Personally, I'd put doubling up on fuel above diplomatic suites. Especially if it becomes capable of sharing excess antimatter with other Federation Ships.
Keeping the basic package for antimatter for this baby is like giving a Rally Car the gas tank of a lawnmower. The Federation Class already has good speed, we might as well let her enjoy it!
This I could get behind. Something with both storage and vast manufacturing ability, to jump-start colonies. You could easily tweak that to be a fleet tender/deep space repair ship as well. Something with Starfleet-grade warp, that'll spend at least 6 months on-station cranking out colony facilities and then move on to its next target or return to base for refuel and reloading.
This is what the Archer has:
[ ] Fabrication Workshops (+12 Engineering) [Fabrication]
Frankly I don't think we can set up fabricating plants better and bigger than what we already have without doing another disco ball.
And anything bigger and more long term could properly be built in place with the Archer's massive cargo pod too.
I don't mean to sound negative, just don't want to double up capabilities compared to a hyper specialised ship that's already got bulk orders in place.
Still would put operational range above diplomacy even without that option tho. What's effectively our fleets dreadnought would probably stay in service over a century if it could double as a long range explorer. Hopeful one less prone to being eaten by giant amoeba than the Excalibur-Class.
Still would put operational range above diplomacy even without that option tho. What's effectively our fleets dreadnought would probably stay in service over a century if it could double as a long range explorer. Hopeful one less prone to being eaten by giant amoeba than the Excalibur-Class.
With current cruise speed and a standard six months of antimatter the ship can cross the breadth of the Federation twice on a single tank of gas - that seems plenty good to me. And no, we should not be gearing the ship for exploration duties - the Excaliburs are already doing that and the Excelsior class is right around the proverbial corner. What we need is a reliable beatstick to remain on station so that the Excaliburs don't need to turn around and rush back whenever we need a big stompy boot.
With current cruise speed and a standard six months of antimatter the ship can cross the breadth of the Federation twice on a single tank of gas - that seems plenty good to me. And no, we should not be gearing the ship for exploration duties - the Excaliburs are already doing that and the Excelsior class is right around the proverbial corner. What we need is a reliable beatstick to remain on station so that the Excaliburs don't need to turn around and rush back whenever we need a big stompy boot.
The Excalibur wasn't really outfitted to be an explorer tbh, and the reason it worked as a beatstick against the Klingons was because it had the fuel to U-boat their back lines. The reason it works so well as an explorer is entirely because it has operational range, and for no other reason. It certainly isn't our defacto explorer because of it's science capabilities.
With a tanky line holder to bolster the Excaliburs, we would have done better against the Klingons overall.
Either way, crossing the Federation 4 times is better than crossing it twice, and considering how much running around they'll need to do while we build our numbers back up we don't need them making traffic at the fuel yards. The Miranda's will make enough traffic for both classes.
Also we lost a lot of logistics points to Klingon offensives, so theirs that too.
Either way, crossing the Federation 4 times is better than crossing it twice, and considering how much running around they'll need to do while we build our numbers back up we don't need them making traffic at the fuel yards. The Miranda's will make enough traffic for both classes.
I kinda of feel like I would rather them go to a refilling station twice a year and have more modules, than be able to go only once a year. I mean, what would we have that makes it bad for them to return to civilisation? Is going a few times a year really causing traffic at our Pharos network?
We already have the Excaliburs as a potential ranged threat to the Klingons and Starfleet has already rejected the idea of going to attack them anyway.
I kinda of feel like I would rather them go to a refilling station twice a year and have more modules, than be able to go only once a year. I mean, what would we have that makes it bad for them to return to civilisation? Is going a few times a year really causing traffic at our Pharos network?
We already have the Excaliburs as a potential ranged threat to the Klingons and Starfleet has already rejected the idea of going to attack them anyway.
So far, extra fuel has always been one small module, and with a full saucer we're likely to have room to spare for it. Iirc the times it hasn't been chosen is because the ship size limited the total amount of modules.
A section of our Pharos network was been reduced to space dust, which kinda puts a damper on refueling at them. As well as effectively cutting off colonies and planets along our klingon border.
We need our Beatstick to be able to answer the call whenever, and it won't be able to do a good job of that if they keep having turn around.
The Excaliburs stopped being as effective against the Klingons halfway through the war, when they improved convoy defenses and pour weight of numbers on our somewhat fragile Excaliburs. Being able to pair a shield with our sword in long range fleet engagements is a force multiplier for the fleets.
All that said, if the choice is between fuel and an advanced medical bay, I definitely won't be arguing for fuel.
Yes, that's what our previous two ships are for. Excaliburs catalogue new systems, and the light science cruisers follow up on anything interesting. Starfleet has made it pretty clear how many more of those they think they need, and it's not many.
The Excaliburs had a pretty high peacetime loss rate at this job because they werent designed with the tools for it; we lost five of the total production run of eighteen to science mishaps in five years
That's a ~28% loss rate. In peacetime
For comparison, we lost one Excalibur in the Four Year War; we lost one Attenborough in its entire hundred year career
To put it another way, the Excalibur suffered proportionately more losses in peacetime than the Keas suffered during war
So many Callies died in the Pathfinder missions of the early 2250s that we re-invented the explorer
Now, this is some logic I don't follow. Why would Starfleet order 18 more last generation ships if they didn't desperately need the engineering resources?
They need it now, thats why the extra Archers have been ordered and are in production
They wont need it by the time this ship reaches production in around eight to ten years time because the Archerswarm will be everywhere
Naval strategy is build strategy; this is a point that has been made before
There is lag time of around a decade between ordering a ship design and getting the first ones off the assembly line
This is also quite strange reasoning, in my opinion. The obvious reason that Starfleet doesn't have requirements for engineering here is that they expect the Miranda will be constructed in large numbers to fill that role, while they specifically mention that the scientific capability of this ship will not matterbecause we've just built two science ships.
I dont see how you read "There must be a minimum Science of X, minimum Tactical of Y and you are free to " and then came to the conclusion that it means that the science doesnt matter
Or how you looked at the Excalibur's Science C and loss rate then concluded it was a science ship
We were told we could, we were not required to
Project Miranda, otoh, was required to cap Science in favor of other roles
It bears remembering what Excalibur loss rates were during the Pathfinder missions
We have an opportunity to aim some of this ship's secondary functions to cover a vulnerability that Starfleet Procurement hasnt realized currently exists in the roster
This is certainly one of the hot takes of all time. How on earth you can read "you have explicit permission to dumpstat Science" as "Science is required but you can dumpstat Engineering" is just absolutely baffling.
More pertinently in strategic terms, however, the Newton's size and quality tactical systems made it the cruiser that made up the 'bulk' of fleet deployments during the war. Their ability to provide a stable firing position while other fleet elements maneuvered around or through their formations represent a key element of Federation fleet doctrine. Put simply, they need a replacement. To that end there are two competing ideas for how to accomplish this, and while Klingon debris is accelerating warp coil and hull metallurgy development, advancements are not expected to mature for some time yet. So you have to do it with the technology you have available today.
The first proposal is for a midweight generalist. The hope is that Project Miranda will produce a starship with a reduction in non-vital capabilities in exchange for a reasonably costed and capable generalist able to take up missions as required. As an in-territory vessel with only basic scientific facilities, the freed space could be utilised for tactical, engineering, and utility concerns. The main question would be what non-auxiliary areas would be sacrificed to drive the costs down.
The second proposal is for the other end of the scale. Project Federation envisions a cruiser more along the lines of the Kea-class, using a higher mass than other contemporary starships to produce powerful defense fields and a depth of capability in vital areas of interest. This idea of a line cruiser would then be able to weather any conflict it takes part in, acting as a lynchpin for a small task force or the main force of battle in a larger engagement.
Miranda is "this is the maximum Science you can have; no less, but no more.
The rest should be Tactical primary, plus Engineering and other utility functions
Cheap as possible for the capability, thanks"
Federation is "this is the minimum amount of Science you can have; you can have more if you want
Must have as much Tactical as you can though. Do as much or as little as you like with Engineering; we're not even going to mention it. As capable as possible for the cost, please"
In both cases, the primary requirement is Tactical
We are designing ships to fill the role the Newton served in wartime
The additional functions are secondary; the Federation class is just given a freer hand in defining them than the Miranda
This I could get behind. Something with both storage and vast manufacturing ability, to jump-start colonies. You could easily tweak that to be a fleet tender/deep space repair ship as well. Something with Starfleet-grade warp, that'll spend at least 6 months on-station cranking out colony facilities and then move on to its next target or return to base for refuel and reloading.
Star Trek doesnt work this way
And the QM has been previously rather vocal about this
Keep in mind how small the Star Trek ships in this quest are; the super tankers that carry petroleum in real life are considerably heavier than any ships we've built since the rebalancing
They dont have the mass budget
Not to mention that any such requirement would make them primary targets for enemy nationstate fuckery
I mean, if the Romulans could get their hands on currentgen Fed manufacturing tech by capturing Archers, they would be primary targets in peacetime and would be unable to go anywhere without a big escort
We have an opportunity to aim some of this ship's secondary functions to cover a vulnerability that Starfleet Procurement hasnt realized currently exists in the roster
The only minimums really stated are size and tanky-ness from my reading of that entry. Though the "Depth of capability in vital areas of interest" could read "better engineering and science than the Excalibur" if you squint.
We don't I think have enough Science or Engineering ships ATM to do those jobs. The Newtons took heavy casualties, and the Archers are limited as combatants. They and the Kea are both also last-gen ships that are going to age out of the fleet over the next decades, and certainly can't take on assignments far from secure space- which there is now less of on account of how Starfleet has fewer combat ships.
I think that the Federation-class will actually need to cover a lot of missions just on account of being a newer ship in the Warp 8 fleet, which is limited in number and will remain so for some time yet.
Yeah, but if Starfleet isn't tearing apart wreckage of the various ships destroyed during the war to slap together Archers then it is foolish. They can be slapped together with salvaged parts and they far outstrip any engineering ship we could build this into.
I kinda of feel like I would rather them go to a refilling station twice a year and have more modules, than be able to go only once a year. I mean, what would we have that makes it bad for them to return to civilisation? Is going a few times a year really causing traffic at our Pharos network?
We already have the Excaliburs as a potential ranged threat to the Klingons and Starfleet has already rejected the idea of going to attack them anyway.
If you want this ship to cover as much space volume as it can? If you want to maximize the lifespan of the design
You want it out there on station, not travelling to and from its area of operations to a space station to go tank up on fuel
You want to minimize its maintenance requirements. You want the crews to be comfortable enough onboard ship to minimize time spent in port for RnR
You want it to still have range when the Federation is 300 light years across instead of 150
That means high effective cruise speed requires Crew Quarters + Extra Antimatter to get its groove on
Some things kinda go together
Especially as the Federation continues to expand in size and membership
As for ranged threat, it bears noting that while Starfleet has rejected an offensive, the Federation's enemies neither know nor believe that. Even if they did, they woul have to respect the threat; after all, Starfleet can change its mind. So just by existing, ranged ships present a deterrent effect that must be accounted for, lest a bunch of them show up in Q'nos orbit
Yes, it has a C+ because it has a single general lab and one specialist lab, which is mediocre for a heavy cruiser. Critically, the specialist lab is a stellar dynamics suite which when combined with its long operational range allows it to range out and catalogue new systems.
We don't know how many Excaliburs we lost in total, but it's at least four. Clarent suffered a catastrophic kill at Pharos Seven, Excalibur was destroyed raiding Klingon supply lines, Kusanagi was lost leading a D7 into the Orion Nebula, and Joyeuse was crippled beyond recovery over Andoria. It's unlike that she was the only Excalibur lost there, nor do we know if any others were lost in the skirmishes that weren't covered in story updates.
The science ship you want, filled with labs and specialist equipment, is not what we need for an explorer. If you want an explorer, look to the Vulcan Explorator Corps and their half a million ton dreadnaughts. Those can carry the shields and the sensors and the equipment you actually need to survive insane space bullshit. We're not keeping these things alive by putting in geophysics labs and dilithium analysis suites.
I dont see how you read "There must be a minimum Science of X, minimum Tactical of Y and you are free to " and then came to the conclusion that it means that the science doesnt matter
Or how you looked at the Excalibur's Science C and loss rate then concluded it was a science ship
I mean, I think you're taking an obvious dismissal of science on this ship and twisting it to fit what you want. It's quite clear that a reasonable interpretation of the statement is that Starfleet simply does not care if this ship is good at science or not, and that they would prefer specialties in other fields.
If you want to build a Kea replacement, that's fine, but it's unlikely that we'll get many orders for that, and I don't think it'll help the Federation the way you seem to think. Science is how fast we expand, engineering is how fast we build up, and tactical is how well we can protect it. A lot of people seem to think that somehow the solution to not being able to build up or protect our things is to expand more, as if simply owning more colonies will help us build more ships.
Damn, if we lost that many Excaliburs then shouldn't it be a better idea for this design to be able to do external science.
if so this could replace the Kea/Saladin and the Excalibur losses and that might be ~30+ orders
(there were 28 Kea/Saladins before the 4 year war and and lost ~9 Excaliburs)
Yes, it has a C+ because it has a single general lab and one specialist lab, which is mediocre for a heavy cruiser. Critically, the specialist lab is a stellar dynamics suite which when combined with its long operational range allows it to range out and catalogue new systems.
I'd like to also point out that the C+ Science came from a total of +6 Science points in Modules. The Attenboroughs S rank Science was +10 points in modules
Idk if the number of points to final grade calculations will weight the numbers differently for this project, being a larger build than both combined, but it probably won't take much to earn a B- in Science while leaving plenty of space for high Tactical and Engineering.
The Kea will be in service until 2292, and apparently still has another refit to go. The Excaliburs are refit around the same time and also serve until 2290. The Attenborough/Atwater go until the next century.
If you want to aim for order size, science is a terrible choice. There's just too many ships that already do science lying around, and they even cover all the roles nicely. Excaliburs fly around exploring things around our borders, anything especially interesting can be followed up on by the Attenborough/Atwater, and Keas do in-depth missions in our interior.
And if we want a dedicated explorer, then I suspect that we want to really start pushing how large we can make a ship, because if the Excalibur's high mobility and reasonable durability and space-focused science lab isn't enough to keep them from dying to negative space wedgies, then we're gonna need a lot more than Excalibur but Kea-sized.
If we want to aim for order size why would we go for engineering - that's what the Miranda should be for and they'll be less expensive.
It would make sense for starfleet procurement to order more of those instead because that would be an inherently more flexible fleet.
So I think if we go for engineering then this will just get upstaged by the Miranda, this is why I voted to design the Miranda because it is a much more necessary ship in the current environment.
Certainly this design is as it is, a certain design direction was taken for it and we'll see where it ends us. Though that doesn't mean one can't take lessons from it and ponder what kind of future designs might be possible if one alters some things like switching to a lower tier shield to reduce costs and thus hopefully allow for substantially more size.
One can try I suppose, certainly one could get a reasonable amount of functionality that way. Though the cost of the heavy shields will probably some what limit its ability to outcompete the Miranda on cost. The scaling and better speed might help some what balance that out again admittedly, but it might be a bit of a struggle to do better then it.
