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Starfleet Design Bureau

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Ramble said:
Considering this design was able to decisively best a Klingon D6, a ship which at the time could casually murder its way through entire canon Federation battlefleets, I think this boat has approximately just the right amount of armaments. We should in fact go ahead and put MORE guns on the next one.
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I couldn't find any records on the D6 though. D5s yeah, and D7s, but not D6.
 
Assuming we specced the Saga as a long-range explorer it would have looked like this:

[ ] 1: Engineering Workshop (+2 Engineering, Capability: Fabrication)
[ ] 2: Extra Antimatter Pods (+250ly Range, +2 Cost)
[ ] 3: Science Labs (+4 Science)
[ ] 4: Extra Crew Quarters (Shared Quarters -> Personal Quarters)
[ ] 5: Biosciences (+2 Science, Capability: Advanced Medical)
[ ] 6: Cargo Bay (+1 Engineering, Capability: +2 Cargo)
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The 'raw' stats would then have been:

Engineering: 5 (-1 from 'canon')
Science: 8 (-2)
Cost: +2 (+1)

Assuming that there wouldn't have been hidden synergy from having the general science lab plus extra - I doubt it, because more labs didn't already give that benefit on the Saga we got, nor on the Curiosity - we would have come away with a ship with worse capability in engineering and sciences and higher final cost, with the only benefit being longer range. In fact Saga would have had equal Science to the Curiosity and equal Engineering to the Cygnus at a notably higher price point, so it's likely that once it was obsoleted as an explorer (i.e. whenever we get a better warp engine) it would be scrapped much sooner than the one we got in favour of the cheaper alternatives, without its overbuilt capabilities keeping it viable.
 
StriderInCosmos said:
Star Trek: The Undiscovered Horizons

Chapter 2: Pressing the Frontiers

Starfleet Headquarters, San Francisco, 2180

There was a scientifically proven concept to be found, Rear Admiral Fuku Sukuda mused, in the absolutely hypnotic effect that routine paperwork had on the conscious mind. It was a thought that came to him sometimes as he poured over ship assignments, mission reports, and the specially marked reports of discoveries being made by their Curiosity-class surveyors. In particular, the Lunokhod had just finished sequencing the biological profile of an animal species with remarkable self-healing capabilities, while the Yaoki and the Hayabusa had just finished combing over a patch of fascinating gravitic anomalies together that had acted as a sort of 'rink', allowing their impulse speed to increase by a substantial amount. Avidyne would want that data, he was sure.

Before he could go any further, he heard a chime at his office door, drawing him from the rather interesting wording of Captain Ruben's 'ice gliding' report. "Come in."

The door slid open, revealing a man that Sukuda didn't really see around these parts, tucked away as he was. Admiral Ulysses Speyer, the first peace-time member of the newly remade Admiralty Board, was usually in a rather more… public position.

And, as he stepped in, brown eyes gleaming as he took the somewhat spare office in, it was clear that, even still, the man was a little starstruck. "Good afternoon, Rear Admiral Sukuda. May I take a seat?"

Sukuda nodded, Speyer sitting quickly. "So, how's the family?"

Fuku smiled slightly. "Mosi's doing well. Our baby daughter hasn't stopped her from working from home. She even managed to get into a managerial position with Yoyodyne."

The medical retirement of Mosi Sukuda, nee Afolayan, after her treatment had been a matter of much fanfare for one of the youngest Rear Admirals in Starfleet. The relationship that came after, and the marriage ceremony, had been, somewhat appropriately, on the down-low. There had been rumors enough when she had been in the hospital in a coma. Thankfully, her going into Yoyodyne had deflected things somewhat.

"I have to admit, Yoyodyne was not where I was expecting the Rear Admiral to go," Speyer said with a slight grin. "You'd think with how hard their executives try to sell us their products, she'd be tired of them already."

Sukuda chuckled. "They're dreamers, one and all. I think Mosi's just the person they need, to give them a firm hand on the rudder so as not to steer into a rogue sandbar with a technological dead end."

It was quiet for a moment. "But you could have asked and been answered all of this over text or a call. Why come and see me in person?"

"Well, Admiral," Speyer said, "I've got good news and I've got bad news. I'll start with the bad news first. You're being kicked out of your office and back into space."

The words sent a shock through Sukuda as he sat up in his chair. "For what reason?"

Speyer smiled slightly. "Well, that's where the good news comes in. You been keeping up with the Sagarmatha's development?"

Sukuda nodded slowly. "I have a friend in the San Francisco Shipyards who's a touchstone with the Design Bureau. She's been having something of an existential crisis and a religious experience rolled into one. They're… big."

Speyer nodded. "It's amazing, really. The Sagarmatha has had so many people argue over its name, that the crew christened it 'The Ship with 6 Faces'."

Sukuda chuckled, then frowned slightly. "Wait a minute…"

Speyer's smile widened. "And there's the good news. Starfleet wants captains who have experience in the chair in dangerous situations. And you made it through the Romulan War. Can't think of better credentials for a man under fire than that."

"But the Sagarmatha-class is supposed to be an exploratory vessel," Sukuda said somewhat hesitantly. "A warship captain seems like a rather… ill-fitting thing for something so dedicated to seeing what's out there as peacefully as possible."

"Yeah…" Speyer said, his smile fading. "But there's every chance we'll need to… 'put up our dukes', so to speak. We don't know what's out there. And when the chips are down, we need someone who can be bold and willing to do what's necessary to protect innocent lives and the crew. And if there's anyone the Board can trust to do that… it's you."

It was silent as Sukuda considered the words, considered what he was about to do. He stood from his desk, walking over to pause by the display next to his rather well-stocked bookcase. It was a pitted, scarred, and partially melted piece of metal, the burns only slightly obscuring the words that were still legible, especially the words UES Thunderchild.

"How did you manage to get that?" Speyer asked as he walked to Sukuda's side to regard the somewhat mangled deck plaque of Sukuda's famous command. "I thought it would have been lost after the ship got scuttled at Cheron."

"Well," Sukuda said with a slight smile, "one of my more daring Lieutenants, Leslie, went in with an encounter suit and cut the plaque out of the wall with a phase pistol. Leslie and some other former crew members prettied it up as best they could and presented it to me at the treaty signing at Algeron."

Speyer nodded slowly. "Wow. What a piece of history. Will it be going with you?"

"Going with me?"

"You'll have the quarters for it. Along with most of this bookshelf. You may not be going all the way into the unknown… but I think you'll appreciate it."

Sukuda smiled slightly. "Then I don't see why not."

. . .

Sukuda mused on that moment as he sat on the remarkably filled-out bridge of his command, the UFS Olympus. It was a moment that put him back amongst the stars. There were plenty of times when he simply sat there, trusting in the top-rated, extremely competent crew to take the ship where they needed to go and took in the majesty of space as they wandered the stars past the current borders of the Federation, one of the 3 ships, alongside the Aoraki and the Sagarmatha, on rotation to go out past the still rather hazily defined lines to do so.

It was a move that had somewhat annoyed his wife until she managed to get an assignment as the chief of operations on some Yoyodyne research outpost out near the edge of Federation space at Andor. It made things easy. Or at least easier. The calls weren't dealing with much lag, anyway.

"Captain," his comms officer, an Ensign Hollyfield, said, drawing Sukuda's attention back to the present. "We're picking up what could be a transmission source about a light-year away." he paused as he looked back to his console. "If it's a language, which I think it might be, it's either a code or one we haven't seen before."

"Captain." his first officer, the Andorian Commander Zh'rena, began, drawing his attention to her. It was interesting, to say the least, to have a representative of the Andorian Navy holding such a high visiting commission in Starfleet. Sukuda recognized it for what it was; a herald of truly multi-species crews, whenever that would come. That she'd also applied specifically for the ship he'd captained while being a daughter of one of the scientists he'd seen off of Agaron Prime was, surely, just a coincidence.

"I don't feel like I need to remind you about that time it was a military transmission we stumbled into at Forrosi 7." She continued before pausing and smiling slightly, "Now, I think we're ready whatever way this goes, but…"

"There's never such a thing as too safe." Sukuda chuckled. "Well, it's what we're here for, isn't it?" he looked over at his helmsman. "Helm, take us towards that signal. Nice and non-threatening as we can."

"Aye, sir. Laying in a course." Lieutenant Desi replied. After a moment, she looked back at her captain. "Ready on your mark."

Sukuda nodded. "Sail on."

The stars became a blur as the ship leaped away, breaking past the speed of light with an ease that belied its potential.

. . .

They appeared at the edge of the star system RQ-769. Hanging in the night sky, the ship silently got to work combing the system for its secrets.

Rear Admiral Sukuda stood from his command chair, walking over to the science station that was currently manned by his accompanying officer. "Talk to me, Allison," Sukuda said. "What's the first impression?"

"We're working our way through the system from the outside in." Lieutenant Commander Allison Dreyer replied. "Right now, we're not seeing any overtly obvious signs of life. From what we can tell, we're looking at a binary star system of 7 planetary bodies, with…" her brow arched. "A Class M planet and two Class Ls. Daisy chained right in the middle of the habitable zone."

Sukuda's brows arched. "Well now, that's impressive."

Just as Sukuda finished speaking, Dreyer's console flashed new information that made the bridge turn to look at the station, Dreyer chuckling in amazement. "Captain… I'm reading signs of advanced life on the Class M planet. We're going to need a closer look to ascertain what kind of technology level they're at…"

"Within reason," Zh'rena said somewhat pointedly. "We've gotten close to breaking General Order One more than a few times now. The last thing I want to do is test how serious Command is about it."

Sukuda nodded. "Take us in a little past the orbit of the 7th planet. If there's anything pointed towards us, keep us away from it. I'd hate to be a picture on a corkboard with one too many strings."

Zh'rena arched a brow. "Sir?"

Sukuda smiled slightly. "I'll explain later." he returned to his seat, sitting and watching as they glided into the system, slowing once again to a stop, the planets before them still little more than dots on the horizon.

"Alright, Allison," Sukuda said, "what do our new neighbors look like?"

It was largely silent for a moment save for the humming and beeping of the sensors console. "Looking fairly advanced," Dreyer said. "Obvious signs of fusion power emissions, a fairly comprehensive satellite system, and rudimentary orbital industry. The universal translator's getting to work on translating their language from what is likely voice transmissions."

"Well, then," Sukuda said with a smile. "Looks like we might be getting to know them soon enough when they get around to warp technology. Anything from the other planets?"

"Looks like just small outposts on the two Class L planets, based on emissions signatures from the worlds," Dreyer replied. "Likely scientific or early colonial outposts."

"Anything else you need to find out about our neighbors?" Sukuda asked. "Otherwise, we'll hang back, write things up, and send it through Outpost 23 to San Francisco."

"Maybe some long-range observation of the species to get some baseline biological readings." Commander Zh'rena said somewhat quizzically. "Other than that, I can't think of much of anything else that-"

"I'm reading a warp signature from the Class M!" the ensign in the navigator's chair said, the sensor station lighting up as the screen showed a red diamond denoting the signature beginning to streak away from the primitive shipyard it launched from. "Plotting its course!"

It was a harried moment of chatter across the bridge as the main viewscreen had a glowing crimson line, going right through them, drawn across a windowed frame on the bottom right. "Yellow alert! Desi, get us out of the way of this thing." Sukuda said firmly. "If it collides with us…"

Then, the bridge fell silent as a small, angular ship, like a dark stalactite with two equally angular nacelles hugging tightly to the ship, zipped to a stop. Right in front of them.

Then, Hollyfield looked over at Sukuda as the two ships hung nose to nose. "Well," he said with a slight grimace, "I'm hearing a lot of chatter from the Class M. And I think the warp vessel might be trying to hail us."

Sukuda stood. "Prepare to send a transmission on all possible channels."

"Ready to transmit."

Sukuda took a deep breath. "Unknown vessel, this is Captain Fuku Sukuda of the United Federation Starship Olympus. We are an exploratory vessel for the United Federation of Planets." he paused. "We come in peace, and would be open and willing to open a dialogue with you and your people. You have just achieved a significant milestone in any civilization's advancement, the breakthrough of warp travel. It's a stupendous power, and its potential is limitless. We, and many others in the Federation, largely took our first steps into the stars on our own, or with only token help. But we are in a position to help make your first steps into the endless night one of boundless curiosity and advancement, and not a fraught, perhaps terrifying journey filled with preventable tragedies. At the end of the day, we desire a peaceful relationship with your species. We await your response. Olympus out."

He looked over at Hollyfield and nodded, the transmission cut off as he returned to his chair. "Alright," he said quietly. "What's the response look to be, Hollyfield?"

"Right now," Hollyfield said slowly after a moment, "the ship is silent, and there's a little less chatter on the planet. I think they're trying to compose a response."

Sukuda nodded. "Alright. Let's go ahead and sit tight. No sudden moves."

It was almost silent on the bridge of the ship as they watched and waited on the ship that sat in front of them, waiting for the first words of this newly discovered civilization. Finally, the comms channel chimed, and Hollyfield glanced back at Sukuda. "We're getting a response. The universal translator's still working on the language but we've got something. Opening a channel now."

"On speaker," Sukuda replied.

The comm channel clicked on, and a voice, low and somewhat growly, spoke. "Federation Starship. I am Rak'rikashi, scientist of the people of Korusmi and leader of the vessel Suruku. We are cautious. But we will speak to you."

Sukuda sighed quietly and smiled slightly. "Scientist Rak'rikashi, I am thankful for your willingness to speak with us. Would you and any crew that may be onboard your vessel be willing to come aboard so that we can meet you in person?"

"I am unsure how such a thing can be accomplished, but should it be possible, we look forward to meeting your Federation."

"We'll make it work, Rak'rikashi. Please remain stationary as we pull up beside you. Sukuda out."

The channel was closed, and Sukuda looked around the somewhat shocked, rather amazed bridge. "Did we just make first contact with a new species?" Desi said, his eyes glittering.

"I think we just did, Rajiv," Sukuda replied.

. . .

"As exciting as it is to hear about your contact with the Korusmians," Admiral Speyer said, "you've caused quite a stir here at Headquarters."

Sukuda nodded, recalling the remarkably reptilian/avian species, more than a few comparisons being drawn to Earth's ancient theropod dinosaurs as their chief medical officer, Lieutenant Th'vek, went through with an examination of their physiology. "I imagine so. We've also caused quite a stir on Korusmi too. They find the idea of becoming a part of the Federation rather… exciting. It's only been a few days, and there are already referendums going on to join."

Sukuda paused. "Have you received all of our data yet?"

Speyer nodded. "We just got the biological data Doctor Th'vek sent us. They really do look like some ancient raptor species that became somewhat humanoid and figured out civilization, don't they?"

"They're omnivorous, surprisingly enough," Sukuda remarked. "And while they certainly have a martial bent to them that left Commander Zh'rena impressed, they're… well, excited for the prospect of a peaceful alliance with us."

"Well, we appreciate the enthusiasm, that's for certain," Speyer replied. "But we need to make sure that the Korusmians are able to live up to the standards of the Federation. With what you've said about the scientists that you've spoken to, I'm optimistic, but this is still going to be setting a precedent, right alongside the Catians that the Aoraki have made contact with."

Sukuda nodded. "That it seems we will be. It's going to be interesting as we find more species."

"I'm sure that it's not just because you're not being shot at." Speyer smiled slightly.

Sukuda chuckled. "That's part of it, true. But I'm looking forward to learning the new perspectives, arts, and histories of these people. What the galaxy looks like through their eyes. Or whatever other sensory organs."

"And you'll be quite impressed with their fiction catalogs, I'm sure."

The two shared a quick laugh. "That too."

"Alright," Speyer finally said after a moment, "how long do you think you'll be in-system?"

"For a few more days at least," Sukuda replied. "Then we'll be moving on to other systems that their stellar cartographers have marked out as points of interest."

Speyer nodded slowly. "So it's a win for all parties involved."

He paused, then took a deep breath. "Well, the Jackdaw's in the area and will be out that way to continue the familiarization process and help them along in getting to the standards we set for formal induction into the Federation, along with keeping an eye on the area until we get an ambassador out there to sign treaties. Maybe you'll get to wave to them on your way out."

"Maybe so." Sukuda grinned slightly. "Good luck with the paperwork."

"Thanks," Speyer replied somewhat wearily. "Headquarters out."

With that, the call terminated, and Sukuda stood in his personal quarters, walking over to a window to see the planet of Korusmi, glittering green and blue, as they waited in orbit above it. He glanced for a moment over at the warped deck plaque of the Thunderchild, pondering the remarkable change he'd made. And the remarkable changes he, and the rest of the crew, might still make.

Edit: Reinstating Rear Admiral Sukuda's rank, as I've been reminded that yes, ranks higher than Captain can take the main chair of a starship.
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So now I'm just thinking what it'd be like to be a civilisation that has just built their first warp capable ship, probably something tiny and ridiculously primitive by federation standards but absolutely top of the line by theirs, only to run into one of the biggest and most powerful ships in the whole federation.

The Olympus is potentially a powerful enough ship to wipe their whole civilisation from the map should they choose to but the message that goes out isn't one declaring war or demanding submission.

This ungodly powerful warship instead sends out a message that in essence goes 'Hello, congratulations on getting this far. We have so much left to explore, want to do it together?'

Honestly that might just be one of the most beautiful things about Star Trek
 
Zimmerwald1915 said:
This is such post-hoc nonsense rationalization. Neither Spock nor T'Pol nor Tuvok had any more than minor complaints about the temperature on Starfleet ships (T'Pol griped more about the smell). The crew of a Vulcan survey ship were perfectly comfortable in temperate Earth temperatures in Carbon Creek. Conversely, Archer didn't have to bundle up when he went aboard Kumari. Meanwhile, the Xindi built in accommodations for their various member species in their ships (atmosphere sections for the non-Aquatics on Aquatic ships, for instance) -- surely the Federation can do at least as well.
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You started this with an argument that was ridiculous, but I didn't think was onerous enough to care about. Then you moved the goalposts to what I quoted, from ridiculous to "This kind of policy will cause actual injury if implemented as written". Now that I'm calling you out for painting with far too broad a brush, you're trying to move them back to where they were before.

If you wish to avoid this kind of shit going forward, don't make incredibly broad sweeping generalizations where the goalposts are so big I could pass Pluto between them and have room to spare.
 
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CanYouMeme said:
You started this with an argument that was ridiculous, but I didn't think was onerous enough to care about. Then you moved the goalposts to what I quoted, from ridiculous to "This kind of policy will cause actual injury if implemented as written". Now that I'm calling you out for painting with far too broad a brush, you're trying to move them back to where they were before.

If you wish to avoid this kind of shit going forward, don't make incredibly broad sweeping generalizations where the goalposts are so big I could pass Pluto between them and have room to spare.
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??? pretty sure the federation does build their ships to accommodate as wide a range of species as they can.
 
Tylonius said:
Nah, it's pretty bad. It had some top tier episodes, and got quite a bit better as it went along, but it's easily the worst show of it's era with a boring theme song.
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Eh personal taste really mostly watch specific episodes of it, but I liked the time war stuff, and its a shame we didn't get one more season of the show. DS9 has the worst theme song out of all the shows with voyager in second to last place.
 
Strunkriidiisk said:
Assuming we specced the Saga as a long-range explorer it would have looked like this:



The 'raw' stats would then have been:

Engineering: 5 (-1 from 'canon')
Science: 8 (-2)
Cost: +2 (+1)

Assuming that there wouldn't have been hidden synergy from having the general science lab plus extra - I doubt it, because more labs didn't already give that benefit on the Saga we got, nor on the Curiosity - we would have come away with a ship with worse capability in engineering and sciences and higher final cost, with the only benefit being longer range. In fact Saga would have had equal Science to the Curiosity and equal Engineering to the Cygnus at a notably higher price point, so it's likely that once it was obsoleted as an explorer (i.e. whenever we get a better warp engine) it would be scrapped much sooner than the one we got in favour of the cheaper alternatives, without its overbuilt capabilities keeping it viable.
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Well yes but it could have stayed relevant as an explorer longer thanks to the range so I'm not sure this would have been such a bad balance. The main issue was the lack of astrometrics really
 
I think the thing people tend to forget when talking about the ships max range, is that unless you have a need to check out a specific star in the far distance - it's not going straight out. More likely is that they go out a bit from the mapped border and run parallel(ish) (with small diversions for really interesting stuff) to it along a sector length, go out a bit further and do it again in the other direction. Think of it like a farmer ploughing a field. The extra fuel tanks may mean you can map a few more sweeps but objectively you may only be a few dozen light years from the original border and could be at the nearest star base in about a month.
 
TheShadowDeamon said:
I think the thing people tend to forget when talking about the ships max range, is that unless you have a need to check out a specific star in the far distance - it's not going straight out. More likely is that they go out a bit from the mapped border and run parallel(ish) (with small diversions for really interesting stuff) to it along a sector length, go out a bit further and do it again in the other direction. Think of it like a farmer ploughing a field. The extra fuel tanks may mean you can map a few more sweeps but objectively you may only be a few dozen light years from the original border and could be at the nearest star base in about a month.
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I feel like the exploration is done in a slowly expanding circle motion around federation territory, explaining how the hero ships can be recalled to earth and other federation territories fairly quick.
 
Tank man said:
Evidence points to a Nog or Worf like situation, given we only see a single Kzinti and Riker talks about them like they're an independent polity stirring up trouble close to the Federation border where he is (hence his house/the colony have impressive defences) in 2399.
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The Kzinti are an interesting situation, because if they're anything like in the Niven books, they have a big empire that spent a long time with only sub-light travel between many different worlds and colonies, to the point that there's implicitly genetic drift between them. On top of that, they actively practice genetic augmentation on their own species, to the point that it would be reasonable to label the current 'mainstream' Kzinti species in the Niven books as essentially the augment versions of an earlier baseline species (complete with many downsides, like a literal lack of fear responses even when it would be a really good idea to have them).

Anyway, what I'm getting at these is that in the Star Trek universe, it's likely the Kzinti would probably effectively be many separate small allied nations instead of a truly unified empire (while giving very nominal lip service to a single Patriarchy), to the point that there would even be noticeably different subspecies under the same name. That would do a lot to account for the differences between the TAS Kzinti (noticeably larger than humans but skinny and hunched), LDS Kzinti (roughly human-sized and implicitly similar in capabilities to most humanoids), Caitians and other species retconned as Kzinti offshoots (ditto), and Niven book Kzinti (noticeably larger than humans to the point that the runts are 500-pound tigers on legs).
 
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Amongst other things, haven't the Kzinti genetically engineered their females so that baring freak luck they're all as intelligent as animas (I.e sentient but not sapient)?
 
Tank man said:
Amongst other things, haven't the Kzinti genetically engineered their females so that baring freak luck they're all as intelligent as animas (I.e sentient but not sapient)?
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Yup, here are some direct quotes from Wikipedia about them, they are basically two of the most popular star trek races mixed into one (Klingons, and romulans). I like the way they look, but yikes their actual society.


"Once Kzinti gained access to genetic-manipulation technology, they started manipulating themselves in order to bring out the most "heroic" qualities and recede the undesired ones. To this end, because females are not valued except as bearers of children, the male-dominated Kzin society bred (most of) their own females into sub-sapience"

"To Kzin society, "heroic" means being honorable and having integrity. Kzin honor, called strakh, is similar in many ways to the samurai code of Bushido. Strakh serves as almost a sort of currency or favor system, since they do not use money in their culture. For example, if the Patriarch gets meat from a seller's market stand, the seller gains considerable strakh, which will bring honor to the seller, allowing him to get better customers, in turn leading to more strakh and giving the seller a higher status within the community"
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You can kind of see why the federation had a war with them just from these quotes. Larry Nivens Good at writing aliens when he isn't writing creepily about women. The other notable species from his Known Space universe, the puppeteers, is really alien. Pierson's Puppeteers - Wikipedia
 
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Darth Locutus said:
I'm still on the bandwagon for antimatter pods and crew Quarters having been the route for a true explorer to push the frontier.
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Considering that, going forward, we're going to likely get larger and larger hulls, I think we may be getting your wish as soon as the next design cycle without having to compromise on any scientific or engineering capabilities.
 
I'm hoping the next first contact we make is a race that has just got over the threat of a certain someone named Opaline Arcana and a young female quadruped named Sunny is trying to reunify her species. If you get the ref you get a cupcake from certain four legged party planner
 
pegasi1288 said:
I'm hoping the next first contact we make is a race that has just got over the threat of a certain someone named Opaline Arcana and a young female quadruped named Sunny is trying to reunify her species. If you get the ref you get a cupcake from certain four legged party planner
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Very much a pre-warp civilization, this, teleportation and portals aside.
 
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well given their tech is sporatic at best it would not surprise me if sunny found a ship derilect in the ice somewhere in the event opaline had ever won she fails as canon but maybe she and the other five find it under a cave or a city and maybe activates a automated distress signal? honestly it sounds like something izzy would do something like what does this button do ala dee dee from that old cartoon network show back in the day
 
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