against the drones and ultimately the dreadnoughts themselves.
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We've already seen logs for Task Force Burgundy, and that's not how it works. There's an event, ships roll to respond, and there's a limited amount of ships allowed to respond.

Sorry if it's counter-intuitive, but that's not a reason to assign 11 ships to respond to a single quarter's worth of Event. Ask the GMs if you don't believe me.

Ukrainian Ranger said:
While sector events generate no matter how many ships are there (it is common sense, stuff happen independently from ships), we have no indications that it works in the same way for task forces. In fact I expect that amount of events is in some way proportional to how many ships are there (because ship try to engage, aka create events)

Also, Mission of Burgundy looks like one that can Escalate into a large battle using fleetbattle mechanic
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We have already seen that what I said is exactly how it works for Task Forces. I do not beleive that shoving four extra ships into Task Force Burgundy is likely to improve the results at all. But again, ask the GMs if you want and let's see what they say.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Weren't we specifically told when the task force system was presented that the more ships in the force the more events?
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Well, for me this >
How many Task Forces can we create?

As many as you want. Just be aware that Task Forces with very few vessels will not be very effective in producing results in a short time period.

Simply put: more ships - more results.
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sounds like more ships = more events
 
It's actually sorta a middle ground. In certain circumstances you'll see TF Burgundy ships "stack up" like Thirishar and Bull (IIRC) that took out that drone last quarter.

Due to the nature of the events and this particular event, you'll not have the entire TF operating as one constantly. They'll have to spread out a bit.

It's very hard to run down a ship that's faster and more powerful than you without spreading yourself thin enough that they punch right through you and kill a couple hundred friends and family on the way. That's why Saavik has adopted a strategy of wearing OA and her fleet down. If the stars ever align, she /will/ jump the OA. But Saavik assumes that she'll only have one shot at it because after a battle that tracking program could be detected and that you truely free OA to ruin our shit. So Saavik wants that one shot to be as clean as possible.


To be clear though. MORE SHIPS: MORE CHANCES FOR MORE EVENTS.
 
Briefvoice said:
We've already seen logs for Task Force Burgundy, and that's not how it works.
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Except of course that eventually has to be exactly how it works or Burgundy will probably be unable to complete its mission by killing the dreads, or will need many more ships to ensure enough make the response rolls for dreadnought engagements.
 
Like I'm not saying that a smaller TF can't outperform a larger TF. But Its a matter of probabilities.

And Nash-magick probably
 
AKuz said:
Like I'm not saying that a smaller TF can't outperform a larger TF. But Its a matter of probabilities.

And Nash-magick probably
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Can I ask about the chances of a fleet battle using the combat engine?

Will that only happen on event failure or can fleet battles result from normal successful operations? And if it does happen, will it only use the ships in the task force or will they draw from local forces too?
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Can I ask about the chances of a fleet battle using the combat engine?

Will that only happen on event failure or can fleet battles result from normal successful operations? And if it does happen, will it only use the ships in the task force or will they draw from local forces too?
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In the event of a proper battle being joined, EITHER FROM SAAVIK DECIDING TO THROW DOWN OR HAYANT DECIDING TO THROW DOWN, we move the ships involved to the combat engine and away from dice.

And in most circumstances I can think of you'll only get Burgundy involved. Maybe, maaaby Azure if that's how OA was lured into accepting battle.
 
Alright, so I went all in. Posting this in a hurry because I need to hit the hay, but this is a fleet plan that goes for broke. Per @AKuz Saavik will jump Hayant if she can, and 150-200C of ships is enough to force a battle we have a good shot at winning. This is 160+ C of ships. Let's kill the bitch before she makes us fail a roll and digs out yet another 14C+drones monster, or gets the Cardassians to shelter her while upteching them, or gets all of the Hishmeri instead of some, etc etc. 140pp is a tiny price to pay for Hayant not dealing us a blow that has strategic reprecussions.

Celos was a failed roll that has created our current strategic situation. Wouldn't you have paid 140pp to not let the Cardassians dictate strategy to us?

[X] [SQUAD] Plan Briefvoice 2320

[X] [FLEET] Plan Thrax Stomp: 24 points of ships (140 pp, call up three cargo ships)
Andor: Reniassance (1pt)
Amarkia: Ancail x1, Riala-A x1
Apiata: Little Queenship x1, Stinger x4 (18C, 3 points)
Betazed: Reniassance
Caldonian: Reniassance
Human: x3 Reniassance
Indorian: x2 Reniassance
Tellar: x4 Reniassance
Vulcan: x1 Reniassance
Seyek: Sunrise x2 (4 points)
Orions: Felicity Xanatos (2 points), Mekpali x1

[X] [TASK] Form Task Force: Aqua
Task Force Aqua – Expires when Eternal Empire threat ended
  • Mission: [Race the Empress to her Fleet]
  • Commander: Diego Zaardmani - +1S on Flagship, Re-roll first failed Science check each year
  • Attachments: Vulcan Science Academy Archaeology Team: 5 pp on purchase, 3pp per year. Effect: +1 to first roll involving archaeology a quarter; Onion Navy Aerocommando Orbital Drop Company: 5pp on Purchase, 10pp per year. Effect: Reroll first failed Away Team Combat roll per quarter. Does not fulfill a Peacekeeper requirement. Enables Raid Events (like Anoxa or Sdranach).
  • As of 2320.Q1 - 1 Excelsior-A [Endurance], 1 Centaur-A [Yukikaze (B)], 1 Miranda-A [Agile (B)], 1 Constellation-A [Docana (B)]

[X] [TASK] Form Task Force: Burgundy
Task Force Burgundy – Expires when Eternal Empire threat ended
  • Mission: [Hunt Down Eternal Empire Forces]
  • Commander: Commodore Saavik - Re-roll the first Hard event failed each year
  • Attachments: Yoyodyne Research Team: 5pp on Purchase, 5pp per year. Enables reroll on first failed D-Test each quarter.; Starfleet Tactical Brass: 10pp on Purchase, 0pp per year. Enables coordination events with other powers.; Starfleet Intelligence Operations Team: 5pp on Purchase, 5pp per year. Effect: Enables Raid Events.; Amarki Gendarmes: 5pp on Purchase, 5pp per year. Effect: +1C for Away Team action, fulfills a Peacekeeper requirement attached to a Mission or event
  • As of 2320.Q1 – 2Excelsior-As [Kumari (B)], [Thirishar (B)], 2 Renaissances [Justice, Enlightenment], 2 Centaur-A [Gale (B), Bull (B), 1 Oberth [T'Mir (V)]
  • Andor: Reniassance (1pt)
    Amarkia: Ancail x1, Riala-A x1
    Apiata: Little Queenship x1, Stinger x4 (18C, 3 points)
    Betazed: Reniassance
    Caldonian: Reniassance
    Human: x3 Reniassance
    Indorian: x2 Reniassance
    Tellar: x4 Reniassance
    Vulcan: x1 Reniassance
    Seyek: Sunrise x2 (4 points)
    Orions: Felicity Xanatos (2 points), Mekpali x1
 
Forgothrax said:
[X] [TASK] Form Task Force: Burgundy
Task Force Burgundy – Expires when Eternal Empire threat ended
  • Mission: [Hunt Down Eternal Empire Forces]
  • Commander: Commodore Saavik - Re-roll the first Hard event failed each year
  • Attachments: Yoyodyne Research Team: 5pp on Purchase, 5pp per year. Enables reroll on first failed D-Test each quarter.; Starfleet Tactical Brass: 10pp on Purchase, 0pp per year. Enables coordination events with other powers.; Starfleet Intelligence Operations Team: 5pp on Purchase, 5pp per year. Effect: Enables Raid Events.; Amarki Gendarmes: 5pp on Purchase, 5pp per year. Effect: +1C for Away Team action, fulfills a Peacekeeper requirement attached to a Mission or event
  • As of 2320.Q1 – 2Excelsior-As [Kumari (B)], [Thirishar (B)], 2 Renaissances [Justice, Enlightenment], 2 Centaur-A [Gale (B), Bull (B), 1 Oberth [T'Mir (V)]
  • Andor: Reniassance (1pt)
    Amarkia: Ancail x1, Riala-A x1
    Apiata: Little Queenship x1, Stinger x4 (18C, 3 points)
    Betazed: Reniassance
    Caldonian: Reniassance
    Human: x3 Reniassance
    Indorian: x2 Reniassance
    Tellar: x4 Reniassance
    Vulcan: x1 Reniassance
    Seyek: Sunrise x2 (4 points)
    Orions: Felicity Xanatos (2 points), Mekpali x1
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Well, that's one way to promote Saavik to Rear Admiral...
 
In the event of a proper battle being joined, EITHER FROM SAAVIK DECIDING TO THROW DOWN OR HAYANT DECIDING TO THROW DOWN, we move the ships involved to the combat engine and away from dice.

And in most circumstances I can think of you'll only get Burgundy involved. Maybe, maaaby Azure if that's how OA was lured into accepting battle.
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Well, now I am sure that Saavik needs that second Excelcior

[X] [FLEET] Plan Thrax Stomp: 24 points of ships (140 pp, call up three cargo ships)
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What if we spend a year without capturing OA? Will you spend another 140pp? Burgundy bloated to this size is not guaranteed to capture Hayant. We may end with many member ships lost to constant ambushes and no victory. It is a political catastrophe
 
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Forgothrax said:
[X] [FLEET] Plan Thrax Stomp: 24 points of ships (140 pp, call up three cargo ships)
Andor: Reniassance (1pt)
Amarkia: Ancail x1, Riala-A x1
Apiata: Little Queenship x1, Stinger x4 (18C, 3 points)
Betazed: Reniassance
Caldonian: Reniassance
Human: x3 Reniassance
Indorian: x2 Reniassance
Tellar: x4 Reniassance
Vulcan: x1 Reniassance
Seyek: Sunrise x2 (4 points)
Orions: Felicity Xanatos (2 points), Mekpali x1
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Oh god please don't vote for this people.

I will be a good boy and merge Task Force Defender and Task Force Burgundy, but don't vote for this

It is crazy town, lunacy.
 
The definition of insanity is doing something twice and expecting a different result.

So yes, let's cherrytap Hayant another year while she digs up another Dread and drone complement, finds more allies, maybe makes it over the border and gets some Cardassian help by trading a techbase 50 years ahead of us. That's not lunacy whatsoever, nosiree!
 
Okay, based on GM resposne @Ukrainian Ranger you win.

I have edited my vote to adopt your larger Task Force Burgundy.

Briefvoice said:
So my plan is to keep the same sector fleets we had planned before, but recruit member ships so that we can get up to the full four task forces versus the Eternal Empire that we've been wanting boost Task Force Burgundy and get a third diplomatic task force. In particular, I want to buy Orion ships and put them on the diplomatic task force... Orions have high-P ships and can best make the case that the Empress does not represent the Orion people.

[X] [TASK] Form Task Force: Burgundy (Larger version)
  • Task Force Burgundy – Expires when Eternal Empire threat ended
  • Mission: [Hunt Down Eternal Empire Forces]
  • Commander: Commodore Saavik - Re-roll the first Hard event failed each year
  • Attachments: Yoyodyne Research Team: 5pp on Purchase, 5pp per year. Enables reroll on first failed D-Test each quarter.; Starfleet Tactical Brass: 10pp on Purchase, 0pp per year. Enables coordination events with other powers.; Starfleet Intelligence Operations Team: 5pp on Purchase, 5pp per year. Effect: Enables Raid Events.; Amarki Gendarmes: 5pp on Purchase, 5pp per year. Effect: +1C for Away Team action, fulfills a Peacekeeper requirement attached to a Mission or event
  • As of 2320.Q1 – 2 Excelsior-A [Thirishar (B), Kumari (B)], 2 Riala-A [Amarki Explorer], 2 Renaissances [Justice, Enlightenment], 2 Centaur-A [Gale (B), Bull (B)], 1 Little Queenship [Apinae Cruiser], 2 Stingers [Apinae Frigates]
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Well Sulu is planning to retire at the end of the year anyways. Maybe he wants to go out in style?
 
[X] Briefvoice

The all in plan is going to be very costly if they fail to run the Empress down, and take heavy losses among the members in the process.
 
Problems with the "send a huge wave of Rennies" plan

a) OA is more mobile and have more advanced sensors than we do. Even with tracker installed she will evade the fleetball of this size. Her forces will happily ambush lone Rennies should they ever spread out.
b) 100 additional pp is not a minor cost.
c) While we got a confirmation that more ships result in more events, I highly doubt that something like 8x more ships will result in 8x more events.
d) We motivate her to flee and come back later with whatever allies she may get
e) We distract member Rennies from whatever they were doing in background. I won't be surprised if GMs will come with creative side-effects of this. This distraction will become permanent if any ships lost
f) Diplomacy is important. I think our largest mistake last turn was not creating a diplomatic task force. Even one with lone Excelsior would make a difference.

If we could guarantee a decisive battle then, sure, send as many ships as we can. Unfortunately, it is far from guaranteed.
 
*unlurks*

Huh. Less happened than I thought. Another couple saltstorms, but nothing major.

But first, a vote.

[X] Forgothrax

(aka Plan Shut Up and Eat These High Energy Particles)

I can't say that I have the time to keep up with this thread, but I'll keep lurking.

E: @Simon_Jester

What did E write? I'm too tired to figure it out.
 
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