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[X] Flight Deck (Mass: 220kt) [Cost 55.5] (Maximum Warp: 8 -> 7.6)

The number of people who have spent the last twenty pages chanting FiGhTeRs BaD over and over again is deeply amusing. Keep it up, at least I can get some amusement out of this.

Also @uju32 is actively trolling at this point, there is no possibility he is genuinely that unable to grok that "you have permission to ignore Science" is not some secret code for "You should do more Science". I'd ignore him at this point.
 
Onionjones said:
If we want to aim for order size why would we go for engineering - that's what the Miranda should be for and they'll be less expensive.

It would make sense for starfleet procurement to order more of those instead because that would be an inherently more flexible fleet.
So I think if we go for engineering then this will just get upstaged by the Miranda.
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We're not getting a massive order of these ships either way, it's just way too big and expensive compared with the Miranda. But we should still get more ships if we design it to fill a hole that Starfleet needs filled, like rapid cargo transport or second-wave emergency response.

Building it into a science generalist is literally just doing the Kea again, while the Kea has just undergone a mid-life refit. Sure, it'll actually have good tactical this time, but it's going to be very hard to justify when they look at their Keas and Excaliburs and Attenboroughs and Atwaters. Like, if you're really optimistic you could hope that Starfleet will order a second tranche of ships to replace Excalibur losses in a decade or two? But at that point we're closing in on the Excelsior entering service.
 
Lohjak said:
We're not getting a massive order of these ships either way, it's just way too big and expensive compared with the Miranda. But we should still get more ships if we design it to fill a hole that Starfleet needs filled, like rapid cargo transport or second-wave emergency response.

Building it into a science generalist is literally just doing the Kea again, while the Kea has just undergone a mid-life refit. Sure, it'll actually have good tactical this time, but it's going to be very hard to justify when they look at their Keas and Excaliburs and Attenboroughs and Atwaters. Like, if you're really optimistic you could hope that Starfleet will order a second tranche of ships to replace Excalibur losses in a decade or two? But at that point we're closing in on the Excelsior entering service.
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Even if this doesn't replace the Kea It could totally replace the Saladin, of which the whole class should be decommissioned by 2272, that was a class 16 ships, and this design will be done in the 2250s so with build time its definitely plausible, after all we shouldn't have to decommission the Saladin without a replacement lined up.
Also it can always replace the wartime losses of the Excalibur and Kea, and that would be at least ~20 ships.
 
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Lohjak said:
We're not getting a massive order of these ships either way, it's just way too big and expensive compared with the Miranda. But we should still get more ships if we design it to fill a hole that Starfleet needs filled, like rapid cargo transport or second-wave emergency response.

Building it into a science generalist is literally just doing the Kea again, while the Kea has just undergone a mid-life refit. Sure, it'll actually have good tactical this time, but it's going to be very hard to justify when they look at their Keas and Excaliburs and Attenboroughs and Atwaters. Like, if you're really optimistic you could hope that Starfleet will order a second tranche of ships to replace Excalibur losses in a decade or two? But at that point we're closing in on the Excelsior entering service.
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Then what the [CENSORED] does Starfleet actually want/need???

Engineering/Cargo is covered by the Archer, surviving Newtons, and the Miranda's going to bring some basic cargo to the table.
Science is covered by the Kea and Attenborough. The Saladin? Don't make me laugh...
Tactical is only covered by the Excalibur.
 
The flight deck has a place.

That place is on the next generation Super Archer.

SUPER ARCHER - 240ktons, 12 deck sphere primary hull. Large warp 8 core. Secondary hull flight deck. Large cargo pod. Nacelles in cargo pod configuration. Light shields.

And an entire 12 deck sphere devoted to engineering.

Efficient cruise speed - 6. Maximum cruise 7. Maximum warp something like 7.4, but she's a cargo hauler.

One rapid launcher forward and back. 4 phaser banks to give her reasonable phaser coverage.

Tactical - C-
Science - C- (4)
Engineering - S (oh God fuck tons of engineering)

Starfleet no joke absolutely 100% needs to build this ship for the same reason they are still building Archers. It blows any other possible engineering ship out of the water. The Super Archer would deliver more cargo and a higher engineering score faster at a not very much higher cost compared to an Archer.

Starfleet will shatter their molars grinding their teeth, then order 20.
 
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[X] Flight Deck (Mass: 220kt) [Cost 55.5] (Maximum Warp: 8 -> 7.6)

0.4 points of max warp is a real cost for sure, but the versatility this seems to offer is appealing. More secondary duties means we can justify more hulls and spread them around more.
 
Onionjones said:
Even if this doesn't replace the Kea It could totally replace the Saladin, of which the whole class should be decommissioned by 2272, that was a class 16 ships, and this design will be done in the 2250s so with build time its definitely plausible.
Also it can always replace the wartime losses of the Excalibur and Kea
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This cannot replace the Saladin, because the Saladin was a cheap beatstick that had some science slapped on and this is probably going to be the most expensive ship we have ever designed. It's also big enough (Kea sized) that if we do decide to put in a bunch of science then it becomes a Kea replacement, at a time when the Kea doesn't need replacing.

There's still probably like 20+ Excaliburs and Keas after the war, and even after a bunch of Excaliburs die doing science we have easily over 20 science ships with Attenboroughs. Considering that pre-war our science was mostly 10 Sagarmathas and 12 Keas along with whatever Saladins were doing science instead of patrol. We're pretty much at pre-war science, and that was arguably too much science for our poor utility cruisers to support.

KlavoHunter said:
Then what the [CENSORED] does Starfleet actually want/need???

Engineering/Cargo is covered by the Archer, surviving Newtons, and the Miranda's going to bring some basic cargo to the table.
Science is covered by the Kea and Attenborough. The Saladin? Don't make me laugh...
Tactical is only covered by the Excalibur.
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I don't think they actually need the Federation to do anything. That's why our design goals don't specify what they want, beyond "we don't care about science". So if we want them to order a bunch of them (relatively speaking, it's a huge expensive ship) then we need it to do things that other ships can't. And the advantages of such a large design is that we're able to take the massive warp core for great transit speed and we have a ton of module space, so we want to focus on things that benefit from being fast and carrying lots of stuff.

What comes to mind for me is a fast cargo mover, since it'll be able to carry more cargo than anything that's not an Archer at speeds that nothing else can match, or a highly capable emergency response ship that has perhaps a smaller cargo capacity in exchange for medical labs and search and rescue equipment. Station one at each Pharos, and we should have the ability to respond to emergencies at any colony within a week or two at most.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
Starfleet no joke absolutely 100% needs to build this ship for the same reason they are still building Archers. It blows any other possible engineering ship out of the water. The Super Archer would deliver more cargo and a higher engineering score faster at a not very much higher cost compared to an Archer.

Starfleet will shatter their molars grinding their teeth, then order 20.
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Starfleet Procurement: *curses*


Long Haul Space-Trucking is the real backbone of the Federation frfr.
 
Though I think the Archer's reputation will bounce back in a generation. Think about it.

What percentage of Starfleet's command staff had an Archer as their first command position? How many Admirals and Captains therefore have a certain fondness for the Archer that never really fades.
 
[X] Flight Deck (Mass: 220kt) [Cost 55.5] (Maximum Warp: 8 -> 7.6)

The reduced maximum warp hurts, but this ship isn't meant to be a raider / fast-response combatant. We have the Excalibur for that.
 
[X] Flight Deck (Mass: 220kt) [Cost 55.5] (Maximum Warp: 8 -> 7.6)

The additional versatility and service-life seems like an acceptable trade for a slower max-warp.
 
SCIFI-enthusiast said:
[X] Flight Deck (Mass: 220kt) [Cost 55.5] (Maximum Warp: 8 -> 7.6)

The additional versatility and service-life seems like an acceptable trade for a slower max-warp.
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I am not sure the flight deck adds service life. Sure, it gets a little engineering (and loses some due to losing the cargo bay), but the best thing we can do to extend the service life of this ship is to no compromise it's speed so that the next generation of nacelles do not entirely overshadow it.

So full sized deflector and 4 nacelles so it isn't completely overshadowed by 2 nacelle designs next generation.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
I am not sure the flight deck adds service life. Sure, it gets a little engineering (and loses some due to losing the cargo bay)
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In a build for a Super Archer? It adds at least half a century for the added utility. Afaik most civvie space traffic is either large and bulky (which multiple shuttlecraft might be able to tow), or civvie shuttles (which can be serviced on the flight deck). Such a build doesn't need a standard secondary hullspace for cargo, because it loads up an exterior container for that.

For a Frontline heavy cruiser to cover the holes made by the dwindling and aging Newtons in our fleet? One fast enough to keep pace with our DPS Excaliburs? Not much service life at all. For that build you want Standard Hull for weapon/module space, and have enough room to leverage S Tactical and B+ Science and Engineering

Both are great designs, I just think the second one is more important this cycle.

Edit: On the subject of Quad Nacelles, we last did them on the Sagarmartha iirc and (at the time) they gave us a +.2 all in a parallel configuration (instead of either +.4 cruise or max). Dual Nacelles on the Attenborough gave the same bonus'.

Idk what the modifier for doing both would be for the Federation Class be anywhere in the ballpark of +.5 - .8 to Cruise or Warp or +.3-.4 to both depending on positioning. That said the cost could end up bad enough it turns the whole design into a boondoggle.
 
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I agree that our goal for this ship should be a) unstoppable tank and b) do something no one else does.

With that in mind, we don't have specific medical or diplomatic ships yet. But whatever our choice, we need to look at the specific capabilities of the modules even more than the raw science score. Numbers Go Up is a start but it isnt enough.
 
Cold Dust said:
This I could get behind. Something with both storage and vast manufacturing ability, to jump-start colonies. You could easily tweak that to be a fleet tender/deep space repair ship as well. Something with Starfleet-grade warp, that'll spend at least 6 months on-station cranking out colony facilities and then move on to its next target or return to base for refuel and reloading.
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We dont need more colonies, we need more resources
 
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