That said, I still think we need better numbers on our Escorts. I'll admit that I'm not plugged into the spreadsheet side of things, which makes it somewhat unclear how the design requirements impact the design process, and how that comes out in terms of actual stats. Is there any chance that someone who is could explain some of those details, and give us some numbers for a new Combat Escort design, using the most recent technology?
Put it this way: My best attempt at just recreating the M-A costs about twice as much crew, +20 br/sr, and weighs about 100kt more. We are not too likely to squeeze anything better than the Miranda out anytime soon, I think.
 
Put it this way: My best attempt at just recreating the M-A costs about twice as much crew, +20 br/sr, and weighs about 100kt more. We are not too likely to squeeze anything better than the Miranda out anytime soon, I think.

Huh. So the mechanics changed in the background, making it impossible to build a ship even as good as the ones we have, and the only reason we still can is that the old designs are still grandfathered in? Duly noted.
 
[X][ROLES] A Light Explorer to supplement the Excelsiors

[X][WG] A 1v1 with any two Ships, including member world ships (Gaeni Tech Cruiser vs Con B)

Why would we ever want to send Rennies on five year missions when we can send Excelsiors? Wouldn't it make more sense to build (relatively cheaper, easier to repair, crew-slimmer) Renaissances for the regular Starfleet and send them into battle, while sending the Excelsior(-A)s into the Explorer Corps?

The size and capabilities of our Explorer Corps isn't limited by our ability to build ships. Not even our ability to build Excelsiors. It's limited by our production of Explorer Corps crew. If we had enough Explorer Corps crew we could be rolling out a new Explorer Corps ship or two every single year- and as our crew recruitment has improved we've gotten a lot closer to that standard. In 2301-05 we commissioned only one new Explorer Corps ship. In 2306-10 it was only one more... but in 2311-14 we've commissioned THREE. And we've had to repeatedly send Excelsiors into regular fleet service, where it would be more efficient to rely on Rennies and Miranda-As, because those high-powered explorers help with sector event response and because frankly we can't afford more Explorer Corps ships because we don't have enough qualified warm bodies to crew them all.

Explorer Corps ships roll Combat checks on a regular basis, and when they fail those checks they take heavy damage, the costs of which eat up pretty much the entire rewards of a five year mission.

Look at what happened to Courageous in '09 if you don't believe me- we lost half the crew, something like 100/75 resources on repairs, and took an opportunity cost hit of about a year in drydock, because the ship failed a Combat check. If our explorers didn't have Combat 6, that would happen a lot more often.

I would suspect that one of the advantages of a light explorer, even one modelled on a renaissance frame for example, would be smaller crew requirement which is indeed one of the reasons why I like the idea.

And unlike you I think that combat checks during 5ym missions are already relatively rare and that in cases where it does happen it should be possible (and prudent) for a light explorer to simply retreat instead of deciding to stick/fight it out (or simply avoid high risk areas). For me such a ship simply fits perfectly into the roster of the Starfleet and certainly fits its its mission statement of exploration. Because at some point the argument that our capital ships are actually explorers starts to wear thin...
 
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I think the light explorer specification is something we will build as a replacement for the Excelsior, likely some time around the early 2340s.

When the Explorer Corps is fully stocked with Ambassadors and we are working on the Galaxy.
By then the Excelsiors will be our taskforce flagships and we should have the technology to make something better that is cheaper on crew. Because of the number of Excelsiors we will have by then, it is unlikely we will build many, but they would work well as theatre flagships.
 
Huh. So the mechanics changed in the background, making it impossible to build a ship even as good as the ones we have, and the only reason we still can is that the old designs are still grandfathered in? Duly noted.
It's best to assume the sheet is in a constant state of flux, and nobody can predict what is possible tomorrow.

That said, I am kinda in favor of persuing a Light Explorer/Modular Heavy Cruiser design that can fulfill the Garrison requirement of an Excelsior with a stock "Peacetime" module and bump up to C7 for Wartime by stripping all that out and replacing it with shields, extra phasers and burst-launchers. We'd need to research at least one bigger Module though, I'd want at least the 450kt one, and would prefer the 600kt module.
 
Since these Tactical Operations posts are apparently going to be a yearly thing, I don't think there's any point in voting for a new design until the year before we're ready to go to the Snakepit and ask to get it started.
 
Huh. So the mechanics changed in the background, making it impossible to build a ship even as good as the ones we have, and the only reason we still can is that the old designs are still grandfathered in? Duly noted.
It's not even the first design like that. We can't design the Oberth either, and the Klingon Bird of Prey is absolutely ludicrous in how much it doesn't fit in with everything else, considering its size and stats.
 
@Briefvoice I would like to consider refiting an explorer that finishes it mission once the courageous is done

Are there any 5YM Explorers that hit their 5 year mark in the next game year?

Courageous was due to finish soon, but got cut short and so got the refit early as part of it's repairs, and I think there is a gap before the next Explorer comes out of mission.
 
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[X] [ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]
[X] [WG] A Fleet "Battle". The Thirishar, Gale, Harmony, Astute, and Assist vs the T'Mir and runabouts to simulate civilian traffic. The Svai and Calypso are available as a reserve. The objective is to prevent the "mentat" on the T'Mir from penetrating the patrol area and destructively completing their thesis, which would result in the annihilation of Betazed. A second Oberth [Torbriel] is secretly participating as a decoy. [Please caucus this vote with the similar plan that does not use Thirishar, if it does not win] Cost: 6pp.
 
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[X][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]

[X][WG] A 2v2 with any Ships, including member world ships - Gaeni Tech-Frigate and Tech-Cruiser versus an Excelsior [Excelsior] and a Miranda [Svai] with the explicit purpose of learning to counter a Tech-Ship doctrine.
 
[X] [ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]
[X] [WG] A Fleet "Battle". The Thirishar, Gale, Harmony, Astute, and Assist vs the T'Mir and runabouts to simulate civilian traffic. The Svai and Calypso are available as a reserve. The objective is to prevent the "mentat" on the T'Mir from penetrating the patrol area and destructively completing their thesis, which would result in the annihilation of Betazed. A second Oberth [Torbriel] is secretly participating as a decoy. [Please caucus this vote with the similar plan that does not use Thirishar, if it does not win] Cost: 6pp.
 
It's best to assume the sheet is in a constant state of flux, and nobody can predict what is possible tomorrow.
...This. [sighs]

Knowing that Licori get a 5% bonus against ships with lower science.
That seems a bit narrow. Evasion and detection and maneuvers outside of combat play a very large role in shaping what battles we fight, how our ships function, and in addressing questions like "how much Science does a viable combat frigate need, anyway?"

Asking the Gaeni to do their best Licori impersonation in hopes that we'll learn something specific to this war about an incremental bonus that makes less difference than whether we brought one extra Miranda in an entire 12-ship assault fleet, on the other hand... I don't think we're going to learn very much that is both applicable AND likely to change the outcome of the war noticeably.

I wouldn't be. Okay, step back and let's think about how the Licori have been fighting the war up to date. We have absolutely no indications that they have been using a tactic of "put a mentat on a weakly defended high Science ship and sneak them into some place to unleash a weapon of mass destruction". If they haven't done it to the Ked Peddah, why are you so worried about it happening to us?
Because they can fight the Ked Peddah on roughly equal terms without resorting to weapons of (cosmic-sized) mass destruction. They can maybe even fight the Gaeni and the Ked Peddah at the same time on those terms, maybe, they could plausibly hope.

They cannot fight the Federation that way, and unless they are Kazon-level stupid they know it. Which means there is a very high risk of them doing something desperate and horrific in an attempt to even up the odds or force us to back off.

If they're planning to do it in a fleet battle, watching one or two Gaeni ships in action won't tell us specifically what form that might take. It won't prepare us for a fleet-eating weapon, it'll at best tip us off to something mildly significant like a 5% combat bonus against us.

If they're planning to do it by devastating or destroying one of our major planets, a bit of preparation and drill could make the difference between billions dead and a member species effectively knocked out of the Federation, versus a minor footnote in the history books.

We do have some indication they're using super-science shenanigans, but not that its happening by the mechanism you're describing or how you think the T'Mir should emulate.
Do you think the mentat that touched off the quantum filament in the Vulcan Sector, or the mentat that triggered the partial stellar collapse that flash-fried the Courageous, were flying around in battleships or cruisers? From the way you're presenting this issue, you seem to think the answer is "yes."

You also seem to be very, very offense-minded here, to the point where you are downplaying the importance of our own defense. The entire reason Task Force Four even exists is because of a concern that Licori ships may try 'deep strikes' against our space using star-breaking or other extremely devastating weapons. That's a threat we need to practice against. And T'Mir is better suited to the task of playing "aggressor squadron" to impersonate this threat, by experience doing something partially comparable against the Cardassians, than any other ship we have.

No... no we aren't! You just made that suggestion up out of nothing! You make up this "sneak past us" tactic and are asserting it's a thing when there's no evidence it's a thing.

You invented this "concern" without any evidence behind it!
Tell it to Vol Chad and Rosalee McAdams, who had ships crippled by individual mentats in civilian vessels performing astrophysics experiments. Between the Sappho and the Courageous, if I don't have a round three million tons of evidence for this threat, it's only because a chunk of the two ships' mass boiled off in the cosmic catastrophes that disabled them.
 
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@OneirosTheWriter, can you please clarify the relevancy of ship roles to our current roster of ship classes?

As I understand it, ship roles serve two purposes:
A) What new ship class or refit design proposals we can propose to the Council
B) What doctrinal bonuses apply to a current ship class (and narratively, how such ships should be used, ROEs, etc.)

Purpose A we understand quite well now. But it's somewhat at odds with purpose B, since each time we advance a ship role's requirements, we risk further divorcing existing ship classes from their nominal ship roles.

As it stands, we now have 4 active ship classes (3 of which can still be built) that technically do not meet the requirements of the closest ship roles they can aspire to:
  1. Oberth (C1 S5 H1 L2 P1 D1 avg1.83, 15br 60sr 2yr O-1 E-1 T-4, frigate frame)
    • doesn't meet Science Frigate role (<P3)
  2. Constellation (C3 S2 H2 L2 P2 D3 avg2.33, 70br 40sr 700kt 3yr O-2 E-4 T-2, cruiser frame, likely medium tactical frame):
    • doesn't meet General Cruiser role (<4 stat average, <D4, <1mt)
    • doesn't meet Garrison Frigate role (not frigate frame, <S3, <P3)
    • doesn't meet Combat Frigate roles (not frigate frame, likely medium tactical frame)
  3. Constitution-B (C5 S3 H3 L4 P3 D5 avg3.83, 100br 80sr 1mt 3yr O-3 E-4 T-4, cruiser frame):
    • doesn't meet General Cruiser role (<4 stat average)
  4. Constitution-A (retconned C4 S3 H3 L3 P4 D5 avg3.67, 100br 100sr 1mt 4yr O-5 E-4 T-4, explorer frame, no longer buildable):
    • doesn't meet Heavy Explorer role (<S5, <P5, <2.2mt)
    • doesn't meet General Cruiser role (not cruiser frame, <4 stat average)
Furthermore, none of the proposed Constellation-A refit designs technically meet any of the ship roles:
  1. 2313 Escort Variant (C3 S3 H2 L2 P3 D4 avg2.83, 70br 50sr 700kt 2yr O-2 E-4 T-2, cruiser frame, likely medium tactical frame):
    • doesn't meet General Cruiser role (<4 stat average, <1mt)
    • doesn't meet Garrison Frigate role (not frigate frame)
    • doesn't meet Combat Frigate role (not frigate frame, likely medium tactical frame)
  2. 2313 Cruiser Variant (C4 S3 H3 L3 P2 D4 avg3.17, 70br 55sr 700kt 3yr O-2 E-4 T-2, cruiser frame, likely medium tactical frame):
    • doesn't meet General Cruiser role (<4 stat average, <1mt)
    • doesn't meet Garrison Frigate role (not frigate frame, <P3)
    • doesn't meet Combat Frigate role (not frigate frame, likely medium tactical frame)
  3. 2314 Pacifist Variant (C3 S4 H2 L3 P3 D4 avg3.17, 70br 50sr 700kt 3yr O-2 E-4 T-2, cruiser frame, likely medium tactical frame):
    • doesn't meet General Cruiser role (<4 stat average, <1mt)
    • doesn't meet Garrison Frigate role (not frigate frame)
    • doesn't meet Combat Frigate role (not frigate frame, likely medium tactical frame)
    • doesn't meet Science Frigate role (not frigate frame, likely medium tactical frame, <S5, >C2)
What ship roles should all these current and prospective ship classes belong to in the face of these violations? Constellation(-A) and Constitution-A are particularly tricky here - should they have the cruiser and explorer Lone Ranger doctrinal bonuses, respectively?
 
I really, REALLY think that we could overlook "but it's not a frigate frame!" in the context of Constellation refits filling Garrison Frigate missions.
 
Besides, we're probably going to need the berth while we work out how to fix a ship that got hit by a Licori "Bend a Centaur into a pretzel" ray.

[The crew is just fine, they're just... hella perplexed as to how the ship got reshaped into a giant pretzel]
 
[X] [ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]
[X] [WG] A Fleet "Battle". The Gale, Harmony, Astute, and Assist vs the T'Mir and runabouts to simulate civilian traffic. The Svai and Calypso are available as a reserve. The objective is to prevent the "mentat" on the T'Mir from penetrating the patrol area and destructively completing their thesis, which would result in the annihilation of Betazed. A second Oberth [Torbriel] is secretly participating as a decoy. Cost: 4pp.
 
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