Starfleet Design Bureau

The engineering isn't done when there's nothing left to add, it's done when there's nothing left to take away.

Brig. Tractor beam. Transporter. That's all you really need to tell random civilian ships to heave to, and search them and arrest people.
 
So, the only downside of taking all of them is that the ship is slightly less maneuverable during combat, right? The cost is pretty much the same either way? Though I guess if crew requirements are significantly increased that is something; the cargo bay would presumably use a lot less crew than the transporter room though so I'm not sure how to evaluate it.

What's the actual downside/reason procurement wouldn't want to take an all-5 utility setup?

Ignoring that concern though, I'm leaning towards taking everything but the shuttles. Cargo is only marginally useful but it provides that marginal utility in enough circumstances that I think it's worth it.
 
It takes a bit of mental readjustment to realise that in an age of sail context that an arrest is likely to consist more of an instruction to "stand to" and reluctantly doing so rather than legging it. There isn't the parity of equipment that lets a civilian ship match the capabilities of a purpose-built enforcement or military starship. It's like if every police car is a supercharged landspeed record challenger. But bulletproof, covered in reactive armor, and sporting a pair of popup rotary cannons behind the headlights. People would stop trying to duck them when they get flashed because they know there's no way they get away.

Or in the age of sail when a smuggler isn't fast enough to outrun the navy, they surrender. Because the navy has cannons and marines, and it's better to gamble on clemency from the courts than with your lives. It's when you know you won't get clemency that things get dangerous, but it's also when in the Age of Sail you're such a nusiance you'll be facing a naval squadron with a mission to put you down rather than patrollers. Or, in the context of Trek, the Constitution-class was the death-knell for pirates in Federation space. They represented a capability and firepower gap that changed the game even for well-established pirate operations like the Orion Syndicate.
The sticking point, at least for me, is not how a stop plays out, it's what do you do when in the course of a stop you figure out that you have a cargo you want to impound in whole or in part, but a crew you don't want to detain, or of whom you only want to detain some but not all? If in that situation you don't have a cargo bay, but have to keep the cargo on the seized ship, you're also stuck detaining the whole crew at least for the duration of the trip to the nearest station. And at that point the crew has some very real civil rights concerns. I'm not a big believer in "take 'em all in, let God sort 'em out," and I don't think the Federation legal system is either.
 
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The Tellarites are working on a fast, nimble interceptor of around sixty thousand tons equipped with a forward phaser and a pair of docking hatches to port and starboard. Internally it promises to have a small brig for arrestees and a cargo bay for storing contraband. Very much a small rapid-response ship designed around regular inspections. Internally it is capable of warp 6, which is labeled as enough to outpace most civilian ships.

The Denobulans have gone slightly larger, running with eighty thousand tons capable of warp 6.8 and equipped with a pair of forward phasers. Designed more around chase-and-detain roles, it has an included forward tractor beam and a single-shuttle launch bay for independent boarding operations. It is designed to hold ships in place while other vessels arrive to take the crew into custody and deal with the cargo.
Equal the Tellarites:
[ ] 2: Cargo Bay (+10,000 Tons)
[ ] 3: Brig (+10,000 Tons)

Equal the Denobulans:
[ ] 0: Shuttlebay (+20,000 Tons)
[ ] 4: Tractor Beam (+10,000 Tons)

To that end it looks like we need to grab at least 3 of the 5 to get 3 points in the category and win the competition

Though brig-cargo seem like a good combo as otherwise you need a 2nd ship for one or both of the functions

So, the only downside of taking all of them is that the ship is slightly less maneuverable during combat, right? The cost is pretty much the same either way? Though I guess if crew requirements are significantly increased that is something; the cargo bay would presumably use a lot less crew than the transporter room though so I'm not sure how to evaluate it.

What's the actual downside/reason procurement wouldn't want to take an all-5 utility setup?

Ignoring that concern though, I'm leaning towards taking everything but the shuttles. Cargo is only marginally useful but it provides that marginal utility in enough circumstances that I think it's worth it.
Overall mass means less maneuverable when chasing also costs more overall so you make fewer of them
 
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[ ] Plan: Cop Car
-[ ] 0: No Shuttlebay
-[ ] 1: Transporter (+10,000 Tons)
-[ ] 2: No Cargo Bay
-[ ] 3: Brig (+10,000 Tons)
-[ ] 4: Tractor Beam (+10,000 Tons)

I'm not seeing this combination yet.

Shuttlebays are superfluous, Transporters allow for FAST reactions to things, and flexibility. Shuttles don't. We should be able to transport over investigators, while parking in a blind spot. This is a doctrine issue. If they're not powering down weapons/shields, then we shouldn't be transporting over anyways. If you have them in a shuttle, you now risk a shuttle in addition to the main ship if they go hostile.

Transporters are a must, especially w/out shuttle.

Cargo can be cut We can call another ship in-system to do that, or we tractor it.

Brigs are a must ,we will probably be using these for prison-transport as well as if we need to put large number of catured crew in detention.

Tractor Beams are a good option, both to tow ships, and to keep them from just running away.
You copied me, my guy.

This I think is a vote that calls for plan-voting.

[ ] Plan Ranger
-[ ] 0: No Shuttlebay
-[ ] 1: Transporter (+10,000 Tons)
-[ ] 2: No Cargo Bay
-[ ] 3: Brig (+10,000 Tons)
-[ ] 4: Tractor Beam (+10,000 Tons)
 
[ ] Plan Everything But The Mule
-[ ] 0: No Shuttlebay
-[ ] 1: Transporter (+10,000 Tons)
-[ ] 2: Cargo Bay (+10,000 Tons)
-[ ] 3: Brig (+10,000 Tons)
-[ ] 4: Tractor Beam (+10,000 Tons)
[ ] Plan Everything But The Mule

I like this, because in addition to Zimmerwald's concerns above, a Cargo Bay would also allow the ship to potentially stay on station for an extended period if needed - ie., it could have a secure section for storing evidence and/or contraband, while also having more general sections for provisions/supplies. This would extend its ability to operate away from a station on the edges of a system, or simply extend its patrol duration - either of which could be valuable.
 
Not quite in the era Trek typically apes, but the US coastguard vessels employed to hunt rum runners and other criminals didn't have superior manoeuvrability compared to their foes, what they did have was better handling and speed. Manoeuvrability isn't a killer here, especially if we have tractor beams.
 
Cargo Bays are absolutely needed for whenever there is a middle ground.
Pull over a ship and three of the crew are smuggling, unknown to the other 30? You can't impound the whole ship, you take those three and the stuff they hid.
Also, you absolutely need a specific spot to put the contraband.

"Just throw the evidence under my bed, it won't impact the case at all!" Is not a great look for any police force.

I know it's a cargo bay, but it would absolutely have clearly marked and locked sections to contain the evidence for each individual case. You can't just stuff that in random corners.

I'll be going
[ ] Plan Everything But The Mule
 
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Or, in the context of Trek, the Constitution-class was the death-knell for pirates in Federation space. They represented a capability and firepower gap that changed the game even for well-established pirate operations like the Orion Syndicate.
...so in-quest, we hit that point...what...eighty years early, just by getting the Cygnus class out there in quantity before the Orion Syndicate hit its 2150s-canon level of equipment, competency, organisation, and threat level in general? Maybe eighty-five?
...Starfleet would commission twenty eight starships of the Cygnus-class, practically all of which never set foot outside Federation-claimed space. But what they accomplished was nonetheless transformative.

The first task of the Cygnus was to completely expunge piracy from Federation territory, a task that had essentially been completed along the main trade lanes by the increased presence of the Andorian and Vulcan member fleets, both now willing to draw down longterm military deployments and redistribute them to constructive ends. But this did not account for the long-standing Naussican and Orion presences near the outer colonies, which were often subject to protection rackets and exploitation of the raw materials they produced. These were not the profit-focused and criminal enterprises of the Orion Syndicate that would necessarily come to characterise piracy in the 23rd century against the proactive response of Starfleet, and precisely because of this opportunistic and squatting lifestyle they proved unable to mount a real resistance.

Over the next five years, the first four vessels of the Cygnus-class apprehended over a dozen...
"ordinary" piracy had essentially been cleared from the main trade lanes by Andorian and Vulcan member fleets, but the first thing the Cygnus-class did was scour it from the rest of Federation space and shut down the Naussicans and Orions on the frontier, who were "unable to mount a real resistance".

Eighty years early.

Holy crap. I think the Cygnus is suddenly my favorite ship we've ever done so far. Eight decades of plunder, kidnapping, rape, and murder just...just stopped in its tracks. Talk about good work.

(Also, since the Orion Syndicate did still "come to characterize 23rd-century piracy", despite having been slapped down very firmly indeed very early on, I'm real curious who funded the necessary level of development for them to become a Starfleet-level threat by the mid-2200s, despite being two generations of Feddie frontier tribute and plunder poorer versus the canon Orions. Either they went real hard on whoever's on the other side of their territory, or they're somebody's catspaw...I wonder which.)
 
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I know it's a cargo bay, but it would absolutely have clearly marked and locked sections to contain the evidence for each individual case. You can't just stuff that in random corners.
My suggestion would be code locked crates or similar, that are tack-welded with phase pistols/hand phasers to the floor/a convenient bulkhead to guarantee they won't wander off while the ship's docked somewhere.
 
"Just throw the evidence under my bed, it won't impact the case at all!" Is not a great look for any police force.

I know it's a cargo bay, but it would absolutely have clearly marked and locked sections to contain the evidence for each individual case. You can't just stuff that in random corners.

Being a police vessel, and this being a quest that isn't overly concerned with granularity, would it really be too much of an assumption to believe that there would be evidence lockers installed even if there wasn't a cargo bay?
 
Equal the Tellarites:
[ ] 2: Cargo Bay (+10,000 Tons)
[ ] 3: Brig (+10,000 Tons)

Equal the Denobulans:
[ ] 0: Shuttlebay (+20,000 Tons)
[ ] 4: Tractor Beam (+10,000 Tons)

To that end it looks like we need to grab at least 3 of the 5 to get 3 points in the category and win the competition


Overall mass means less maneuverable when chasing also costs more overall so you make fewer of them
Yeah, but we're talking about a difference of a third here. Absolute minimum mass is 90,000 tons if we want to win the contest. Our maximum winning mass is 120,000 tons.

And seeing as how hull mass is the least expensive part of a ship's cost, the practical difference between them is pretty negligible. I'm perfectly fine with being half again the mass of the next largest entry for being able to have the ship able to do everything either competitor design does plus extra.
 
[ ] Plan Only One Ship Needed
-[ ] 0: No Shuttlebay
-[ ] 1: No Transporter
-[ ] 2: Cargo Bay (+10,000 Tons)
-[ ] 3: Brig (+10,000 Tons)
-[ ] 4: Tractor Beam (+10,000 Tons)

3 Features to the 2 the other contestants have should give us the victory. Meanwhile Cargo Bay (for impounded goods) and Brig (for prisoners) is to me a combo (and the tellarites agree because that is the 2 features there ship has). After that it came down to do we want a tractor to capture ships or one of the movement options in the shuttlebay or transporter and I figure get the tractor to stop ships from running

Being a police vessel, and this being a quest that isn't overly concerned with granularity, would it really be too much of an assumption to believe that there would be evidence lockers installed even if there wasn't a cargo bay?
Previous update mentions the Denobulan ship relies on another ship to take goods and people from ships it detains, while the tellarite ship has the cargo bay and brig and so does not need another ship (but lacks any of the three other options
 
(Also, since the Orion Syndicate did still "come to characterize 23rd-century piracy", despite having been slapped down very firmly indeed very early on, I'm real curious who funded the necessary level of development for them to become a Starfleet-level threat by the mid-2200s, despite being two generations of Feddie frontier tribute and plunder poorer versus the canon Orions. Either they went real hard on whoever's on the other side of their territory, or they're somebody's catspaw...I wonder which.)
My guess would be that it's a 50/50 on either more unscrupulous Klingon Great Houses, or the Romulans. Or, possibly, it's a bit of a Syria situation, where everyone who doesn't like the Federation has their own preferred branch of the Syndicate they're deniably bankrolling.
 
Meanwhile Cargo Bay (for impounded goods) and Brig (for prisoners) is to me a combo (and the tellarites agree because that is the 2 features there ship has).
How do you get contraband and prisoners aboard without either shuttles or a transporter? Direct docking (which exposes the ship to the one potential danger where the opponent might have parity: personal combat)? EVAs?
 
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With a little further thinking, perhaps part of why the brig is so big is that it also accounts for evidence lockers?

I feel that a cargo bay is made for, well... cargo. Large shipping containers, pallets of goods, not exactly just small stuff as could go in an evidence locker.
 
Being a police vessel, and this being a quest that isn't overly concerned with granularity, would it really be too much of an assumption to believe that there would be evidence lockers installed even if there wasn't a cargo bay?
Internally it promises to have a small brig for arrestees and a cargo bay for storing contraband

The Tel ship explicitly lists the cargo bay as for storing contraband.

And I see I got beaten to the punch above by Void Stalker :) glad we are on the same wave length.
 
Would lower mass would mean greater towing capacity? I mean, I'm sure there are a lot of factors that go into that, but having a lot more engine than you need for your mass seems like it would help.
 
How do you get contraband and prisoners aboard without either shuttles or a transporter? Direct docking (which exposes the ship to the one potential danger where the opponent might have parity: personal combat)? EVAs?
Tellarite ship docks with them to transfer them over so that is acceptable. You could do a plan removing the tractor for a shuttle bay if you want
With a little further thinking, perhaps part of why the brig is so big is that it also accounts for evidence lockers?

I feel that a cargo bay is made for, well... cargo. Large shipping containers, pallets of goods, not exactly just small stuff as could go in an evidence locker.
Cargo bay is for contraband goods

The Tellarites are working on a fast, nimble interceptor of around sixty thousand tons equipped with a forward phaser and a pair of docking hatches to port and starboard. Internally it promises to have a small brig for arrestees and a cargo bay for storing contraband. Very much a small rapid-response ship designed around regular inspections. Internally it is capable of warp 6, which is labeled as enough to outpace most civilian ships.
 
With a little further thinking, perhaps part of why the brig is so big is that it also accounts for evidence lockers?

I feel that a cargo bay is made for, well... cargo. Large shipping containers, pallets of goods, not exactly just small stuff as could go in an evidence locker.
A brig is just a cargo bay for Criminals, if its a small amount of contriband you could just throw it into an empty cell/locker. If its a large amount you probably should impound the ship.
 
I agree though that shuttles would be completely unnecessary if this thing can land (and only generally unnecessary if we had transporters).

My question is, and apologies if already covered, I'm just excited for this turn, what do Shuttles give us that Transporter don't?
Shuttles are the only force multiplier option on the list. If you need the ship to respond to another event, you can leave a couple of shuttles behind to support and extract the inspection team(s). Have shuttles you can launch sneak attacks on pirate bases while the ship draws attention away. Need an impromptu listening/observation post, deploy a shuttle.

Shuttlebays are superfluous, Transporters allow for FAST reactions to things, and flexibility. Shuttles don't. We should be able to transport over investigators, while parking in a blind spot. This is a doctrine issue. If they're not powering down weapons/shields, then we shouldn't be transporting over anyways. If you have them in a shuttle, you now risk a shuttle in addition to the main ship if they go hostile.
Transporters don't have the capability to do more than move people/items from point to point. Shuttles can act as observation posts, they can fly teams into locations that can't be reached by transporters, they can shuttleprisoners from the ship to shore without being in orbit, shuttles are flexible in a way transporters aren't. Plus all you have to do to upgrade a ships shuttle capability, is to put new shuttles on it.

You, uh, kinda copied my plan. Not that I disagree with your reasoning.
Great minds! Though I'm tempted to vote for the entire enchilada (beat the Denobulans in cost and have 5 utility options!) or drop Tractor beams in order to hit a slightly more maneuverable 100kt.
 
I think everyone is actually missing something here. Let me go grab a quote from the first part of Project Protector:
The competition itself will be judged based on three metrics: cost, tactical ability, and utility. The top-scoring design in each category will gain three points, while the bottom-scoring design will gain one. Each included utility function is worth one point, for a maximum of five. In the event of a tie, the design with the lowest cost will win. The cost is self-explanatory, folding both civilian and military spending into one metric. The tactical ability will be rated based on the main armament, which cannot include torpedoes. Utilities being sought are shuttles, transporters, tractor beams, and cargo.

Specifically, in the original post introducing us to Project Protector, there is zero mention of the brig (In the specific specifications of the contest). Now, there's an argument that we need a brig, and one that we don't. I actually, to a point, don't think we need a dedicated brig, though realistically it should be included because, well, it's a police/CG cutter. Let me explain through the use of another quote from the QM.

No, what you need to do is pick features that will synergize or cover for each other and exclude others. The Tellaries have an inspection ship, the Denobulans a pursuit ship. Both have strengths and weaknesses, capability gaps that can be exploited to take the prize. What is Earth offering?

So, essentially, the QM has all but flat out stated that taking all 5 options is going to be actively detrimental to us. What we need, as stated by the QM, is Design Synergy. Thus, we have to break down the five options into things that have exceptional synergy... or do the thing both do better than the other does.

With that in mind, honestly, my thought is that we just... do what the Telleries and the Denobulans did better than either of them did... which we do simply via virtue of a single nacelle Type 3 for the latter, and by including the correct utilities, to an extent we do for the former. Thus, I would propose that we take a Brig, Tractor Beam, Cargo Bay, and, if we absolutely must, a fourth choice, which should realistically simply be the Transporter.

I'm not really proposing a plan since if I recall correctly it's already been proposed, and thus would be redundant to propose again.
 
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