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[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]

Rollbars are still a neat thing to normalise as an option for when using them for something cool actually is appropriate.
 
[x] Standard Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]
[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]

Finally, Starfleet added a spot just for the ice cream bar.
 
We need to put a circular roll bar on a sphere. It solves the "no flat surfaces to mount phasers" problem. Just build a flat ring structure just offset from the hull and off center back. Mount phasers on that pointing forward and back.
 
Skippy said:
If this were a huge survivability concern, it would not be being offered as an option, I don't think?

Like however the rollbar torpedo launcher works it clearly does work (and Sayle is a fan of rollbar torpedo launchers), so there seems to essentially be a 0% chance that in the Quest this is going to manifest as a problem?
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It seems like a functionality issue that caught my eye, just like the orb's form factor caused issues with its tactical capability
I also find it instructive that the rollbar is not something Starfleet did before, or appears to be in a hurry to repeat either outside the Miranda. I dont like rollbar esthetics, so the appearance is a negative for me

I mean, the cost of an additional pair of launchers is negligible; you're right there. Ten points for two more launchers is fine
Four OTOH? You are now beginning to talk real money and having to justify the hardware costs
And I dont think you can


VOTE
[X] Standard Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]


I dont think we need more torpedoes enough to modify the ship's hullform and make it a dreadnought instead of the heavy cruiser we were asked for
And I dont like rollbar esthetics
 
[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]

I won't be heartbroken if we get Rollbar Torpedoes, it's just not the ship we were asked for or the roll we're filling.
 
[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]

So we can maybe add a big cargo bay and build enough hulls to make this class more of a logistics ship and all-around problem solver, instead of an overgunned monster designed to win a war that ended five years ago
 
[] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (+2 Fore/Aft Torpedo Mounts)

There is another advantage to a torpedo rollbar... That means we may not have to sacrifice internal ship modules for mounting those torpedoes. We were all leery of losing modules for firepower, we may not do so if there's a dedicated space for it.

If we end up over-arming a ship, that'll be a first, and as far as I'm concerned a very useful lesson.

Reluctantly changing my votes, my previous course of action won't achieve the outcome I desire, therefore it is illogical.

[X] Standard Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]
[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]
 
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[X] Standard Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]
[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]

If the war was ongoing, I would be slamming that torpedo roll bar. If it gave module space, it would be strongly considering it despite the connotations.
But I want this built in quantity.
So approval voting for the moment, and I'll hope someone posts rollbar pictures so I can decide which I personally prefer later :p
 
[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (+2 Fore/Aft Torpedo Mounts)

Karugus said:
I'm not saying it's all or nothing, and I don't disagree that single target damage rating is useful- but my point is we've been prioritizing it with the Excalibur, it'll probably be emphasized with the Miranda, and it won't be lacking on the Federation regardless.

As for the battle you describe, I'm probably going to get flak for this argument but- that's just a stereotypical action hero punching down against nominally 'peer' elite mooks. Why are the K'tingas' waiting one at a time to get defeated in stylish fashion rather than maneuvering out of it's firing arcs while one draws fire? Why are they not trying to swap who takes fire on their shields to draw the battle out? Assuming the Federation will have the luxury of overpowering each enemy cruiser one after the other is the cleanest, most favorable white room scenario possible and assumes no agency for the Opfor. Even in the best case scenario the K'tinga won't be much less agile than the Federation- if we give the Fed the benefit it'll be able to use most of it's fixed weaponry in that scenario regardless, we need to do the same for the K'tinga.

And believe me, I've been dismissive of the Ninja Bird of Prey Swarm before, but it was a repeated Klingon tactic to use them as skirmishers to pin and degrade our superior cruiser forces before they closed in with the D7s. And it worked, even when we won, it was probably a closer run thing than it needed to be if we had adequate multi-targeting damage output. Suggesting we get a better tactical response than just 'if our cruisers are better enough, they can still win even after they get degraded by the enemy' doesn't seem to to be succumbing to fear of the memetic ninja BOP.

My contention isn't that single-target damage is useless- it's that there is no equivalent weight capital ship that needs the Federation to double down on single-target damage, and that we have capable single-target damage from other ships as a matter of course. Getting high coverage, and most importantly- relatively affordable high coverage helps our lean and mean cruisers better match their peers in displacement, and on it's lonesome lets it better fight an enemy willing to do more than wait their turn to fall under it's heavy guns.
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This would be IMO a stronger argument before we got the new torpedo launchers that absolutely break the cost/benefit curve over their knee. Like, with the Rapid-Fire Launcher, yes, there was a real trade-off, but the Type IV is sufficiently cheap that we can in fact have both decent phaser coverage, and an absolutely ungodly amount of frontal firepower. On a ship which yes, is ungodly expensive, but probably the presence of a single Federation can qualitatively change an engagement or a theatre in the way similar to the presence of a modern nuclear attack submarine, or in the way the Excalibur was able to to single-handedly by the Federation breathing room in the last war.

The way a hypothetical Federation with more torpedoes deals with swarming is (A) it's not its job because I think very larger capital ships are not the best platforms for dealing with BoP swarms, and (B) basically exactly how it would if it had less torpedoes. Like again, what we're talking about here is the same ship, except with +10% cost but significantly improved firepower against enemy capital ships. Whether we put more torpedoes on or not makes no difference to its ability to fight swarms with phasers, although for the record, the Miranda is probably going to be a better tool for the job.

If we're talking about the Federation fighting three K'Tinga, then yes, of course, they're also going to be manoeuvring and using their torpedoes. That is how ships in Star Trek fight each other. Like again, torpedoes are just a useful and incredibly powerful weapon we see everyone use all the time, so we want more of them. It's not complicated. Maximising firepower just maximises your chances of overloading another ship's shields before it can run away.
 
Cold Dust said:
[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (+2 Fore/Aft Torpedo Mounts)

There is another advantage to a torpedo rollbar... That means we may not have to sacrifice internal ship modules for mounting those torpedoes. We were all leery of losing modules for firepower, we may not do so if there's a dedicated space for it.

If we end up over-arming a ship, that'll be a first, and as far as I'm concerned a very useful lesson.
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Not how it's gonna work out.


Sayle said:
The cost increase would be by adding torpedoes. Skipping hull-mounted torpedoes won't give you more hull space. I'll add these into the main post as points.
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If you're voting for this to just get more modules, we're not getting that.
 
[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]

Give it enough punch so it's slightly better than the Excalibur and with more phaser coverage. It's tanky enough to work as an anchor and soak fire without the cost jumping by 60%.
 
Bedpotato said:
Boring i just want a battleship.
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We werent asked for a batteship
Ignoring the clients primary requiremnts is a great way not to get many of this boat built

And we want many of this built, not just for the ego and capability
But because it will advance the adoption of those new technology prototypes we want to put on it
So they will be ready to refit other ships and be available for the Excelsior
 
Skippy said:
[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (+2 Fore/Aft Torpedo Mounts)



This would be IMO a stronger argument before we got the new torpedo launchers that absolutely break the cost/benefit curve over their knee. Like, with the Rapid-Fire Launcher, yes, there was a real trade-off, but the Type IV is sufficiently cheap that we can in fact have both decent phaser coverage, and an absolutely ungodly amount of frontal firepower. On a ship which yes, is ungodly expensive, but probably the presence of a single Federation can qualitatively change an engagement or a theatre in the way similar to the presence of a modern nuclear attack submarine, or in the way the Excalibur was able to to single-handedly by the Federation breathing room in the last war.

The way a hypothetical Federation with more torpedoes deals with swarming is (A) it's not its job because I think very larger capital ships are not the best platforms for dealing with BoP swarms, and (B) basically exactly how it would if it had less torpedoes. Like again, what we're talking about here is the same ship, except with +10% cost but significantly improved firepower against enemy capital ships. Whether we put more torpedoes on or not makes no difference to its ability to fight swarms with phasers, although for the record, the Miranda is probably going to be a better tool for the job.

If we're talking about the Federation fighting three K'Tinga, then yes, of course, they're also going to be manoeuvring and using their torpedoes. That is how ships in Star Trek fight each other. Like again, torpedoes are just a useful and incredibly powerful weapon we see everyone use all the time, so we want more of them. It's not complicated. Maximising firepower just maximises your chances of overloading another ship's shields before it can run away.
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We're in full agreement. The faster we can get the new torpedo launcher into standard or mature, the better. Also again, we have no obligation to actually use the new launcher slots if it doesn't suit us to do so. We just don't use them. And despite it not being said, I suspect we're freeing up a wee bit of module space by keeping them outside our hull.

uju32 said:
We werent asked for a batteship
Ignoring the clients primary requiremnts is a great way not to get many of this boat built

And we want many of this built, not just for the ego and capability
But because it will advance the adoption of those new technology prototypes we want to put on it
So they will be ready to refit other ships and be available for the Excelsior
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Federation needs more pure firepower, the more the better. If we could do so without it distorting mission parameters or cost issues, I'd stick in 10 fore and 5 aft type-iv torpedo tubes. We may not realize we need it, but it would be really nice to have the decisive upper hand in raw firepower on our next encounter. We've been told the Romulans are taking a more proactive role, the Klingons attacked early so the Gorn, Tholians and Romulans have been shoveling popcorn watching us fight in exquisite detail. We've been told there's been vague rumblings from the Gorn and Tholian borders and Starfleet is slightly concerned.

Last time we didn't want to go overboard with weapons spending for a generation or 2, it contributed to us being weak enough the Klingons went to war early. Heavily armed ships aren't just there to fight, they're there to deter anyone from wanting to fight you. If we can prevent a war we get uninterrupted time to build, research and develop rather than risking a war now, where our fleet's still in an awkward position because of the whole warp 7 incompatibility thing.
 
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[X] Standard Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]
[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]

What I want? A Hybrid Heavy Cruiser/Proto-Explorer, not a Dreadnought(anymore).
 
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