[X][SOE] Arrange for an SoE immediately following a Cardassian guarantee for Celos
[X][SFTF1] Support Operations on Celos
[X][STFT2] Hunt and Destroy Syndicate Space forces
[X][UETF] Support Operations on Freedom
[X][ATF] Escort shipping
[X][CBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 9 at Lapycorias
[X][SBZ] Focus on defence of Square 0d
[X][DIPLO] Request the Indorians send their forces to Starbase 9 at Lapycorias
 
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[X][SOE] Arrange for an SoE immediately following a Cardassian guarantee for Celos.
[X][SFTF1] Support Operations on Celos
[X][STFT2] Hunt and Destroy Syndicate Space forces
[X][UETF] Support Operations on Freedom
[X][ATF] Escort shipping
[X][CBZ] Skirmish with Cardassian ships
[X][SBZ] Focus on defence of Square 0d
[X][DIPLO] Request the Indorians send their forces to Starbase 9 at Lapycorias
 
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Leila, if the Cardassians guarantee Celos but don't invade in force, we win massively. If they DO invade in force, then THAT should be the trigger for the State of Emergency where Sousa appoints herself temporary dictator for the duration of the crisis. Not the Cardassian declaration itself. Especially since the Cardassians themselves aren't going to care much about the difference between High Alert and SoE.

If the Cardassians hit us with a puny pinprick, or don't invade at all, there is no emergency to declare. Not on a Federation-wide scale.

There's just one planet, and a Cardassian sympathy card that will be small consolation as T'Lorel orbitphasers their coup government into oblivion.

At the risk of coming off as being too blunt, I think that's waaay too naive, and way too risky.

I think you're underestimating Cardassians as a totalitarian regime that puts a lot of actual stock in appearances. While you're right that Cardassians declaring for Celos, but not invading, would be a coup for us, it actually makes it very unlikely from Cardassian perspective.

They're not stupid. Lying fascist spoonheads they might be, but it isn't actually rocket science to understand how weak it might make them look. If they fail to follow through on their open promise, the image of Union suffers, and Federation gets a free diplomatic card of "CARDASSIA PROMISES YOU THINGS; DOESN'T FOLLOW THROUGH. UNLIKE US." It's going to leave them even more politically isolated, in addition to showing their hand that they're willing to oppose us.

They literally stand nothing to gain from doing what you're implying, and from their own perspective no less, hence why I find it uncompelling. I mean, it is not an absolute certainty, but the odds don't make me want to take that bet.

What I like about the option I was going for - and what Leila and Derek alike put in - is that we will already have the groundwork done for declaring the SOE, and in war the side that can generally process situation faster tends to have an advantage. If they actually decide to bow out and do nothing, then the whole thing doesn't go anywhere.

Again, I'm remain unconvinced of throwing away reaction/marshaling advantage over plausible-but-nebulous high ground.

And if Cardassians actually declare for Celos, but end up not being in position to support it, well tough shit; they'll have to deal with our home fleets rolling out. Which can be still transmuted into political advantage.

"Hello there friends. We heard you want to be friends with Cardassians. But we're asking you to reconsider. Consider Celos. Cardassians meddled in our affairs to support it, actually failed to follow through with their word, and ended up irresponsibly getting into a war unprepared. Is that kind of ally going to protect you? Are they worth dying over?

Also, consider we don't take protection payments."
 
If the Cardassians actually invade, a State of Emergency is implied. But it's also far too late. Given that the Cardassian guarantee for Celos is effectively a declaration of war, we should react accordingly. To see their declaration of war and respond with no increased mobilization until their ships are actively crossing our border is to cede to them the strategic momentum; they'll be in a position to actively attack and destroy our infrastructure before we even have it on a war footing.

I don't find Simon's argument compelling; if the Cardassians are going to make a guarantee, they're going to back up that guarantee. Making it without backing it up would just make them lose face, again, and they know that... and given recent events, they don't have enough credibility to afford to lose more.

[X]Derek58

has the right idea, I think. It's slightly too early for the SoE right now, but waiting for an actual invasion is far too late. The moment for that is if/when the Cardassians make their guarantee.

I'd really like some kind of diplo option to indicate this position to the Cardassians, though. If only via shouting comms in their general direction to formally state that we will interpret a guarantee of Celos as equivalent to a declaration of war against the Federation, and will respond accordingly.
Pray tell, What "Infrastructure"? All our major installations are on the far side of the Federation from the Cardassians. So what infrastructure are you so worried about? Other than a few mining colonies and outposts, there's very little out there for them to strike towards, and given the sheer amount of space involved, a day or two may not make much difference.

And if you want to warn off the Cardassians? Bite the damn bullet and eat your Militarization like a man.
 
[X][SOE] Do not request a State of Emergency
[X][SFTF1] Support Operations on Celos
[X][STFT2] Hunt and Destroy Syndicate Space forces
[X][UETF] Support Operations on Freedom
[X][ATF] Escort shipping
[X][CBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 9 at Lapycorias
[X][SBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 8 at Vega
[X][DIPLO] Remain focused on Sydraxians

Team Federation, we play this our way, not their way. Especially as Admiral good at politics and appearances.
 
Pray tell, What "Infrastructure"? All our major installations are on the far side of the Federation from the Cardassians. So what infrastructure are you so worried about? Other than a few mining colonies and outposts, there's very little out there for them to strike towards, and given the sheer amount of space involved, a day or two may not make much difference.

And if you want to warn off the Cardassians? Bite the damn bullet and eat your Militarization like a man.
There are a couple shipyards and 1 research station along the border. If its war the research station has to be evacuated ASAP to keep the research out of Cardassian hands. Then there are 2 Starbases and 3 Stations also along the border so yes there is a lot of stuff that the Cardassians can hit.
 
If the Cardassians Guarantee Celos' independance and we then knock Celos over, what are they gonna do about it?

A Cardassian invasion would, in fact, force us to pull a lot of ships off of the Syndicate campaign. If the Dawiar let them stage the attack from their space, they actually COULD strike at the Orion Union directly unless we've pulled enough ships spinward to intercept them.
 
That is completely misrepresenting the not declaring a SoE option.

Not declaring one is just that: we don't declare one right now or if the Cardassians give Celos a promise of independence. It most certainly doesn't mean that we won't declare one if the Cardassians decide to try and back that promise with lots of force or do something else crazy aggressive.
But is it, though? Do we recognize the Republic of Celos as a lawful power, just because they have de facto control over the planet? The Celosians are in full rebellion towards an affiliate of the Federation. Unless I severely misunderstood the affiliate agreement, his should mean that they are effectively at war with the Federation itself. If the Cardassians ally themselves with a faction that is at war with us, we need to immediately respond; not doing so is tantamount to recognizing the authority of the Celosian rebellion and giving the strong impression that we are unwilling to face another power on our weight class bullying one of our affiliates.

Frankly, what are you expecting from not reacting to Cardassian interference on one of our affiliates? If you were, say, the Indorian government, would you feel that this is good because it shows that the Federation does not intervene within the member governments' sphere of influence or that the Federation would be unwilling to defend you from Cardassian, Romulan or Klingon patsies?
 
[X][SOE] Arrange for an SoE immediately following a Cardassian guarantee for Celos
[X][SFTF1] Support Operations on Celos
[X][STFT2] Hunt and Destroy Syndicate Space forces
[X][UETF] Support Operations on Freedom
[X][ATF] Escort shipping
[X][CBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 9 at Lapycorias
[X][SBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 8 at Vega
[X][DIPLO] Remain focused on Sydraxians


Yeah, these people are right. The Cardassians won't guarantee and do nothing. That flies in the face of all the Cardassian xenopsych we know. And we can't afford to give the impression that we aren't going to respond.
 
[X][SOE] Arrange for an SoE immediately following a Cardassian guarantee for Celos
[X][SFTF1] Support Operations on Celos
[X][STFT2] Hunt and Destroy Syndicate Space forces
[X][UETF] Support Operations on Freedom
[X][ATF] Escort shipping
[X][CBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 9 at Lapycorias
[X][SBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 8 at Vega
[X][DIPLO] Remain focused on Sydraxians
 
[X][SOE] Arrange for an SoE immediately following a Cardassian guarantee for Celos

This maximizes the chance of an acceptable peace (no guarantee or Cardassia backing down after issuing one) at the cost of 1. replacing the chance much less acceptable peace (Federation backs down or compromise) with war and 2. a very minor chance of starting mobilization that ultimately does not end up being needed (in case the Cardassians back down after all). The chance of the Cardassians issuing the declaration and then backing down is so small that it doesn't really make sense to analyze it too deeply, but there isn't any particular reason to think mobilization will make it less likely, at least without also being a much stronger reason to need to mobilize in any case. It's vaguely possible they have a (not very close) analogue of Imperial Germany's Schliefen Plan and believe odds of winning are much lower if they delay until we mobilized just like Russia mobilizing made Germany see a need to strike right then, but that would also imply that delaying mobilization would be a really bad idea if war starts anyway like it very likely would.
 
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If the Cardassians Guarantee Celos' independance and we then knock Celos over, what are they gonna do about it? Are they going to try the kind of deep-penetration attacks that would be needed to seriously support Celos? Or are they just gonna use that as an excuse to ramp up activity around the borders? Losing a couple of days of 'State of Emergency' if they declare full-up war may make a difference, but we don't want to leave the enemy no room to back down and retreat if they jump out preemptively. Voting for the State of Emergency as soon as they declare their support is throwing down the gauntlet. Even if the Cardassians have second thoughts, it's War Time Now.

Not necessarily. Although we might not want to go to full SoE right this instant, being at an SoE does offer some advantages that would really help here.

Specifically, I'm thinking of the extra Diplomatic pressure we can exert with SoE-level diplo teams. Though somewhat unorthodox, we might go full SoE... and then throw as much weight as we can into full diplomatic pressure, pushing the Cardassians with our highest-level diplo teams in our most powerful ships towards wherever their intervention forces are massing, in an attempt to actually talk things out before the war actually starts. Not to mention doing similar diplomatic pushes against other races in the area, to maintain control of the narrative and weaken their position.

Naturally, the fact that we choose to fight with words doesn't mean they have to respond with words. If they want a war, they'll get one. Just bear in mind that an SoE isn't a purely militant act, and that the political resources we get as a result are probably more significant than the military ones.

Pray tell, What "Infrastructure"? All our major installations are on the far side of the Federation from the Cardassians. So what infrastructure are you so worried about? Other than a few mining colonies and outposts, there's very little out there for them to strike towards, and given the sheer amount of space involved, a day or two may not make much difference.

And if you want to warn off the Cardassians? Bite the damn bullet and eat your Militarization like a man.

The most critical of our infrastructure is further away, true. But if it does come down to war, I'd rather that we not leave our scientists, miners, shipyards, and allies at the mercy of a massed Cardassian fleet. The difference in mobilization is like this: if we start by pulling up member fleets and such to guard the most important sites ahead of time, those forces will be massed and in position to intercept Cardassian attacks. Otherwise, we see their fleets coming in, panic at the last moment, and those same fleets get to chase the Cardassians down after they've blasted our facilities and murdered our people.

But yeah, I wouldn't be against an SoE now, either. We can afford the Militarization, after all. That's not a popular opinion, though, and it still does feel a bit too early yet.
 
[X][SOE] Request a State of Emergency now
[X][STFT1] Picket Federation Border
[X][STFT2] Picket Federation Border
[X][UETF] Conduct blockade at Celos
[X][ATF] Conduct blockade at Celos
[X][CBZ] Skirmish with Cardassian ships
[X][SBZ] Skirmish aggressively
[X][DIPLO] Request the Qloath to try to hunt the Cardassian Frontier Ships
 
[X][SOE] Arrange for an SoE immediately following a Cardassian guarantee for Celos
[X][SFTF1] Support Operations on Celos
[X][STFT2] Hunt and Destroy Syndicate Space forces
[X][UETF] Support Operations on Freedom
[X][ATF] Escort shipping
[X][CBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 9 at Lapycorias.


These few, I definitely agree with. The CBZ, SBZ & DIPLO options, I don't feel knowledgable enough to comment on. It's really only the SOE vote I'm uncertain of. I'll have to consider it a little longer.
I'd ideally like something between the 'no declaration' and 'immediately following guarantee', along the lines of 'Inform Council of possible short-notice activation of SoE following a Cardassian guarantee for Celos', as I'd prefer not to apply conditions to an automatic activation in case of unforeseen circumstances. On the other hand, if the Cardassians do move in, that would be cause for one...

Edit: OK, I'm going to go with my first instinct, as added above
This could almost certainly be justified to the Council in the unlikely event that the SoE ends up being superfluous.

Edit 2: I am in agreement with later arguments re: not skirmishing with the Cardassians, so voting for an alternative there, too.
 
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For the whole "what if the Cardassians declare for Celos but then don't do anything" argument...look.

When people make mistakes, its not usually because they went out of their way to do something stupid for no reason at all. Its because they were TRYING to do one thing, but due to either incompetence or ignorance of relevant factors ended up doing another.

Let's take what we can probably all agree was the Cardassian Union's biggest (or at least most visible) fuckup thus far, the Kadak-Tor incident. There were at least three points of failure there.


Point A:

Intent: The Cardassians commissioned the Kadak-Tor because they wanted to alpha strike their enemies with an invisible heavy cruiser.

Why It Failed: The Cardassians failed to adequately vet the ship's commanding officers, and had a culture that made defection to the Federation seem appealing to some within their military.


Point B:

Intent: The Cardassians tried to hunt down the Kadak-Tor before it could reach Federation space.

Why It Failed: space is big, the Kadak-Tor is fast and stealthy, and Miran knew enough about Cardassian fleet positions to get a good head start.


Point C:

Intent: The Cardassians told their clients that the Kadak-Tor had malfunctioned with a VIP aboard, because telling them the truth would mean letting the Federation find out as well. They hoped to destroy the Kadak-Tor before their lie could be exposed.

Why It Failed: The Cardassians were unable to destroy the Kadak-Tor, and so they were caught in a lie to their clients when the truth came out.


Now, what would be the "Intent" of declaring for Celos without planning to enforce it? What would their ideal outcome for that action be before any failure points appear?
 
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@Leila Hann
It's less that they'd not plan on enforcing it, more us negating the attempt by taking it back before they could do anything.

[x][SOE] Arrange for an SoE immediately following a Cardassian guarantee for Celos
[X][SFTF1] Support Operations on Celos
[X][STFT2] Hunt and Destroy Syndicate Space forces
[X][UETF] Support Operations on Freedom
[X][ATF] Escort shipping
[X][CBZ] Skirmish with Cardassian ships
[X][SBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 8 at Vega
[X][DIPLO] Request the Indorians send their forces to Starbase 9 at Lapycorias

Seeing as this is task voting, I'm going with Simon's plan, with the contingent SoE edited in.
 
There are a couple shipyards and 1 research station along the border. If its war the research station has to be evacuated ASAP to keep the research out of Cardassian hands. Then there are 2 Starbases and 3 Stations also along the border so yes there is a lot of stuff that the Cardassians can hit.
Wow, we would need to evacuate a research station-that'll take what, a runnabout and a couple of hours to load all the staff onboard? And our starbases aren't weak-they're fortresses! We've never seen them in combat, but they're immobile and still have D5. Upgraded outposts have C8-Short of putting together a Mobile Task Force and blitzing them with a significant portion of their fleet, the Cardassians can't overrun even the standard type easily.

On the other hand, people are clearly chomping at the bit for a chance to declare war and escalate tensions, so there's that as well. Maybe myself and other members of the 'no State of Emergency' coalition should bow out. People seem to have forgotten that 'If they do X, we'll do Y' was how WW1 started.
 
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Regarding @Simon_Jester's point about this not being a Biophage-level event, I think that, while there is no individual current event that reaches such a level, there are crises on so many fronts (Celos, other ongoing ASTF stuff such as Freedom, the Sydraxian border and the imminent Klingon/Romulan war on our opposite border) that collectively add up. It may not be existential in the same way as the Biophage, but the entire quadrant(s) could easily be about to erupt into conflict.
 
[X][SOE] Arrange for an SoE immediately following a Cardassian guarantee for Celos
[X][SFTF1] Support Operations on Celos
[X][STFT2] Hunt and Destroy Syndicate Space forces
[X][UETF] Support Operations on Freedom
[X][ATF] Escort shipping
[X][CBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 9 at Lapycorias
[X][SBZ] Focus on defence of Square 0d
[X][DIPLO] Remain focused on Sydraxians
 
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[X][SOE] Arrange for an SoE immediately following a Cardassian guarantee for Celos.
[X][SFTF1] Support Operations on Celos.
[X][SFTF2] Hunt and Destroy Syndicate Space forces.
[X][UETF] Support operations on Freedom
[X][ATF] Escort Shipping
[X][CBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 9 at Lapycorias.
[X][SBZ] Focus on defence of Square 0d
[X][DIPLO] Remain focused on Sydraxians
 
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I've considered the SOE in detail, and both sides had good arguments, but ultimately I am swayed by the idea that Cardassia would never publicly declare for Celos and then fail to back it up, and allowing them to get too much of a leg up on us in waiting for SOE until they actually invade could result in more destroyed ships. I really like the arrangement of our forces in Orion space that @Simon_Jester has been pushing, so I'll vote for all of those. Now what about our border ships?

For the CBZ fleet, I'm not seeing a strong argument to engage with the Cardassians. Let them come to us if they want, and we'll meet them in the shadow of our Starbase. For the Sydraxian Border Zone forces, though, I see Tales Har as vulnerable in a way it ordinarily wouldn't be. The Amarkia have virtually their entire fleet mucking around down in Orion space. We need to stop Sydraxian raiders heading in the take advantage, and to do that we need to be at 0d rather than at Vega. (Not that I expect to win this one; everyone seems to be voting Vega for some reason.)

For Diplomacy, the Indorians are already very close to Starbase 9. I'm not sure there's that much time saved by pushing them to go there, especially since I'm already voting to have the CBZ fleet form up there in defense. So I'm going to vote for continuing talks with the Sydraxians, because keeping them out of a war would be hugely helpful.

[X][SOE] Arrange for an SoE immediately following a Cardassian guarantee for Celos
[X][SFTF1] Support Operations on Celos
[X][STFT2] Hunt and Destroy Syndicate Space forces
[X][UETF] Support Operations on Freedom
[X][ATF] Escort shipping
[X][CBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 9 at Lapycorias
[X][SBZ] Focus on defence of Square 0d
[X][DIPLO] Remain focused on Sydraxians
 
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Regarding @Simon_Jester's point about this not being a Biophage-level event, I think that, while there is no individual current event that reaches such a level, there are crises on so many fronts (Celos, other ongoing ASTF stuff such as Freedom, the Sydraxian border and the imminent Klingon/Romulan war on our opposite border) that collectively add up. It may not be existential in the same way as the Biophage, but the entire quadrant(s) could easily be about to erupt into conflict.
Which is exactly why I'm opposed to hard and rigid 'we declare war if they do X' statements because wars have their own momentum. Set one off, even for the best of intentions, and there are No Takebacks. "Arrange for an SoE immediately following a Cardassian guarantee for Celos." is not a moderate middle road here-it's a hard line and it cannot be un-crossed once it has been breached. It may save a few ships in the short term, but the long term consequences are literally incalculable.
 
Regarding @Simon_Jester's point about this not being a Biophage-level event, I think that, while there is no individual current event that reaches such a level, there are crises on so many fronts (Celos, other ongoing ASTF stuff such as Freedom, the Sydraxian border and the imminent Klingon/Romulan war on our opposite border) that collectively add up. It may not be existential in the same way as the Biophage, but the entire quadrant(s) could easily be about to erupt into conflict.

An excellent point, and one that's been overlooked so far. Remember that our past intel analyses on the Klingon/Romulan front have been pretty solid on the fact that those two powers are waiting for a Federation/Cardassian war to get started with their own war. Given that, we should note that if the Cardassians seem to be starting a war, that might be all it takes to convince either of the other empires that we're too busy to do anything in the Beta Quadrant now. That's a war that's been coming for a long time, and we should keep in mind that it's quite likely to start in response to any large-scale hostilities with the Cardassians.
 
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