Again it would have not mattered if we put more guns on the recent ships, the Navy command was fundamentally not looking for ships that were too expensive to there eyes, like they saw the Archer as too expensive but because just how good it was doing its job and that logistics really like them and really needed a new ship is the really the only reasons why that such a big number of them was made.
I understand budget plays a part but, I am inclined towards that we could have leaned our designs into a more multi role direction, I am not saying that simply adding more guns would have helped, but Navy command's insistence on penny pinching hurt us. I guess this will be a painful lesson like the dominion war was.
I'm liking the idea more I think about it, though obviously it still needs refinement.
Putting in older, mature tech is fast and can be done anywhere. It can be repaired anywhere.
You want prototype shields? That's not colony work, but if you only have a little tech that pushed average complexity up a bit, they can probably work around it if necessary. It might even be what pushes the tech to be standardised.
We could bang out a ship made of nothing but mature tech, it would be fast and made everywhere. The fastest method to build up numbers. Mature doesn't mean outdated, and with the wait time for parts out on the rim, much easier to maintain and repair.
A ship filled with prototype tech and highly advanced labs? Slow to build, big ship yards with engineers learning as they go. Specialists coming to help with the tricky parts. But still, every region has a Pharos, and they have the skills and tech needed for repair and maintenance.
But experimental tech? Theoretical tech? That's basically being hand made at the most advanced facilities, slowly.
Suddenly the level of advancement of your patrol ship matters a lot more for how its going to be treated fleet wide.
What I don't like about that is then it swings wildly the other way where tiny ships are way more economical than big beefy ones, which is boring as fuck since it'll be 2 dozen designs all good at a single thing since anything else would be inefficient.
What I don't like about that is then it swings wildly the other way where tiny ships are way more economical than big beefy ones, which is boring as fuck since it'll be 2 dozen designs all good at a single thing since anything else would be inefficient.
That shouldn't happen at all?
It's based about complexity more than anything, use standard hull plating and its not complex at all, build huge things no problem.
Small ship built from mature tech should be as fast as a ship can be built, true, but a big ship from mature tech wouldn't be much slower. Raw mass and hull has been shown to not be difficult.
Now, a big ship with all prototype technology and phasers everywhere would be slow to build of course, compared to one with standard technology, but it would be mostly the first few sets. Once the tech drops from prototype to standard, it would get faster and faster to build.
If you make every lab the most high level version it would be slower again, but many ships won't need that.
Like, inherently an engineering ship is more likely to have less complex modules. A cargo bay takes very little time and difficulty to build compared to a physics lab, and doesn't require specialist advice. So a large engineering ship, the workhorse of the fleet, would be faster and easier to produce compared to a science ship the same size.
But we would have control over that too! Does this science ship have general labs, relatively quick and easy to build, or specialist labs? Those are more complex. Is it a standard specialist lab? Or did we choose tier 3 theoretical tech and a brand new supercomputer?
I'll give an example based on my current idea.
The Darwin is small, but designed to be specialised. The engines are standard tech, as is the hull. No complexity there. Our deflectors though, those are minimalist and custom compared to standard. That adds some complexity. It has a landing gear. That's novel, new and therefore complex.
The phasers are minimal, and not complex at all. Straight line to the front, simple as can be. Complexity average reduction. Torpedoes look to be standard, so not simple but not hard.
All in all so far it is considerably more complicated than most ships it's size so far. But the science modules are where a lot of complexity could come from, depending on our choices. We only have a few, so we might go all out on the most advance stuff available. If we did that, this could turn out to be quite a complicated ship to make.
But it's absolutely a novel, small specialist ship, just like was asked. They might not build many, because it's hard to make. But that's fine, they don't need many and its damned good at its job.
But let's compare it to some of the ways it could have turned out. We could have chosen a small saucer, default design, with a massive cylindrical engineering section. That's simple design and no landing gear. No complexity at all. Despite the huge engineering section giving more modules, it's quick to design and quick to build. The extra space let us use a full sized deflector, simple to do compare to our custom. So far this larger variant is actually much easier to build. But now we have 8 modules instead of 4. We could build 2 bioscience specialist labs, a bit of an increase in complexity, but fill the rest with cargo and basic general labs. The ship is now still cheap and easy to make, multi role to an extent, and is probably the science version of the workhorse.
A very valid design compared to ours, produced in much higher quantities, but honestly no better at specific bioscience.
Or we could use the simple design and say "well, this is where they put all their building time" and give it 8 cutting edge labs all focused on a different speciality based on biological science.
Suddenly this isn't a simple ship, it's a floating university in a no frills case. This thing is even harder to build than our Darwin. It can't land, and has to rely on transportation to get to the planet. But by God, the science score. The science score! They won't order many, it will be slower to make, but when it arrives to where science needs to be done, it's going to get done!
Hope that demonstrates how using complexity instead of cost let's us balance ship design.
Obviously a massive complicated ship is going to be slow to build under this system. But that's kind of the point. Whatever Explorer or flagship we make is produced in limited numbers for a reason. It's the best at everything, can do anything, and it's hard enough to build that there is limited numbers compared to the workhorse designs. But that's what our hero type captains roll in, and they do stuff worthy of the movies in them. Other ships of the same size just have less cutting edge modules by design, and get built faster.
Eventually an Explorer has been around long enough its tech becomes standard, they order a second or third batch and its still an incredible ship, but by the time it's mature tech and fast to build... well, we would be looking at making a new Explorer, and the old one is now a workhorse. They will be in service a long time, be very useful, but it's no longer the best choice for the wild frontier.
Edit: anyway, that's one idea. I've championed it enough now, any more would be getting pushy. If nothing else hopefully it serves as inspiration.
This takes all the joy and excitement out of having gambled super hard and won on getting the theoretical Type-3 thrusters out early without gutting their performance.
I don't see how it just means that the ship classes will grow with the tech level. If anything it would make make me jump in joy all the stuff i can jam on with the extra mass
It occurs to me that the reason we haven't had a vote yet is that we probably had to clear the docks for new-builds and repair work - there straight up isn't the time/resources for continuing with the Darwin at the moment.
Yeah, that'd be my guess - a mix of that, and Warp 8 engines being earmarked for the Excalibur-class crash builds that IIRC started in 2240 meaning we're not going to be able to get a warp core for our prototype (as for why so few are being built, relatively new warp core type + needing to build warp cores for other ship classes, presumably).
I do think it's possible that, after the Darwin, we might get asked to do an engineering cruiser, to replace the rather alarming losses incurred by the Newton-class in service.
do think it's possible that, after the Darwin, we might get asked to do an engineering cruiser, to replace the rather alarming losses incurred by the Newton-class in service.
Starfleet do probably need an up to date Newton, but I think that depending on what other projects come up it should probably be given to SanFran.
Much like with the Darwin/Satellite choice, I'd rather give something they can't really fuck up to them than have something that's a rather important capability (like a Spacedock style starbase) where going all it is better come down to them.
We actually are using a standard warp 8 core. We had the option to mount a compact core, but decided not to. That's why we have that engineering hull sticking down.
I do think it's possible that, after the Darwin, we might get asked to do an engineering cruiser, to replace the rather alarming losses incurred by the Newton-class in service.
It would be awesome to do so, since I'd remind everyone again we're still using the Cygnus class, which is a pre-Federation design. Our replacement for it is also a warp 7 design, so our fleet is that much less mobile. If we could make something faster, stronger and better at engineering support that'd majorly prop up our fleet. After that, my vote's for a sagarmatha replacement, big powerful science ship with lots of bonus extras.
Edit If we do a next gen kea I'd suggest we could make it as big as possible, that'll give us crazy shield strength which the kea is displaying now and still go crazy on research labs. We could then give it enhanced medical facilities to synergize with bio science and also so it can operate better as a flagship, treating wounded etc aboard the most protected vessel while in the field.
Introduction
The branching expansion of parallel timelines continues to multiply the threats we may potentially face. Timeline 002.HTC.KH is the latest identified branch of the "Mirror Universe", primarily identified by the introduction of the Excalibur-class USS Hauteclere to Timeline 002 from Timeline 001.3S, and an incursion by a previously-unknown traveller between dimensions and time. See Mission Report [REDACTED] for details on DTI's failure to contain this unwanted deviation. Agents operating in this timeline need to be aware that unknown temporal patrons are protecting the Subject and further attempts at direct intervention are off the table at this time. Like other branches of Timeline 002, the dominant polities within it show a tendency towards militarism, xenophobia and imperialism, representing a grave threat should they be encountered.
The Conquistador is an example of this, posing an extreme hazard to friendly vessels of the same timeframe. Despite the lesser overall education level across the Terran population compared to most Prime timelines, the plundered databanks of Timeline 001.3S's 2268-era were used to maximum effect by the Subject to force the fruits of Federation scientists and engineers' ingenuity and hard work into existence years ahead of time. Combined with extreme levels of heavy industry development, fueled by kings' ransoms of resources flowing into Sol from its conquered subjects, the Terran Empire was just barely able to afford these mind-boggling battleships.
Warp Systems
Terran scientists and trusted nonhuman technical experts worked overtime to calculate the next-generation Warp physics for this monster, but they were able to crib the notes of their future counterparts who had long since identified all the gremlins in their Type-3 Nacelles. The 'supercruise' quad-nacelle experiment of the Federation Radiant-class is repeated here, allowing the Conquistadors to steadily eat up the light-years between them and their missions' faraway primary targets at up to a shocking Warp 6.7 without straining the engines. The Terrans were able to free up room in the saucer without compromising performance by migrating the navigational deflector to a ventral hull blister.
Weapons
The Conquistador significantly exceeds the firepower of the TL001.3S Sagarmatha by devoting more volume and tonnage to tactical systems.
Phasers
The Type-1 Mk.II Phaser is the Empire's inefficient-yet-effective upgrade over the standard Type-1 (MK.I) inherited from Hauteclere's library computer. The Sagarmatha's phasers included an extra capacitor that would lend extra punch to her opening volley, and her Terran doppelganger doubles down on that. All fourteen of the single-mount phasers are serviced by 100% more capacitors despite the painful additional cost in manufactured components and space inside the hull, allowing for each emitter to fire on overcharge settings multiple times before being forced to return to standard output.
Torpedoes
The forwardmost compartments of Decks Two and Three are completely consumed by triple Type-1 photon torpedo launch tubes and their magazines, while the Conquistador's aft arc is covered by a pair of tubes on Deck Six beneath the shuttlebay. A special payload of torpedoes with cobalt-jacketed fusion cluster-bombs is also included to sterilize a planet in a single salvo, if the Conquistador's target proves too strong to conquer.
Other Systems
Shields
If the ruinous expense of nearly every other system on this enormous vessel isn't enough, the Emperor did not settle for Standard Type-1 Shields, but a Heavy Shield Generator Array. On a vessel of this size, this produces an extremely stout shield grid capable of absorbing fire from multiple attackers.
Small Craft
Carrying multiple armed shuttlecraft with docking clamps for war skimmers, the Conquistador already packs far more planetary assault capability than any Starfleet vessel, even before taking into account the 'Captain's Yacht'. This is a superheavy assault lander externally docked under the saucer, with heavy shields, armor and weapons, and a forward assault ramp to allow an entire company of Marines to storm the target position in mere moments on occasions when transporters are unsuitable for use.
Sublight Engines
A pair of Imperial-standard Type 1 Impulse Drives push the Conquistador's massive bulk through maneuvers with stately grace, but not even the most ridiculous Imperial propaganda tries to call this battleship swift or agile.
Other Capabilities
The Conquistador's non-combat capabilities are fairly minimal, though her multiple cargo bays and cargo transporter offer significant utility. Three battalions worth of stasis pods and the space they take up could conceivably be re-used in many ways, and her Planetary Assault Strategy Center is a major hub for communications, so the ship is fit to serve as the Captain-Governor's flying palace for decades to come if needed.
Overall Summary
An example of what can be done if absolutely no expense is spared, the Conquistador joins the ranks of Mirror-Universe battleships overgunned enough to fight a fleet all by themselves. However, unlike the typical such vessel built solely for self-aggrandizement, this design comes with the coldly-calculated purpose of conquering notable civilizations that have never even seen a Terran before. While DTI has successfully destiny-locked all nine of these vessels to their fates, it still remains possible - if improbable - that a Schrodinger Event may cause the originally-planned tenth vessel to spontaneously begin existing. If encountered, our official best recommendation* is to run for the nearest spatial anomaly, the more dangerous the better. *Whomever suggested 'transport it to the TL001.3S Four Years' War against the Klingons' is being written up for official reprimand. TIMELINE BRANCH EVENTS ARE NOT A JOKE!
Terran Empire Rating Score
Cost: F Infrastructure: F Maneuverability: Low Single Target: S Multi-Target: A+ Engineering: C Science: D-
Deckplan (Rooms listed from bow to stern):
Deck 1: Conference Room, Bridge, Officers' Quarters Deck 2: Forward Photon Torpedo Magazine, Dorsal Phasers, Main Fire Control, Bathrooms, Officers' Quarters, Officers' Mess Hall Deck 3: Forward Photon Torpedo Bay, Main Deflector Control, Security Office, Agony Booths, Planetary Assault Strategy Center, Enviornmental Control & Systems Monitoring, Aft Dorsal Phasers, Vehicle Storage Deck 4: Marine Stasis Pods, Main Turbolift Access & Maintenance, Main Cargo Bay Deck 5: Marine Stasis Pods, Sickbay, Main Transporter Room, Main Computer Core, Marine Stasis Pods, Warp Core, Shuttlebay Deck 6: Secondary Cargo Bay (Prefabricated Garrison Bases), Cargo Transporter, Gymnasium, Antimatter Pods, Aft Ventral Phasers, Aft Photon Torpedo Bay Deck 7: Forward Ventral Phasers, Enlisted Mess Hall, Enlisted Barracks, Bathrooms, Sonic Showers Deck 8: Enlisted Barracks Decks 9&10: Main Deflector, Navigational Dome, Heavy Assault Lander
~~~ ~~~ ~~~
Credit goes Sayle for making the original Sagarmatha/Kea pixel art (and the entire Quest!), to @A Bunch Of Atoms for helping make the warp speed graph, and Mechanis for the format of this report. Also 1wyrmshadow1 on DeviantArt for their Terran Empire insignia!
We actually are using a standard warp 8 core. We had the option to mount a compact core, but decided not to. That's why we have that engineering hull sticking down.
I do find it odd that we didn't get a mid-war project for crash-building a new warship, like we did with the United Earth-Romulan Empire war. Those were really fun!
Also makes me wonder why Project Darwin is going forward at all given that the entire premise for its mission is kind of moot at this point. Starfleet is going to desperately need to restore its fleet for literally defending the Federation from external threats. If that isn't churning out Excaliburs at maximum rate, then it's going to be something along similar lines that is a formidable combatant that can take a punch and dish one out.
The Darwin...well, it's decently armed, but not heavily, and its durability is not up to snuff. It's also an aspirational "bonus frontier science" design when the top 3 priorities are going to be "more warships" "more warships" and "more warships".
It's possible that in a post war area that's been controlled by the Klingons, no assistance from starfleet for literal years, that a bio focused science ship might be very handy to deal with whatever strange and novel diseases have rocked up.
But honestly we have Archers for fast mass engineering reconstruction and supplies, so that's already covered during recovery.
My only regret is that we never got to use the archers to make hospital containers or satellite deployers. We lost multiple ships trying to combat drop a small cargo of satellites... Archers really feel like they would be a valuable addition if you slam a button, explosive bolts blow, and an extra dozen phasers enter the fight.
I do find it odd that we didn't get a mid-war project for crash-building a new warship, like we did with the United Earth-Romulan Empire war. Those were really fun!
Also makes me wonder why Project Darwin is going forward at all given that the entire premise for its mission is kind of moot at this point. Starfleet is going to desperately need to restore its fleet for literally defending the Federation from external threats. If that isn't churning out Excaliburs at maximum rate, then it's going to be something along similar lines that is a formidable combatant that can take a punch and dish one out.
The Darwin...well, it's decently armed, but not heavily, and its durability is not up to snuff. It's also an aspirational "bonus frontier science" design when the top 3 priorities are going to be "more warships" "more warships" and "more warships".
We have Newton-class support cruisers, Excalibur-class battlecruisers, both are designs still in production. We didn't have to do a crash-design this time, only a crash-build to churn out already-optimized designs. I won't repeat myself, anyone who's read the posts I've been spamming the last week knows what I have to say about current and future designs...
But we were told project Darwin won't be produced until after the war, it's perfectly reasonable that Starfleet doesn't want any more combat ship designs for now and will simply make more tranches of existing current ones for the next 5-10 years. Once we've done our bio-survey ship, we'll probably be asked to make a defense station of some sort, an engineering cruiser, a science cruiser, or design the v4 nacelle.
Also makes me wonder why Project Darwin is going forward at all given that the entire premise for its mission is kind of moot at this point. Starfleet is going to desperately need to restore its fleet for literally defending the Federation from external threats. If that isn't churning out Excaliburs at maximum rate, then it's going to be something along similar lines that is a formidable combatant that can take a punch and dish one out.
It is quite hard to imagine there being another good larger cruiser or battleship/explorer design immediately post war, none of the design bureaus should have anything available at that size for quite awhile yet after all. And with a fair few of the larger ships lost you'd think they'd have to at least start on replacing some of those losses with whatever design is adequate to modern needs and available right now.
So normally you'd expect that after the first round of emergency builds of Exacaliburs during the war, they'll just start another 6 or so because they need more heavy ships and have nothing better to plug the hole with yet. The best I could see them do is a modest revision, use some of the maturing of the various technologies to reduce component costs, some design streamlining and modest improvements, and then perhaps switch out the shield grid for a Covariant one instead, overall total cost would be probably not to different compared to the early runs, but it would give one a substantially tougher ship. I guess because something like that might be a substantive enough revision you'd call it Excalibur-B or something then. This would also create a pathway so you could then refit any ships that were more damaged in the war to the same new standard as well. Something like that would possibly not even need a design bureau to do, but if it did the bureaus seem like they might have had a bit of time in the war for such things.
Of course this is in the end me just speculating on what seems like reasonable options, but it's hard to imagine what else Starfleet can realistically do.
For instance they can make some Archers because it's an exceptionally good engineering vessel and that will help refill the engineering and service vessel numbers. It being only a Warp 7 being much less of demerit for that role. And they might be making Newton or something through the war as they don't have that much choice light cruiser wise. But how many could they have possibly made in a few years? And they'd probably want to transition to the new science ship afterwards as it seems likely it won't be any worse for things like combat then the Newton and it will be able to get around much faster. Even if it's a bit of a specialist, it would give the yards something better to make till a further light cruiser design shows up. In general they should really want to not make any more Warp 7 craft then they absolutely have to, as clearly the Warp 8 and up series will do far better in response speeds in the much larger Federation they have to cover now. And response speed was a big part of their problem in this war.
Well maybe some one else can think of an alternate ship building program that makes more sense then what I just considered. But with them being quite some dozens of ships in the hole they have to fill it with something. And with the Federation only getting bigger, even with faster warp systems, they probably are going to need more ships post war then pre-war as well.
So what else can they do but continue running the Excalibur design for awhile? Especially as it will be expected to be good in future for a Warp 9 refit.
My only regret is that we never got to use the archers to make hospital containers or satellite deployers. We lost multiple ships trying to combat drop a small cargo of satellites... Archers really feel like they would be a valuable addition if you slam a button, explosive bolts blow, and an extra dozen phasers enter the fight.
By the time you finish putting the necessary power generation, shielding, and maneuvering elements so it's not a sitting duck, you've probably only got one or two phasers in a still-fragile platform out of the pod. It's not done because it's genuinely not worthwhile, and the pods are better used for hauling cargo, as they're intended.
It is quite hard to imagine there being another good larger cruiser or battleship/explorer design immediately post war, none of the design bureaus should have anything available at that size for quite awhile yet after all. And with a fair few of the larger ships lost you'd think they'd have to at least start on replacing some of those losses with whatever design is adequate to modern needs and available right now.
So normally you'd expect that after the first round of emergency builds of Exacaliburs during the war, they'll just start another 6 or so because they need more heavy ships and have nothing better to plug the hole with yet. The best I could see them do is a modest revision, use some of the maturing of the various technologies to reduce component costs, some design streamlining and modest improvements, and then perhaps switch out the shield grid for a Covariant one instead, overall total cost would be probably not to different compared to the early runs, but it would give one a substantially tougher ship. I guess because something like that might be a substantive enough revision you'd call it Excalibur-B or something then. This would also create a pathway so you could then refit any ships that were more damaged in the war to the same new standard as well. Something like that would possibly not even need a design bureau to do, but if it did the bureaus seem like they might have had a bit of time in the war for such things.
Of course this is in the end me just speculating on what seems like reasonable options, but it's hard to imagine what else Starfleet can realistically do.
For instance they can make some Archers because it's an exceptionally good engineering vessel and that will help refill the engineering and service vessel numbers. It being only a Warp 7 being much less of demerit for that role. And they might be making Newton or something through the war as they don't have that much choice light cruiser wise. But how many could they have possibly made in a few years? And they'd probably want to transition to the new science ship afterwards as it seems likely it won't be any worse for things like combat then the Newton and it will be able to get around much faster. Even if it's a bit of a specialist, it would give the yards something better to make till a further light cruiser design shows up. In general they should really want to not make any more Warp 7 craft then they absolutely have to, as clearly the Warp 8 and up series will do far better in response speeds in the much larger Federation they have to cover now. And response speed was a big part of their problem in this war.
Well maybe some one else can think of an alternate ship building program that makes more sense then what I just considered. But with them being quite some dozens of ships in the hole they have to fill it with something. And with the Federation only getting bigger, even with faster warp systems, they probably are going to need more ships post war then pre-war as well.
So what else can they do but continue running the Excalibur design for awhile? Especially as it will be expected to be good in future for a Warp 9 refit.
After the war the surviving Excalibur-class ships faced an uncertain future. Lacking the facilities to participate in the rebuilding efforts they were assigned to suppressing the surge in piracy caused by the depletion of Starfleet's patrol roster and flying the flag near contested borders with the Tholian Assembly and Gorn Hegemony. They finally entered their second stage of life in the 2250s when a recovered Starfleet turned its attention back to beyond its borders.
--I think it's likely that if we even have a design project in the immediate post-war, that it'll be an anti-piracy patrol vessel. Though it's also possible that Sayle is thoroughly bored with this era and skips forward?
By the time you finish putting the necessary power generation, shielding, and maneuvering elements so it's not a sitting duck, you've probably only got one or two phasers in a still-fragile platform out of the pod. It's not done because it's genuinely not worthwhile, and the pods are better used for hauling cargo, as they're intended
Attempts to relieve far-flung outposts or even just to deploy defensive satellites in the outer colonies resulted in serious losses to the cargo service and the Cygnus-class,
I mean, the Cygnus only had engineering 5, and a vaguely rated but visibly small cargo tag. It's also less than ten percent better defence score than the Archer.
If that's good enough to try doing a combat drop of satellites, the Archer would have been able to do so much more - even with just it's internal cargo bays.
So it honestly surprises me they didn't do it, unless the archers are just literally too valuable to pull from their current roles, which is possible but surpising.
Oh, perhaps we just can't build the satellites in Archer worthy quantities? It would explain the choice of the much smaller cargo ship
--I think it's likely that if we even have a design project in the immediate post-war, that it'll be an anti-piracy patrol vessel. Though it's also possible that Sayle is thoroughly bored with this era and skips forward?
I hope Sayle doesn't get bored of this, because I'm curious how things will play out after the early Klingon war. Are we going to have a conflict with the Orions beyond skirmishing? Will we have ongoing hostilities with the Klingons? Will we have a second war with the Klingons in 20 years time? Will the Gorn or Tholians become our adversaries? Will Starfleet become more isolationist or expand outwards more after the rebuilding is finished in the 2250s? What effect is going to occur with Federation technology as the 23rd century unfolds? Will our weapons technology in particular start to diverge more from canon?
I'm thoroughly enjoying this, I keep checking it on my lunch breaks to see if there's been an update.
Sorry for random comment out of the blue, but did we ever get solid specs for the Radiant-class? Because I can't think of any of our designs that failed due to excessive cost, I'm really curious how the Radiant was a failed design. One would've thought it was littered with stuff like reinforced shields, RFL photorps etc. That should've made it very potent, yet 3 of 4 got wiped out doing relief work. Wondering just how powerful they are, exactly, and whether they were geared for science, engineering, transport etc.
So I hated how the Newton design turned out enough to do my own fully noncanon version of it right away. My hope is that this manages to cross over into 'charmingly eccentric,' rather than 'universally hideous.'
If nothing else, we can call it the Mirror-Universe version.
I'll be appending this to the original Newton-class MSD shortly.
