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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Briefvoice said:
Derek58 and Void Stalker, you make a very convincing case... and then the latest set of Captain's Logs hit. Tensions are rising too fast, and a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. It is very unlikely that we would be able to get a single Renaissance deployed before a conflict with Cardassia breaks out, and certainly not two. On the other hand it is very possible that we could get all of our Constellations refitted and even build one or two more refitted Constellations. Refits only take a year, after all, and we have lots of small shipyards. There will certainly not be time to "phase out" Constellations before the next crisis.
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I'm still willing to take that risk, because as I've said, the refit only provides a small increase to the Constellations, compared to the significant increase across the board of the Renaissance.

And it's a year and a half (6 turns) for that small increase, which we could instead put to better use IMO by making progress in researching the Renaissance.

Request Refit Program for Constellation class [+1 C,S,D, for 20br, 10sr, 1 Year (4 turns)], 6 turns 45pp
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Edit: If conflict does break out, our Excelsiors are going to be the deciding factor, not a tiny increase in the capabilities of our Constellations, so I don't see a need to do the refit.
 
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Derek58 said:
I'm still willing to take that risk, because as I've said, the refit only provides a small increase to the Constellations, compared to the significant increase across the board of the Renaissance.

And it's a year and a half (6 turns) for that small increase, which we could instead put to better use IMO by making progress in researching the Renaissance.
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We are not starting the Renaissance next Snake Pit, full stop. We have to finish our light cruiser research first, and that will take another two years. So there's not reason we can't do both, start the Constellation refit next chance we get and then start the Renaissance project two snakepits after that. It is not an either or option, and I see a good argument for doing both. The refits provide a small but real benefit for a small but real cost in the short term, and the Renaissance provides a much bigger benefit in the much longer term.
 
Briefvoice said:
Derek58 and Void Stalker, you make a very convincing case... and then the latest set of Captain's Logs hit. Tensions are rising too fast, and a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. It is very unlikely that we would be able to get a single Renaissance deployed before a conflict with Cardassia breaks out, and certainly not two. On the other hand it is very possible that we could get all of our Constellations refitted and even build one or two more refitted Constellations. Refits only take a year, after all, and we have lots of small shipyards. There will certainly not be time to "phase out" Constellations before the next crisis.

Please consider the shorter time horizon, not the longer one. I certainly want to do the Renaissance eventually, but they will only likely be useful for the crisis after the next crisis, or even the crisis after that. Refitted Constellations will be useful in the extremely short term, and ultimately don't take that much political will. Heck, @Void Stalker I would be happy to do both that and the outposts at Tellar and simply put off diplomacy one lousy year.
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A rapid refit program would backfire enormously if a war happens to break out during it, the ships being tied up and no berths being available for repairs. Not saying that we shouldn't do a refit, but refitting existing ships needs to be gradual, probably only 1-2 at a time, so the short term benefits wouldn't be anywhere near as good as you describe. Integrating the Amarki, Caitians, Rigellians and Orions rapidly would be by far the best way to increase our defensive capabilities quickly. Each of those has a good shipbuilding capacity and should have a strong navy. We'd only increase our defensive responsabilities moderately, mostly the frontier would just move a bit west with the Andor sector completely shielded and the Tellar sector mostly so.
 
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Briefvoice said:
We are not starting the Renaissance next Snake Pit, full stop. We have to finish our light cruiser research first, and that will take another two years. So there's not reason we can't do both, start the Constellation refit next chance we get and then start the Renaissance project two snakepits after that. It is not an either or option, and I see a good argument for doing both. The refits provide a small but real benefit for a small but real cost in the short term, and the Renaissance provides a much bigger benefit in the much longer term.
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I don't see why you're so sure that we're not going to start it, Oneirous hasn't said anything about how research that finishes during the research part of producing a new class will affect that yet.

I don't see the small benefit of the refit having much effect on a coming conflict, our Excelsiors are going to be the deciding factor, not an extra Combat and Defense for the Constellations.

And if tensions with the Cardassians don't escalate into an all out war soon, that gives us time to do the Renaissance research and complete the prototype.

Edit: Hell, the Enterprise repeatedly thwarting their schemes and looking awesome while doing it could make the Cardassians very reluctant to get into war with us, and stick to what they're trying now for awhile. They might think that all of our ships are that awesome (which I think someone mentioned earlier) :D
 
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Nix said:
A rapid refit program would backfire enormously if a war happens to break out during it, the ships being tied up and no berths being available for repairs. Not saying that we shouldn't do a refit, but refitting existing ships needs to be gradual, probably only 1-2 at a time, so the short term benefits wouldn't be anywhere near as good as you describe. Integrating the Amarki, Caitians, Rigellians and Orions rapidly would be by far the best way to increase our defensive capabilities quickly. Each of those has a good shipbuilding capacity and should have a strong navy. We'd only increase our defensive responsabilities moderately, mostly the frontier would just move a bit west with the Andor sector completely shielded and the Tellar sector mostly so.
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I can foresee we are going to have a heavy clash next Snakepit when your propose an all-diplomacy plan and I propose a low-diplomacy plan.

I am getting more and more uneasy at how everyone wants to tie up the majority of our political will in things that will have benefit only in the long term. Having new members is great, but one year's diplomatic push gets us on average nothing. It's pure investment in the future. I'm good with pursuing one or two species, the Amarki and Betazed are pleasantly close, but the others you mention are probably 4 or 5 years away at maximum push, and when they do become members will still take time to pay off all the political will invested as well as individually each increasing our defense requirement. I want to reserve at the majority of our political will for things with much shorter term payoff.

Let's not add new members faster than we can build a fleet big enough to defend them.
 
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Omake - RSV Xemet - Tasoli
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    • @OneirosTheWriter an omake

    RSV Xemet towards the ending of Biophage crisis. Natural Zone.

    "We are at the assigned cordanites sir" Ensign Merik called out of his station. He was his second comm officer. His first comm officer was in the med bay after the last fight and had not get back yet.

    "Open a channel and send this message, This is Captain Galan of RSV Xemet we are here to join you in your patrol in the are as per our orders, we are transmitting our intended flight plan, be ready to move out, Galan out" Ensign Merik responded a confirmation of the message being send.

    "I wonder which of their ships they will send? One of their vaunted Explorers maybe?" Lt. Commander S'anra his tactical officer whispered loudly enough to be heard.

    His intelligance officer Commander Tavf was the on respond before anyone else, "Can't be we know where they are and all of them are busy. It will be one of the lesser ships. Still a good chance to get more intel about their regular fleet"

    "Federation ship on screen sir, they are hailing us" regular light of the bridge dimming slightly as per protocol when main screen lighted up and showed the his federation counter part one of the light crusers of Federation. Captain Galan was ordered to cordinate with federation ship that was in the area. Truthfully he was curious. Since the war they had been in isolation and had been taught to hate Federation and Humans. This was the first time he would be meeting a human.

    Screen showed up a brightly lit bridge and a Human Captain in his chair. He did not look as alien as he tough he would. "I am Captain Solaire of USS Astora. It is good to meet you my friend" That is until he opened his mouth.

    "Friend! I am not a friend of yours, we are merely here to do our duty and patrol our intended path." Captain Galan could not have his reputation dirtied by being called a human friend. " So I suggest you take heed what you call me least I do something rash" He could see a few of his bridge officers nodding at that.

    " Come now my friend, The way I see it, Our fates appear to be intertwined. In the lands of biohorrors, Could that be a mere chance? So, what do you say? Why not help one another on this lonely journey?" Galan was starting to get really confused, this Captain Solaire was aware they were here on orders right? he was pretty sure Starfleet issued same orders he got. So what was this guy babling about?

    Never the less he pressed on. This guy was crazy but that didn't matter he just wanted to finish this patrol and go home and forget about this whole thing. " We will help you in this patrol but that is only because of orders so do not try anything do you understand?" Please understand he prayed and don't make this more weird.

    Response was quick and he could see human give a very bright smile to that. "Of course, my officer is sending you a way to communicate with us, Use this to summon one another as needed, cross the gaps between the worlds, and let us engage in jolly co- operation." His Ensign was mouthing the words jolly co- operation and he felt the coming headache.

    "Sure" he answered. Not knowing what else to say "We shall stay in contact, follow us. Galan out" As soon us screen darkened and light returned to normal his tactical officer snorted.

    "They are joking right?" she said as she got up "They are trying to trick us into making a weird report"

    Commander Tavf seem to agree "Nobody is that theatrical." he shook his head.

    "Imagine if it was not a trick," Ensign Merik shot back. "and every Federation Captain is like that."

    Every body in the bridge paused for a moment to think about that. Then as one they shuddered. "God hope not" ,"Imagine working with him every day", "He is kinda fun", "No way" was the general reaction on the bridge. Lt. Commander S'anar looked up " Who was that"

    Captain Galan decided to put an end to that quick lest they get too distracted. "Enough. On station everybody we are still on duty, save it for your own time." He turned to his pilot "Helm set the patrol course and watch Federation ship to make sure they keep to their own. Engage when ready."

    Commander Tavf turned to him. "So now that you met a human what do you think?" He said referring to his insistence of not judging them until he met one.

    "Let's just get this over with" He said in a resigned tone. Why did crazy one found him he didn't know but he prayed for forgiveness for whatever wrong he committed to get this.
     
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    • Briefvoice said:
    I can foresee we are going to have a heavy clash next Snakepit when your propose an all-diplomacy plan and I propose a low-diplomacy plan.

    I am getting more and more uneasy at how everyone wants to tie up the majority of our political will in things that will have benefit only in the long term. Having new members is great, but one year's diplomatic push gets us on average nothing. It's pure investment in the future. I'm good with pursuing one or two species, the Amarki and Betazed are pleasantly close, but the others you mention are probably 4 or 5 years away at maximum push, and when they do become members will still take time to pay off all the political will invested as well as individually each increasing our defense requirement. I want to reserve at the majority of our political will for things with much shorter term payoff.

    Let's not add new members faster than we can build a fleet big enough to defend them.
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    The Amarki have their own ships and are capable of defending themselves. If we push diplomacy with them we have a chance to get their fleets behind us in a war and that's propably more than what we can build in a few years. Same for some other races.
     
    Briefvoice said:
    I can foresee we are going to have a heavy clash next Snakepit when your propose an all-diplomacy plan and I propose a low-diplomacy plan.

    I am getting more and more uneasy at how everyone wants to tie up the majority of our political will in things that will have benefit only in the long term. Having new members is great, but one year's diplomatic push gets us on average nothing. It's pure investment in the future. I'm good with pursuing one or two species, the Amarki and Betazed are pleasantly close, but the others you mention are probably 4 or 5 years away at maximum push, and when they do become members will still take time to pay off all the political will invested as well as individually each increasing our defense requirement. I want to reserve at the majority of our political will for things with much shorter term payoff.

    Let's not add new members faster than we can build a fleet big enough to defend them.
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    The Caitians and Rigellians are both likely to cross the 300 threshold with a single push, and major benefits start kicking in there. 20 pp is ridiculously cheap for that. In pp alone that is likely to repay itself in as little as 2 years, and we'd get the equivalent of an academy expansion and half a dozen research or mining colonies on top of that.

    We currently have 13+30+32=75 pp guaranteed for the next snake pit. Lets assume another 20 pp from the next two quarters, leaving us at 95. As of now I think I'd pick a refit (not sure whether Miranda or Constellation) and 5 diplomatic pushes.
     
    Artemis1992 said:
    The Amarki have their own ships and are capable of defending themselves. If we push diplomacy with them we have a chance to get their fleets behind us in a war and that's propably more than what we can build in a few years. Same for some other races.
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    And we'll probably have the Andorian shipyards and Utopia Planitia complete by then too.
     
    There's another good reason to refit all of our Constellations before we start in on the Renaissance: We aren't going to be able to replace all of our Constellations any way. The sooner we do the refit, the more likely we'll have it finished before it becomes relevant. One point can make a surprisingly big difference when everything is on the line.

    Also, pushing for more species to bexome affiliates is never a bad thing. "Hemming in the Cardassians" could also be called "preventing another Bajor". If we don't expand into that space, the Cardassians almost certainly will.

    1843
     
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    I think a refit in preperation makes sense. New ship takes far too long. We haven't even able to retire Soyuz yet and We have something like 2 centours right?
     
    I'm certainly massively in favor of pushing diplomacy as hard as we can, with both affiliates and close-to-affiliates, right now. Don't see any reason to try to refit the Constellations, too, they always seemed too dinky and inefficient to bother with if we can new-build better.
     
    Nix said:
    The Caitians and Rigellians are both likely to cross the 300 threshold with a single push, and major benefits start kicking in there. 20 pp is ridiculously cheap for that. In pp alone that is likely to repay itself in as little as 2 years, and we'd get the equivalent of an academy expansion and half a dozen research or mining colonies on top of that.

    We currently have 13+30+32=75 pp guaranteed for the next snake pit. Lets assume another 20 pp from the next two quarters, leaving us at 95. As of now I think I'd pick a refit (not sure whether Miranda or Constellation) and 5 diplomatic pushes.
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    Wouldnt it be more beneficial to get the new affiliates than to get the Caitians and Orion's above the 300 threshold?
     
    I honestly think that we should always be locked in at two diplomatic pushes per year, and for now that is the Amarki and the Betzoids.
     
    Yeangst said:
    Wouldnt it be more beneficial to get the new affiliates than to get the Caitians and Orion's above the 300 threshold?
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    Short term no. Affiliation doesn't do much at the 100 level, but is really good at the 300 level, and it will probably take several pushes (2 for the Indorians, 3 for the Syndraxians). In the long term, not clear. If it ends up making the difference between eventual integration and losing out on them yes, but I don't think that's very likely (maybe a 20% chance). But we can do both anyway.
     
    Sightsear said:
    Also, pushing for more species to bexome affiliates is never a bad thing. "Hemming in the Cardassians" could also be called "preventing another Bajor". If we don't expand into that space, the Cardassians almost certainly will.
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    Agreed. Preventing the Cardassians from expanding will alarm and anger them, but that's a lesser evil compared to allowing them to expand freely because they are racist pragmatist fanatics who think nothing of enslaving pre-warp societies.
     
    Hrm.

    We should get more light - non-Explorator - cruisers out. And probably start on the design process for hte Renaissance-class within the next 3-4 years.

    Why? Because they provide a lot of decent, mid-range power both for defense (which we will need more and more of, between the RBZ and the Cardassians) and for providing some measure of punch so we don't have to constantly peel our high-profile Explorers off exploring duty when stuff starts to burst into flame.

    The Renaissance in particular is a great blend of stats, crew cost and resource cost for what it does, and if we spend some time further refining her could very well be our mainstay light cruiser for the next 40 years. At P4 D5, they're *excellent* peacekeeper vessels. And they're cheap! They are really cheap at 100 BR 80 SR compared to the extreme costs of an Excelsior (230 br / 150 sr), a ship that has the *same* P/D stats!

    Similarly, we should build more Centaurs - at P2 D2 they're excellent low level peacekeepers, appreciated by all for the solid, if unexceptional, protection they provide.


    TLDR: I still think that Lone Ranger is a terrible doctrine for us and we would be much better served by Combined Arms :V
     
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    aeqnai said:
    Don't see any reason to try to refit the Constellations, too, they always seemed too dinky and inefficient to bother with if we can new-build better.
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    Do note that we haven't even managed to phase out all of the Soyuz class yet, and that's only 4 escorts! Budgeting the replacement of 7 cruisers isn't in the cards, especially if we keep pushing explorers. Although I think we've almost hit our quota on those?

    1844
     
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    D9nt forget people that the Cardassians are gonna go full espionage on top of diplomacy screwage to try to hamper the Federation as much as possible. Iirc Fed humint is rather abysmal which limits the ability to counter Cardassian agents.
     
    Briefvoice said:
    Vulcan and Betazoid Relations
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    I fully understand why Stesk is so oriented towards Peace, and I sympathize with him. Unfortunately, his actions, and those like him, will only end up causing more harm than good when the Federation inevitably encounters groups such as the Borg and the Dominion. The Borg cannot be negotiated with, and the Dominion will only negotiate either from a position of overwhelming strength, or when they have no other option.
     
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