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KNakamura said:
No. We do not need more DAKKA. This isn't wh40k. Or even Star Wars. Like kinda.. guys.. we can not go top tier on tactical. We make *warships* for that, when we need it.

(ETA: This is, to be clear, a frustrated statement about overestimation of tactical threats that a single ship should be capable of handling.)
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For the human mindset the fire power to blowup at least a small planetoid is an essential requirement for true SCIENCE!!!, that or a non zero chance of at least destroying a planet so the fire power is a safer option.

Also it too under gunned to be a warship.
 
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KNakamura said:
No. We do not need more DAKKA. This isn't wh40k. Or even Star Wars. Like kinda.. guys.. we can not go top tier on tactical. We make *warships* for that, when we need it.

(ETA: This is, to be clear, a frustrated statement about overestimation of tactical threats that a single ship should be capable of handling.)
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I don't like power scaling much, but...

Yeah even in the shows, Star Trek ships are shown to be really powerful almost by default regardless of how many guns they have (in fact most ships are shown to have fairly light armaments TBH), I have a feeling that some people in this thread consume more W40k and Star Wars than they do Star Trek going by how they approach voting: not that there's anything wrong with that.
 
I mean, even if we converted to plan voting, we'd be getting even more firepower than individual lines, considering the winning plan would be what I called the Plan Godslayer loadout.
Adhoc vote count started by Ramble on Dec 15, 2023 at 10:27 PM, finished with 217 posts and 84 votes.
  • [X] 0: Ten Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 9]
    [X] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36]
    [X] 2: One Aft Photon Launcher (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 0.75] [Alpha Strike: 18]
    [X] 3: Four Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 3]
    [X] 0: Six Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Standard) [Avg Damage: 5]
    [X] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36]
    [X] 2: One Aft Photon Launcher (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 0.75] [Alpha Strike: 18]
    [X] 3: Two Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 2]
    [X] 0: Ten Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 9]
    [X] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36]
    [X] 2: One Aft Photon Launcher (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 0.75] [Alpha Strike: 18]
    [X] 3: Two Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 2]
    [X] 0: Ten Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 9]
    [X] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36]
    [X] 2: No Aft Torpedoes
    [X] 3: Two Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 2]
    [X] 0: Ten Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Cost++) [Avg Damage: 9]
    [X] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Cost++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36]
    [X] 2: No Aft Torpedoes
    [X] 3: Two Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Cost+) [Avg Damage: 2]
    [X] 0: Six Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Standard) [Avg Damage: 5]
    [X] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36]
    [X] 2: No Aft Torpedoes
    [X] 3: Two Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 2]
    [X] 0: Ten Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 9]
    [X] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36]
    [X] 2: One Aft Photon Launcher (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 0.75] [Alpha Strike: 18]
    [X] 3: No Engineering Section Phasers
    [X] 0: Six Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Standard) [Avg Damage: 5]
    [X] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36]
    [X] 2: No Aft Torpedoes
    [X] 3: No Engineering Section Phasers
    [X] 0: Six Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Standard) [Avg Damage: 5]
    [X] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Cost++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36]
    [X] 2: No Aft Torpedoes
    [X] 3: Two Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Cost+) [Avg Damage: 2]
    [X] 0: Ten Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 9]
    [X] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36]
    [X] 2: No Aft Torpedoes
    [X] 3: No Engineering Section Phasers
    [X] 0: Ten Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Cost++) [Avg Damage: 9]
    [X] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Cost++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36]
    [X] 2: No Aft Torpedoes
    [X] 3: No Engineering Section Phasers
    [X] 0: Six Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Standard) [Avg Damage: 5]
    [X] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Cost++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36]
    [X] 2: One Aft Photon Launcher (Cost+) [Avg Damage: 0.75] [Alpha Strike: 18]
    [X] 3: Two Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Cost+) [Avg Damage: 2]
    [X] 3: Four Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Cost++) [Avg Damage: 3]
    [X] 0: Ten Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Cost++) [Avg Damage: 9]
    [X] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Cost++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36
    [X] 2: One Aft Photon Launcher (Cost+) [Avg Damage: 0.75] [Alpha Strike: 18]
    [X] 3: Four Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Cost++) [Avg Damage: 3]
    [X] 0: Six Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Standard) [Avg Damage: 5]
    [X] 1: No Forward Torpedoes
    [X] 2: One Aft Photon Launcher (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 0.75] [Alpha Strike: 18]
    [X] 3: Four Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 3]
    [X] 2: No Aft Torpedoes
    [X] 0: Ten Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 9]
    [X] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36]
    [X] 2: One Aft Photon Launcher (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 0.75] [Alpha Strike: 18]
    [X] 3: Two Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 2]
    [X] 3: Four Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 3]
    [X] 0: Ten Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 9]
    [X] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36]
    [X] 2: One Aft Photon Launcher (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 0.75] [Alpha Strike: 18]
    [X] 3: Two Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Cost+) [Avg Damage: 2]
    [X] 3: Four Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 3]
    [X] 0: Ten Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 9]
    [X] 1: No Forward Torpedoes
    [X] 2: One Aft Photon Launcher (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 0.75] [Alpha Strike: 18]
    [X] 3: Four Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 3]
    [X] 0: Six Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Standard) [Avg Damage: 5]
    [X] 1: No Forward Torpedoes
    [X] 2: One Aft Photon Launcher (Cost+) [Avg Damage: 0.75] [Alpha Strike: 18]
    [X] 3: Four Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Cost++) [Avg Damage: 3]
    [X] 0: Six Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Standard) [Avg Damage: 5]
    [X] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36]
    [X] 2: One Aft Photon Launcher (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 0.75] [Alpha Strike: 18]
    [X] 3: No Engineering Section Phasers
    [X] 0: Ten Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 9]
    [X] 1: Two Forward Photonic Launchers (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 0.6] [Alpha Strike: 15]
    [X] 2: One Aft Photon Launcher (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 0.75] [Alpha Strike: 18]
    [X] 3: No Engineering Section Phasers
    [X] All-round firepower
    -[X] 0: Ten Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 9]
    -[X] 1: No Forward Torpedoes
    -[X] 2: One Aft Photon Launcher (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 0.75] [Alpha Strike: 18]
    -[X] 3: Four Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 3]
    [X] 0: Ten Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 9]
    [X] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36]
    [X] 2: Two Aft Photonic Launchers (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 0.6] [Alpha Strike: 15]
    [X] 3: Two Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 2]
    [X] 0: Ten Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 9]
    [X] 1: Four Forward Photonic Launchers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 1.25] [Alpha Strike: 30]
    [X] 2: No Aft Torpedoes
    [X] 3: Two Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Cost+) [Avg Damage: 2]
Click to expand...
 
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Finding out about our hull and propulsion rolls before the prototype stage felt (to me) like we were given enough of an advantage that I'm fine with non-plan voting. As is we've been able to pick the most risky or costly options with the confidence we're ending up with something that'll be pretty good in the end (if expensive). I could imagine us leaving 2 or more prototype options on the table over the course of this design if we were in the dark.
 
Adhoc vote count started by LawsOfRobotics on Dec 15, 2023 at 10:33 PM, finished with 220 posts and 84 votes.
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If you group votes by line and merge the votes that use Cost instead of Infra you get this result:

[ ] 0: Ten Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 9]
[ ] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36]
[ ] 2: One Aft Photon Launcher (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 0.75] [Alpha Strike: 18]
[ ] 3: Two Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 2]

which is max weapons except for only 2 Engineering Section Phasers.
 
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Th3Saints said:
For the human mindset the fire power to blowup at least a small planetoid is an essential requirement for true SCIENCE!!!, that or a non zero chance of at least destroying a planet so the fire power is a safer option.
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In case we make First Contact with an alien species about to be destroyed by an armada of enemies, Copernicus stands ready to Make Friends using many phasers and photorps, it appears :lol:
 
thepsyborg said:
I feel like everyone's forgetting that superlative capabilities can only make up for going overbudget on the civilian side; going overbudget on Starfleet industry will just plain get us reamed.
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The Cygnus needed to not go over-budget so that we could build them in parallel and in large quantities as quickly as feasible. An Explorer is not an urgent need, and if it takes 3+ years to construct each one so we're not overstraining our industry that's fine. You're comparing apples to oranges.
 
KlavoHunter said:
That may be so, but I can easily imagine terrified enemies trying to find respite behind Copernicus' nacelles from the blanket barrage of phaser fire... It would be satisfying to finish them off with a quick torp, aye?
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That would definitely be cool. But all of the options have the potential to be cool, and we're already hilariously over budget.

Can't really complain myself, though, since I'm suggesting a 5/7 instead of 6/7 possible Infrastructure use. :V

Wootius said:
Plan voting just evolves into (even more) bandwagoning, I'd rather keep riot voting to be honest
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Yeah, if we got five or more options in one update, or if there was a case where certain options really didn't go well together, maybe it'd be time to do a plan vote, but right now I'm not really seeing the need.
 
[X] 0: Ten Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 9]
[X] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36]
[X] 2: One Aft Photon Launcher (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 0.75] [Alpha Strike: 18]
[X] 3: Four Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 3]
 
[X] 0: Ten Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 9]
[X] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36]
[X] 2: One Aft Photon Launcher (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 0.75] [Alpha Strike: 18]
[X] 3: Four Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 3]
 
[X] 0: Six Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Standard) [Avg Damage: 5]
[X] 1: Two Forward Photonic Launchers (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 0.6] [Alpha Strike: 15]
[X] 2: No Aft Torpedoes
[X] 3: No Engineering Section Phasers
 
[X] 0: Ten Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 9]
[X] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36]
[X] 2: One Aft Photon Launcher (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 0.75] [Alpha Strike: 18]
[X] 3: Four Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 3]

my rationale for this choice is simple: Go big or go home.
 
If it comes to a point where the votes are getting complex enough to make plans a major consideration, I'd rather just have less votes, even if that means I wouldn't be able to try and direct the design of the ships as precisely anymore.

A big reason I think helped the original thread take off like it did was just how exceedingly low the barrier to entry was. There weren't (that many) votes where the combinations were complex enough to warrant plans. There wasn't a budget limit hanging overhead making us try and plot out how many nacelles and engines we should put on 2-3 updates before the vote actually happens. Hell, Sayle did well enough with the descriptions that I don't think you even needed that much knowledge of Star Trek itself to get an understanding of the options on offer.
 
7th Hex said:
If it comes to a point where the votes are getting complex enough to make plans a major consideration, I'd rather just have less votes, even if that means I wouldn't be able to try and direct the design of the ships as precisely anymore.

A big reason I think helped the original thread take off like it did was just how exceedingly low the barrier to entry was. There weren't (that many) votes where the combinations were complex enough to warrant plans. There wasn't a budget limit hanging overhead making us try and plot out how many nacelles and engines we should put on 2-3 updates before the vote actually happens. Hell, Sayle did well enough with the descriptions that I don't think you even needed that much knowledge of Star Trek itself to get an understanding of the options on offer.
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I've liked it changing regularly.
I like in war time, we just go nuts. I like after war when rebuilding, we get an ideal budget sheet for our bulk produced.
I like that when we do our explorer class we get graded, but frankly they will accept anything as long as it looks good when it's finished.

Different purposes have different levels of scrutiny, and can accept different levels of involvement in prevote thoughts.
And honestly, we don't really seem to have a failure condition, just an open slate brain storm "come check out your results, then jump to the next!" So you only have to be as worked up as you want to be about it all.
 
[X] 0: Ten Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 9]
[X] 1: Two Forward Photon Launchers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 1.5] [Alpha Strike: 36]
[X] 2: One Aft Photon Launcher (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 0.75] [Alpha Strike: 18]
[X] 3: Four Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Infra++) [Avg Damage: 3]
 
[X] 0: Six Saucer Type-1 Phasers (Standard) [Avg Damage: 5]
[X] 1: Two Forward Photonic Launchers (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 0.6] [Alpha Strike: 15]
[X] 2: One Aft Photon Launcher (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 0.75] [Alpha Strike: 18]
[X] 3: Two Engineering Section Type-1 Phasers (Infra+) [Avg Damage: 2]
 
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