If we had a vote, I would vote against that.

In my defense, I wrote that before you posted you're post and nailed the problem right on the head. The lack of feedback is what was grating me.

I joined during the Syndicate War where, despite things occurring in the background instead of being micromanaged, we were getting constant updates and feedback.

Here? It's all micromanagement for no tangible results.
 
Did you forget the time we killed half the Sydraxian fleet while suffering minimal casualties?

it's not so much the crisis, it's just you can only clench for so long you know? the expanse war was exciting, stuff was happening tough calls were being made, but its been an extension of high tension for a long time now. I'm sort of out of fucks to give for the menats and their bullshit.
 
Regarding the "out of fucks to give" argument... Well, it IS a reason to try and make sure that from a gameplay standpoint, you only have one major crisis that requires the players to "clench" at a time, with cooldown periods in between.

The thing is, @random_npc... we had such a cooldown period. The Licori state of emergency wasn't declared until late March. We had our first SoE post on April 3. Prior to that time, while there were certainly fights going on in the Gabriel Expanse, that was an ongoing 'steady' operation. If you were in a state of 'clench' over that, it has more to do with your decision to regard that as an emergency than it does with the pacing of the game.

Pretty much the entirety of in-game 2313 and early 2314 was a 'cooldown' period from the heights of tension that occurred between the Lironh bombing and the signing of the Treaty of Celos, really.



Regarding the lack of feedback... the problem is that we don't get feedback until major battles are fought. It's like, should we have launched a huge fleet attack on Turn 2 or Turn 3 of the state of emergency? We'd get plenty of feedback that way, but we'd also be attacking when our own defenses are ill-prepared, when we don't have industrial assets mobilized to handle battle damage efficiently. And for that matter we'd have been attacking before we were even committed to the war, at a point in time when the Pacifist Party and the Vulcans in particular had major unanswered questions (and for that matter were major unanswered questions) regarding how this was going to go down.

Things take time to happen.

It's important to minimize the amount of unnecessary time that is spent when uninteresting things are happening, but things will inevitably take time to happen.

I don't really agree with the desire to kill point based mobilization. Right now we have a distinct lack of urgency with mobilizing more assets, like, we're mobilizing a scouting squad we'll need in two months and an internal team that's only happening because we mathed that it would start to convert Starfleet support to member world support in three months. But I could easily see us fighting a battle or a development coming up where suddenly mobilization is urgent again and we would sorely regret moving to a one asset model. This especially in any major war we fight.

I think the main problem is that fortnight turns are too slow, meaning we have too many inconsequential things to vote on, or we don't have anything to vote on at all. Much of what we voted as direction to Eaton, for example, really should have been left until both assaults went through. Mobilization on the other hand could follow a voted timed plan that covers an entire quarter, with modifications only coming up if big developments do, or if we choose to re-open it. That would eliminate fortnight turns in favor of monthly assignment/update and quarterly mobilization plans.
The problem is something you already mentioned: that "quarterly timed mobilization plans" are vulnerable to the exact problem you just pointed out with a "one asset per fortnight" mobilization model: if a sudden emergency arises, we cannot launch an equally sudden mass mobilization of diverse extra assets. We'd have to vote to cancel the quarterly plan in response to changing circumstances, as you say. Furthermore, since changing circumstances are very likely to arise multiple times a year in a serious emergency, we'd be making these plans and routinely expecting to have to vote to cancel a large proportion of them.

Also, a vote to cancel a quarterly plan could just as easily be a vote to abandon "one per fortnight" mobilization. You're proposing a solution that has the same weakness as my proposed solution, and your proposed workaround for that weakness could just as easily apply to my solution.

Maybe the problem is that you're picturing "one asset per fortnight" as being a permanent mandatory condition of mobilization at all times regardless of circumstances? Because I mentioned in an earlier post that I think we should start crises out in "make itemized plan" mode, then switch over to "one asset per fortnight" mode once the situation has calmed down.

If the situation becomes more unsettled, we can switch back. A "routine" vote might break down into two parts:

[][MOB] Andorian Civil Service - Internal Diplomacy Team (20pt cost for Andor, gain Internal Diplomacy Team, lock down next fortnight's MOB vote)
[][MOB] Call up Starfleet Reserve Personnel (20pt from Starfleet, +20 O/E/T for duration of SoE only, one-time, locks down next fortnight's MOB vote)
[][MOB] Generate Generic External Diplomacy Team from <Member World> (10 Cost to Starfleet, 5 Cost to Member World, gain External Diplomacy Team)
[][MOB] Starfleet Academy Red Squad Runabouts - Recon team (4 cost for Starfleet, gain +1 to outpost and starbase attempts to detect incoming ships)
[][MOB] Hargunn Arcrut Resource Combine - Heavy Industry (8 Cost to Tellar, gain Heavy Industry asset)
[][MOB] Hadad Pradesh Mond Engineering - Engineering Team (10 Cost from Rigel, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 2 Cargo Ships, 2 Freighters)
[][MOB] <Write-In>: Federalise up to 10 points of Fleet or Auxiliary Units from <Member Worlds> (5 cost for explorer, 2 cost for cruiser, 1 cost for frigate. 3 cost for freighter, 2 cost for cargo ship, 3 cost for other auxiliary units. Paid against war support from the planet you're calling from)

[][NEXT] Next turn, continue mobilization at the normal rates.
[][NEXT] Next turn, step up mobilization to emergency rates.

'Emergency rates' would be plan voting like what we've been doing. 'Normal rates' would be one team per fortnight.

This way, we could fold the "what do we mobilize" votes into the "status update" votes. So far, Oneiros has been giving us two update posts per fortnight- one in which he tells us what's happening and asks us what we want our teams to do, and one where he asks us what teams to mobilize. But we COULD fold both of those into one big post, greatly decreasing the number of low-content low-impact votes, by turning the vote into a single line-item on "what to mobilize next." Only if the voterbase votes to have 'emergency rate' mobilization would we step up to the point where it takes an entirely separate plan vote to determine what assets we mobilize in a given fortnight.

That and the tension in this emergency burned out sometime around the summit. We aren't even reacting to ship losses anymore. Some people didn't even realize the Blizzard was missing!
Thing is, we're going to lose ships every couple of turns. This is a war zone. Ships getting lost becomes a common occurrence. There's no way for us to have the level of panic reaction to a ship getting lost during a state of emergency that we'd have during peacetime. If we did, that would become counterproductive, because we'd be spending too much time in an elevated level of panic.
 
I wonder for if a war like this you want to go with monthly turns instead. The fortnights worked well for the biophage and Kadak-Tor because of how faced-paced those crises are, but we are seeing the grind here a bit. Also, as an example. If we went to war with the Cardassians and the war lasted 4 years, we'd be looking at 48 turns, or basically a month or two of updates assuming Oneiros did a post on it a day. If we went by fortnights, it'd be 104 updates, over twice the time IRL.

That being said, I think there's been some strong consensus on these votes and that's partially why there's been less voters. No real debate driving people to get out and vote.

I assume after some disaster or another happens we will have people blaming others for strategic failure which will drive vote counts up. Latest WAIFU wars post still had tons of voters, which means interest is still there and people are actively paying attention.
 
Hm.

I think the war would still have to be modeled fortnightly, because that's roughly the time it takes for a fleet to fly from Point A to Point B. Much lower time resolution than that and we can't react to their fleets assembling in a given place before the assembled fleet has already hit us.

But there would be fortnights in which nothing important happens. Maybe one or two ships are added to a large fleet concentration, or our scouts locate a Cardassian outpost (one of many, presumably). But nothing that can't wait.

When that happens, It would be entirely reasonable for him to dash off a one-liner saying "2318Q3.M1.F2, nothing important happened, moving on to 2318Q3.M2.F1" and just start writing the next update. Anything we need to know could be folded into the monthly update.

But there would be other times when we need that "half-step" update because Week 2 of Month 1 of Quarter 3 is the moment when we learn HOLY SHIT the Cardassians are concentrating twenty cruisers and fifteen escorts at Bajor. Losing two weeks of reaction time to a threat like that because of the turn cycle could cause us very serious problems, because two weeks after we detect that fleet it could already have rolled over Lapycorias with the surviving ships snarling menacingly at Indorian space. If the ships are detected in Week 1 of the month, you do NOT want to have to wait until Week 4 to decide what to do about them.

Um, he hasn't? We activate teams in the first fortnight of a month, then assign them stuff to do in the back half of the month.
[blinks]

I had become confused. Thank you.

NOTE: this means that my notion of 'one asset per fortnight' becomes 'one asset per month,' which come to think of it is EXACTLY the rate we used during the Biophage Crisis.

That said, we COULD still consolidate the "what to mobilize" into a single line-item vote for a single object each month, folding it into a larger monthly update. In that case, we'd only bother with the 'F2' update if something major happens in mid-month, as a way to ensure we can react to crises meaningfully.

This would not be satisfactory at times when we were trying to mobilize many assets to respond to a sudden emergency. But it would be better for times when we HAVE an adequate set of assets and are simply trying to 'chug along' at an adequate rate.
 
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The problem is something you already mentioned: that "quarterly timed mobilization plans" are vulnerable to the exact problem you just pointed out with a "one asset per fortnight" mobilization model: if a sudden emergency arises, we cannot launch an equally sudden mass mobilization of diverse extra assets. We'd have to vote to cancel the quarterly plan in response to changing circumstances, as you say. Furthermore, since changing circumstances are very likely to arise multiple times a year in a serious emergency, we'd be making these plans and routinely expecting to have to vote to cancel a large proportion of them.

Also, a vote to cancel a quarterly plan could just as easily be a vote to abandon "one per fortnight" mobilization. You're proposing a solution that has the same weakness as my proposed solution, and your proposed workaround for that weakness could just as easily apply to my solution.

Maybe the problem is that you're picturing "one asset per fortnight" as being a permanent mandatory condition of mobilization at all times regardless of circumstances? Because I mentioned in an earlier post that I think we should start crises out in "make itemized plan" mode, then switch over to "one asset per fortnight" mode once the situation has calmed down.

We already have to manually cancel individual asset assignments, so manually canceling an asset mobilization plan holds no additional complexity. We also do this regularly for fleet deployment: we make a fleet deployment plan that anticipates our fleet "income" and we cancel it and rework it if something major happens. We have done this regularly without issues. As far as I can tell, the only major event thusfar that might have affected our choice of mobilization was the summit, but even then I think we would have mobilized similar or the same assets and merely tasked then differently. So canceling the plan thusfar would not have happened. Naturally if we had gone with quarterly plans, I'd expect the available asset list to be properly updated at the time of plan to match timing of asset availability.

I am trying to decrease the number of updates and votes with this suggestion, especially the number of insignificant votes, so a regular 1-asset vote hinders rather than helps. Achieving better pacing is the primary objective. Bluntly, I don't see any difference between the pacing issues with the current system and the pacing issues with a 1-asset system, while it adds the issue of not being able to rapidly mobilize mid-emergency, something that the existing state of affairs and a cancelable plan both allow. And a 1-asset pace mixes systems when it swaps, and would do so multiple times, adding both inconsistency and confusion.

There's been no problem at all with point counting, so I feel the points system has done its job very well and does not need fixing.

That being said, I think there's been some strong consensus on these votes and that's partially why there's been less voters. No real debate driving people to get out and vote.

I assume after some disaster or another happens we will have people blaming others for strategic failure which will drive vote counts up. Latest WAIFU wars post still had tons of voters, which means interest is still there and people are actively paying attention.
My experience is that the blame game severely depresses vote count.
 
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I wonder for if a war like this you want to go with monthly turns instead. The fortnights worked well for the biophage and Kadak-Tor because of how faced-paced those crises are, but we are seeing the grind here a bit. Also, as an example. If we went to war with the Cardassians and the war lasted 4 years, we'd be looking at 48 turns, or basically a month or two of updates assuming Oneiros did a post on it a day. If we went by fortnights, it'd be 104 updates, over twice the time IRL.

That being said, I think there's been some strong consensus on these votes and that's partially why there's been less voters. No real debate driving people to get out and vote.

I assume after some disaster or another happens we will have people blaming others for strategic failure which will drive vote counts up. Latest WAIFU wars post still had tons of voters, which means interest is still there and people are actively paying attention.
Also, for me, if the nitty-gritty votes like this one are the sort that make your eyes blur and cross (as they do for me), and there's not a lot of clear "this is this Plan, this is this Plan, etc." type stuff, I just lose interest in figuring out how to vote, and skim the thread. I mean, I already tend to vote for one of a handful of people who I know have a good handle on the mechanics of this game, mechanics I only loosely understand, and I certainly don't feel like drowning myself in the spreadsheets to figure it all out...so I just vote for whoever's vote looks good and who I know has a head for the numbers getting juggled.
 
We already have to manually cancel individual asset assignments, so manually canceling an asset mobilization plan holds no additional complexity. We also do this regularly for fleet deployment: we make a fleet deployment plan that anticipates our fleet "income" and we cancel it and rework it if something major happens. We have done this regularly without issues. As far as I can tell, the only major event thusfar that might have affected our choice of mobilization was the summit, but even then I think we would have mobilized similar or the same assets and merely tasked then differently. So canceling the plan thusfar would not have happened.
This is mainly because nothing bad has happened. Your original objection to "one per month" mobilization was predicated on "what if something bad happens and we want to mobilize many assets in a hurry?"

Naturally if we had gone with quarterly plans, I'd expect the available asset list to be properly updated at the time of plan to match timing of asset availability.

I am trying to decrease the number of updates and votes with this suggestion, especially the number of insignificant votes, so a regular 1-asset vote hinders rather than helps. Achieving better pacing is the primary objective. Bluntly, I don't see any difference between the pacing issues with the current system and the pacing issues with a 1-asset system, while it adds the issue of not being able to rapidly mobilize mid-emergency, something that the existing state of affairs and a cancelable plan both allow.
The 1-asset system would be no more or less easy to drop so that we can change plans mid-emergency than any other system; the amount of work required is exactly the same: Oneiros recognizes that whatever just happened will require a change in our response, and offers us an opportunity to change our response via a vote.

The 1-asset system has the advantage that it can be folded into a monthly update post, rather than meriting an entire separate post in its own right. This would (at the moment) reduce our "posts per quarter of emergency" under normal conditions where nothing goes disastrously wrong and forces us to change our plans from the current six, down to three. Your plan would most likely reduce it from six to four.

If something blows up and we need a higher rate of mobilization (or a change of mobilization plans), then we would end up with more than three/four posts either way.

And a 1-asset pace mixes systems when it swaps, and would do so multiple times, adding both inconsistency and confusion.
Would you be confused by this situation? I doubt it. I know I wouldn't.

There's been no problem at all with point counting, so I feel the points system has done its job very well and does not need fixing.
The points system does not need fixing, nor do I propose to 'fix' it. I propose to use it differently, with Oneiros giving us a single line-item choice from a list of options that have different costs and rewards. Sort of like we often do with options that cost PP or the like.

Perhaps Oneiros could allow us to 'bank' unused points, so that we could occasionally 'splurge' and get an unusually expensive item without 'burning' the next MOB vote. At the moment it doesn't seem like 'banking' is really allowed.
 
Yeah, for me that's the problem. There's been no feedback on whether we've been making good decisions or bad decisions. I think maybe for a lot of people it feels like we've been tossing these votes into a void. It's not in any way obvious what it all means or what effect it would have.

Yeah this is pretty much it.

The caveat being that, especially early on, Oneiros couldn't speed up the pre-war phase that much more without overwhelming the players more than they already are with the new game mechanics. We weren't sure what each team could do, the payoff of what such teams could do, the importance of war support (and we're still iffy on this), and so forth. Plus with the amount of mobilized teams per turn and the assignments of each, if they were combined, it would result in huge complex vote plans extremely prone to bandwagon or appeals to authority.

I dunno if the mobilization point + split team mobilization/assignment phases need to be revamped or replaced. When I first saw it, I thought it was pretty elegant and made quite a bit of sense - that 11th hour vote epitomized it. Now? ... hmm not sure yet, will wait and see.

Teething pains are to be expected. After all, this is supposed to be the prelude war where Oneiros tests out war crisis mechanics before our almost assuredly upcoming war with the Cardassians.

edit: typos
 
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As a lurker I think part of it is the slow start to this crisis compared to the previous ones is a problem. How many weeks have gone by now were all everyone's been doing is trying to increase mobilization and start federalizing different Member World stuff? It might be better to streamline that for future SoE's.

Maybe there could be a vote put up to discuss what assets should immediately be available when a Federation wide SoE is declared that gets revised every half decade or so. We could get a big list of stuff and everyone can debate over that in a single vote. That way other SoE's can start with a greater amount of mobilized assets earlier and we can skip the early phases of deciding what order to get all these teams in. Earlier turns could still be monthly as it would just be a matter of the assets forming up or getting ready, but that wouldn't require micromanagement at the level it's been at recently.
 
In the context of a Cardassian all-out war I wouldn't even mess around with this asset mobilization stuff. At that point it should be just be a list of available assets, go ahead and assign them. Asset mobilization makes sense only in the context of limited States of Emergency where mobilizing the entire Federation is unnecessary.
 
In the context of a Cardassian all-out war I wouldn't even mess around with this asset mobilization stuff. At that point it should be just be a list of available assets, go ahead and assign them. Asset mobilization makes sense only in the context of limited States of Emergency where mobilizing the entire Federation is unnecessary.

War Support would still be a relevant statistic though. What I'd imagine for a Cardassian War would be that initial levels of war support would be higher, and the number of assets we could mobilize per turn would be much higher. Restrained by logistics rather than political will. Still, if we demand too much, the various member states would start to beat the peace drum eventually.
 
Hm.

I think that in the case of a war with Cardassia, war support for certain powers might have a 'regen rate,' and would probably start higher to boot. Others might not have a regen rate, or have a low one. For instance, the Indorians and Apiata would be busily using their war assets for themselves and would have limited patience with us confiscating them in ways that might undermine their own ability to defend themselves. Likewise, elements among the Vulcans and Betazoids will probably start agitating against the war as soon as we've repelled the initial invasions and the Cardassians show any sign of being willing to make peace.

That said, we might well have a high enough initial cap that it would be... problematic... to organize the mobilization in the opening weeks.

Moreover, such a war would almost certainly last for years. It would get VERY draggy to have separate posts on what assets to mobilize each time for a long period, and we'd probably run out of time entirely.
 
This is mainly because nothing bad has happened. Your original objection to "one per month" mobilization was predicated on "what if something bad happens and we want to mobilize many assets in a hurry?"
Yes, and? The pace of mobilization is set by points. Abandoning points means that fast mobilization can no longer happen in a way that is internal to the mechanics, only an external method, which is bad for readers trying to understand where they have agency. Right now we have points to mobilize two explorers, two cruisers, and six frigates, which is an entire task force, every month. Building a points reserve, or even interrupting the plan to spend reserved points, is something we should be able to consider, and I've seen no indication that option isn't available. It's also the organic way to handle an emergency requisition.

If we drop mobilization even for slow periods, internal teams lose a lot of their meaning, as does the rate of war support change.

The 1-asset system would be no more or less easy to drop so that we can change plans mid-emergency than any other system; the amount of work required is exactly the same: Oneiros recognizes that whatever just happened will require a change in our response, and offers us an opportunity to change our response via a vote.

The 1-asset system has the advantage that it can be folded into a monthly update post, rather than meriting an entire separate post in its own right. This would (at the moment) reduce our "posts per quarter of emergency" under normal conditions where nothing goes disastrously wrong and forces us to change our plans from the current six, down to three. Your plan would most likely reduce it from six to four.

If something blows up and we need a higher rate of mobilization (or a change of mobilization plans), then we would end up with more than three/four posts either way.
Typically we want to be able to use teams the quarter we acquire them. Preassigning teams to income is far better for this than adding a potentially tangential mobilize vote to our team directions. It also removes any confusion about timing. It's just better organisation.

Perhaps Oneiros could allow us to 'bank' unused points, so that we could occasionally 'splurge' and get an unusually expensive item without 'burning' the next MOB vote. At the moment it doesn't seem like 'banking' is really allowed.

I've seen no evidence that it's not allowed. This is the first turn that we have one point leftover. I expect to see that point next turn, but there definitely is nothing to say that it "seem"s like banking isn't allowed. No evidence either way.
 
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I didn't vote because I was busy with other things IRL, and because I trust the long-standing participants of this quest to be sane.
 
The discussion moved on by the time I was free to vote. (Can only really do it from my home computer. Tablet is impractical.)
 
Having trouble. With the Shakakoun, it was a simple puzzle of figuring out what rooms/devices are essential for a warship and how to fit them onto an itty bitty frame. The Megatortoise has so much space - even with the warp field gap in the middle - that I'm not sure how to fill it all aside from making a million redundancies.

Anyone with a knack for ship layouts feel like giving me a hand? PM me if so.


1 pixel = 1 meter
 
Having trouble. With the Shakakoun, it was a simple puzzle of figuring out what rooms/devices are essential for a warship and how to fit them onto an itty bitty frame. The Megatortoise has so much space - even with the warp field gap in the middle - that I'm not sure how to fill it all aside from making a million redundancies.

Anyone with a knack for ship layouts feel like giving me a hand? PM me if so.

Hollow it out like a TNG Romulan ship? That gets you the LOS between Warp Cores, and makes a ship that is literally all shell.
 
Hollow it out like a TNG Romulan ship? That gets you the LOS between Warp Cores, and makes a ship that is literally all shell.

It already has a massive hollow in the middle for that purpose.

Suuuper thick hull plate, sturdier inter-deck spaces, and redundant systems for everything.

Makes sense. I already have multiple redundancies for the shield projectors, as I decided that the reason for its ridiculous shield power is that it has a system of mini-deflectors or amplifiers distributed across its surface.

One issue I'm having is with escape pods. I have the main shuttle bay positioned in the upper aft hull (the "tail" section above the impulse engines) but wouldn't it make sense to have escape pods positioned elsewhere throughout such a big ship? Where would those go?
 
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