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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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[X] Accept the Pacifist Proposal (Earmarks 100pp)

We want most of these things eventually, and this does them with an efficient use of PP. The fear of the Yrillians is rational of them, however we do need to pry them into our orbit and they have a society that is politically compatible with the Federation.
 
anon_user said:
Silly suggestion: mollify them by suggesting hiring Yrillian privateers to harass Sydraxian shipping!
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Sydraxian-sponsored privateers go into the Federation disguised as cargo haulers to grab some easy victims, notice that risking their lives isn't worth it, enjoy Fed life, Yrillian pirate problem vanishes :)

Fed-sponsored (not that any not!Section31 people would ever do that) Yrillian pirates go into Sydraxian space, find only misery, return to Fed space and don't want to return...
 
Even though I don't really dislike the pacifist option I have a hard time of making sense of it in-universe. It looks like it represents Starfleet lobbying the Federation Council into building shipyards for member worlds with some federation level budget, even though member shipyards are usually supposed to be built with member budgets? That seems to be going a bit beyond normal pork-barrel spending, which is generally at least nominally spent on things that are a federal responsibility in the first place.
 
No new colonies is too steep a price, especially as we are just about to complete T4 Colony Cores, so no to the Developers' plan.

The Pacifists' Constellation refit looks excellent and I would be happy to vote for it in the Snakepit (though maybe not immediately, if the front page is up to date we still have quite a few Mirandas to refit.)

But we are already building a Starbase and a Shipyard at Betazed, I don't think we need any more in the area. And if we want to build another Starbase around there, I would prefer Gaen. On the whole, too many items I don't want.

[X] Retract the proposals (0pp)
 
I think the secruity risk is getting a bit overblown by Linderly since it is not like we want to replace all of our shipping with yrillian ships. It should be relatively easy to keep them away from our more sensitive/secret productions and use them primarily for simple things like shipping ressources from our mines to Sol etc. (And they should also present a perfect opportunity to feed the Cardassians false information...). And considering the multi-ethnic make-up of the Federation, its considerable civilian shipping and its freuen media ideology I have serious doubts that a powerful nation like the Cardassians won't find other ways to get that information anyhow.

Plus they will likely be quite busy trying to counter our (intellegience) operations in Yrillia (and maybe the sydraxian hegemony) for quite some time since I doubt that expected a move like that.
 
Well I feel genuinely bad about this. Always hate it when I push something that seems like a good idea, but it lands with a thud. I think this could probably have been killed just with a strong pushback froom the NPCs regardless of cost, so both is a one-two punch.

@OneirosTheWriter are there actually any potential benefits to come out of this whole thing if the deal was pushed through?
 
Gingganz said:
No new colonies is too steep a price, especially as we are just about to complete T4 Colony Cores, so no to the Developers' plan.

The Pacifists' Constellation refit looks excellent and I would be happy to vote for it in the Snakepit (though maybe not immediately, if the front page is up to date we still have quite a few Mirandas to refit.)

But we are already building a Starbase and a Shipyard at Betazed, I don't think we need any more in the area. And if we want to build another Starbase around there, I would prefer Gaen. On the whole, too many items I don't want.

[X] Retract the proposals (0pp)
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Gaen could easily turn into its own sector considering its location and economic power...
 
Nix said:
Even though I don't really dislike the pacifist option I have a hard time of making sense of it in-universe. It looks like it represents Starfleet lobbying the Federation Council into building shipyards for member worlds with some federation level budget, even though member shipyards are usually supposed to be built with member budgets? That seems to be going a bit beyond normal pork-barrel spending, which is generally at least nominally spent on things that are a federal responsibility in the first place.
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In non-America countries, the Federal government often contributes large sums of funding to infrastructure projects at a local level. What this seems to me to be is a Councillor puts forth a bill that's obviously made for their constituents only, or petitions a committee to release funds for a local project, and Starfleet lines up to support it as it goes through the process.

Starfleet may not be involved at all in putting forth the proposals or the funding. But the Admiral or her subordinates may be consulted by committee or by the Council as a whole on starship-related or military-related matters, and can use her influence there to only speak to good things about such a project. The intricacies of shipyards or starbases are likely lost on the Council as a whole, so it's pretty easy to spin things as the designated expert on the subject.
 
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Erandil said:
I think the secruity risk is getting a bit overblown by Linderly since it is not like we want to replace all of our shipping with yrillian ships. It should be relatively easy to keep them away from our more sensitive/secret productions and use them primarily for simple things like shipping ressources from our mines to Sol etc. (And they should also present a perfect opportunity to feed the Cardassians false information...). And considering the multi-ethnic make-up of the Federation, its considerable civilian shipping and its freuen media ideology I have serious doubts that a powerful nation like the Cardassians won't find other ways to get that information anyhow.

Plus they will likely be quite busy trying to counter our (intellegience) operations in Yrillia (and maybe the sydraxian hegemony) for quite some time since I doubt that expected a move like that.
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Linderley is overworked to the extreme as it is. Remember how Romulans learned about our bleeding edge prototype cruiser from Federation version of the Internet? Or how nobody bothered to even pretend they don't know Renaissance is building where it is while they were looking at it?
Point is, poor sod needs a break, so if he asks for something, we should give it.
 
Briefvoice said:
@OneirosTheWriter are there actually any potential benefits to come out of this whole thing if the deal was pushed through?
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Diplo push Yrillia as if they were an affiliate.

Erandil said:
(And they should also present a perfect opportunity to feed the Cardassians false information...)
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I did try to show how Linderley approached it from a Counter-Intel angle, while Sulu did from a HUMINT angle. Everyone has their own agenda.
 
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Erandil said:
Gaen could easily turn into its own sector considering its location and economic power...
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Well, yes, but Gaen, Betazed and New Soeul are still very close. I won't claim to understand all the ins and outs of this quest, so maybe it is wrong-headed, but it seems to me that we don't need three starbases next to each other.

On a different note, I don't think we should feel too badly about our proposition failing. We had some sensible reasons for it, the Council had some sensible reasons against it, and if I estimate our votes correctly we will drop it. Just something that happens in a sytem that has multiple powers.
 
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Yeah, if it can't do something to fundamentally alter the relationship of Yrillia and the Federation then I have a hard time making a case for it. If this could keep them out of a war, it might be worth it.
 
I'm not in the least opposed to multiple close starbases. Granted, Gaen, Betazed, and New Soul are not the ideal examples because there are no major powers threatening in that direction. But as an example, SB9 at Lapycorias would be a lot more viable as a defensive position if we had a starbase at Indoria too. You don't just make one strong point, a network of strong points is better. What's the next fall-back after Lapycorias? Rethelia, which is just as exposed? Apinae? Close starbases make it so you can actually hold a front rather than having one point fall then doing a week or two of withdrawal.
 
Briefvoice said:
Yeah, if it can't do something to fundamentally alter the relationship of Yrillia and the Federation then I have a hard time making a case for it. If this could keep them out of a war, it might be worth it.
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OneirosTheWriter said:
Diplo push Yrillia as if they were an affiliate.
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A yearly diplopush without having to spend pp is good, but... it's not really worth it, imo. It might also take too long to have any noticeable effect.
 
Briefvoice said:
Yeah, if it can't do something to fundamentally alter the relationship of Yrillia and the Federation then I have a hard time making a case for it. If this could keep them out of a war, it might be worth it.
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Well considering he says it allows us to do "normal" diplo pushes against them (which in turn means binding them closer to the Federation) I think we can suspect that without it those pushes might be impossible/far less effective so I think this option actually represents what you are looking for (though it will mean more investment). Plus it means a continued diplomatic presence there which should/might be enough to prevent the Cardassians from getting to them.

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
I'm not in the least opposed to multiple close starbases. Granted, Gaen, Betazed, and New Soul are not the ideal examples because there are no major powers threatening in that direction. But as an example, SB9 at Lapycorias would be a lot more viable as a defensive position if we had a starbase at Indoria too. You don't just make one strong point, a network of strong points is better. What's the next fall-back after Lapycorias? Rethelia, which is just as exposed? Apinae? Close starbases make it so you can actually hold a front rather than having one point fall then doing a week or two of withdrawal.
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Well such a base system might be useful in a conflict with the Roms so they might well become useful in the future (since I for one still don' really trust them to not backstab us if given the opportunity).

However I also think that the n/ne region is one of the few areas of space where we are likely able to expand into without running into too much interference by other actors and if the current developments are anything to go by those system could quickly become central gateways between our new members and the rest of the Federation.
 
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It's a little hilarious how Sulu somehow has finagled intelligence assets under his command when he's the head of SF Tactical. How exactly does he manage dragging them around with him when he swaps commands? If it weren't Sulu himself it would honestly be disturbing.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
In non-America countries, the Federal government often contributes large sums of funding to infrastructure projects at a local level. What this seems to me to be is a Councillor puts forth a bill that's obviously made for their constituents only, or petitions a committee to release funds for a local project, and Starfleet lines up to support it as it goes through the process.
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I wasn't particuarly speaking from an American perspective. I don't think the German federal budget would pay for an entirely new Landesstraße, or a Landes- anything, or the Japanese national budget for a kenritsu- anything. If the federal/national budget pays for it it's going to be a Bundes- /kokuritsu thing, even if some of the same types of things can belong to either level. Sure, some infrastructure projects will be done by pooling funding from multiple levels, but but I don't think the combination of being explicitly a lower level responsibility, being mostly or entirely funded at the top level and being operated entirely by the lower level is something that generally happens. At least not in such an ad hoc way. A general program to support member shipbuilding infrastructure that runs over multiple years and picks candidate projects according to some at least supposedly objective criteria would make a bit more sense.
 
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Nix said:
I wasn't particuarly speaking from an American perspective. I don't think the German federal budget would pay for an entirely new Landesstraße, or a Landes- anything, or the Japanese national budget for a kenritsu- anything. If the federal/national budget pays for it it's going to be a Bundes- /kokuritsu thing, even if some of the same types of things can belong to either level. Sure, some infrastructure projects will be done by pooling funding from multiple levels, but but I don't think the combination of being explicitly a lower level responsibility, being mostly or entirely funded at the top level and being operated entirely by the lower level is something that generally happens.
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The city I live in has an entire list of projects by quantity of outside funding that would be required for them to go ahead. Generally they look to local, provincial, and federal levels each provide 1/3 for major infrastructure projects, including major roads, transit, and so on.

In the case of a starbase or berth, it's likely that the local government or fleet has a project on the books but would not approve the project unless it received a fair proportion of outside funding. That's not to say that it would be paid for entirely by Council-level funds, but 1/3 agency, 1/3 member, 1/3 Council is not out of the question? Or even 1/2 member 1/2 Council? But these projects would not even make it past the drawing board without a funding agreement from the federal level.
 
[X] Retract the proposals (0pp)

Yeah, wasn't a huge fan of the idea in the first place, and the perspectives from Linderly and Sulu alone are enough for me to say we just let it drop. If @OneirosTheWriter says it costs 0pp to just drop it, I take him at his word; he doesn't seem like the sort who would say "you can just drop this for no cost" and then sucker-punch us later. Sousa was doing the smart thing and asking for opinions; frankly, I can't see her really losing face for hearing multiple people basically saying "eeeeehhhhh I'm not so sure" and deciding "welp, fair enough, matter dropped".
 
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