Starfleet Design Bureau

The question is if the percent increase in total cost is worth the percent increase in defense power. I think the answer is no. Large covariant has slightly more percent shield increase(25% shield power vs 20% total cost increase), but that excludes the defensive value of the hull and ignores that the point of designing a highly mobile ship is that we won't get into a straight attritional damage*durability fight.
Though there is admittedly an appeal to being both disgustingly tough and disgustingly hard to hit, we're definitely going to need to look carefully at the costs for shields.
 
The question is if the percent increase in total cost is worth the percent increase in defense power. I think the answer is no. Large covariant has slightly more percent shield increase(25% shield power vs 20% total cost increase), but that excludes the defensive value of the hull and ignores that the point of designing a highly mobile ship is that we won't get into a straight attritional damage*durability fight.
This is where I really wish starfleet intelligence was more on the ball. Knowing how much damage we would take on an Alpha strike from the Klingons would let us build around being able to survive the first salvo before maneuvers come into play.
 
I thought the implication is that we can't actually put in Large shields, because those require a bigger hull than we have? We're the smallest hullform that we could have, I'm pretty sure we're locked at small shields?
If that were the case the prices wouldn't be measured per 100kt. Also just because we went for basically the smallest hull option doesn't mean that the ship is small in an absolute sense.
 
Though there is admittedly an appeal to being both disgustingly tough and disgustingly hard to hit, we're definitely going to need to look carefully at the costs for shields.
I'd say that for the simple addition of 2.5 to the cost a standard covariant is quite an attractive choice, since it'll get it out to the fleet sooner rather than later (and cheaper than just ignoring it for now would).
 
I thought the implication is that we can't actually put in Large shields, because those require a bigger hull than we have? We're the smallest hullform that we could have, I'm pretty sure we're locked at small shields?
Nah, we could probably put it in the police cutter even, I think the whole 'small, standard, large' thing is an attempt to work in @Fouredged Sword idea about more module/non-module granularity and that impacting things.
 
I'm n favour of a standard covariant, not only is it the same strength as the large regular for only 2.5 more cost it'll help us get the type 1 covariant shields out to the rest of the fleet sooner and cheaper as a result.
It's only 2.5 after they standardize with the second tranche ships. It's 6.5 before that which is a pretty big chunk of change for zero direct benefit. Given we'll be building these in bulk it's probably worth at least an extra ship.
Though there is admittedly an appeal to being both disgustingly tough and disgustingly hard to hit, we're definitely going to need to look carefully at the costs for shields.
I'd say that being hard to hit tends to devalue additional defensive spending. In general it's most efficient for offensive and defensive spending to be about equal. We've spent a fair bit in engines, and will spend more on shields to make ourselves tough, spending too much is a waste versus more ships or more armaments.
 
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The question is if the percent increase in total cost is worth the percent increase in defense power. I think the answer is no. Large covariant has slightly more percent shield increase(25% shield power vs 20% total cost increase), but that excludes the defensive value of the hull and ignores that the point of designing a highly mobile ship is that we won't get into a straight attritional damage*durability fight.
You are overlooking the strategic implications of progressing that technology branch faster for the rest of Starfleet.
Id probably disagree.

And frankly, while you might not plan to get into an attritional damage*durability fight?
Your enemy gets a vote.
That added durability might make all the difference against D7s.
 
You are overlooking the strategic implications of progressing that technology branch faster for the rest of Starfleet.
Id probably disagree.

And frankly, while you might not plan to get into an attritional damage*durability fight?
Your enemy gets a vote.
That added durability might make all the difference against D7s.
The shields are very close to standardizing anyways. Like 2235 is not far away.

The point of engines is to fundamentally deny them the ability to do that. We invested a significant amount in building a ship that had tactical options past pointing at the enemy and hoping that they die before we do.

EDIT: Also just realized, we didn't use the covariant shields before so they're subject to a prototype roll. We fail that and additionally the first tranche ships will have less shields than a ship that didn't use the prototype tech. The Standard covariant has the same durability as the Large Type-1, not more.
 
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I thought the implication is that we can't actually put in Large shields, because those require a bigger hull than we have? We're the smallest hullform that we could have, I'm pretty sure we're locked at small shields?
I think it's mainly just there as a way to let us manage costs more when designing ships.

If we were commissioned to design a giant dirt cheap Archer successor which isn't expected to get shot at period then it makes sense to use the small shields over the big ones since the big ones cost a lot more per 100kt of ship tonnage.

Alternatively an rapid response ship for the Federation interior that is expected to fight the occasional pirate ship isn't going to need or want the largest bleeding edge shields we have but since it's still expected to get shot at it would make sense to give it the standard sized shields so it can still take hits.
 
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You are overlooking the strategic implications of progressing that technology branch faster for the rest of Starfleet.
Id probably disagree.
It's an important consideration for certain. But this is also a time where we need to focus on the now just as much as the future, because we need fleets in the... streets?
Well, you know what I mean.
 
The way I see it our choice of shields is going to directly influence our choice of armament, with three options:

If we pick the Large Covariant shields then we may want to stick with 3 standard launchers, both to save on price and because we can afford a longer engagement where we take more hits.

Large Standard or Medium Covariant shields are the middle ground option that similarly would benefit from a mixed torpedo loadout

Small Standard shields are the goto option for the madlads who want to run three rapid launchers and hope we pass the prototype roll to get a 9 torpedo alpha strike, because you ain't affording that shit otherwise.
 
You are overlooking the strategic implications of progressing that technology branch faster for the rest of Starfleet.
Id probably disagree.

And frankly, while you might not plan to get into an attritional damage*durability fight?
Your enemy gets a vote.
That added durability might make all the difference against D7s.
They're close to standardising, and are a dead end that doesn't progress to the next shield tech anyway.

We were explicitly warned about Cost in the brief - the Federation needs these ships in large numbers yesterday.

We should pick a non-Covariant shield.
 
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You are overlooking the strategic implications of progressing that technology branch faster for the rest of Starfleet.
Id probably disagree.

And frankly, while you might not plan to get into an attritional damage*durability fight?
Your enemy gets a vote.
That added durability might make all the difference against D7s.
With this in mind i'd argue in favor of pushing the most cost effective prototype.
 
The way I see it our choice of shields is going to directly influence our choice of armament, with three options:

If we pick the Large Covariant shields then we may want to stick with 3 standard launchers, both to save on price and because we can afford a longer engagement where we take more hits.

Large Standard or Medium Covariant shields are the middle ground option that similarly would benefit from a mixed torpedo loadout

Small Standard shields are the goto option for the madlads who want to run three rapid launchers and hope we pass the prototype roll to get a 9 torpedo alpha strike, because you ain't affording that shit otherwise.
I'd say it's pretty precisely the opposite. If we pick a ship with extremely expensive shields, we actually want to fit as much firepower as possible. The reason is that if we're using 40 points of shields to protect 15 points of weapons, it's wasteful. We will live somewhat longer than a ship with 20 points of shields(but not twice as long), but we will deal way less damage than 40 points of weapons would.

It's a relative cost problem basically. Better shields provide a relative benefit to a ship's durability independent of its actual cost. But the relative cost goes down as the rest of the ship's cost goes up. So the more expensive a ship is/is expected to be, the more the costs of better shields make sense.
 
They're close to standardising, and are a dead end that doesn't progress to the next shield tech anyway.

We were explicitly warned about Cost in the brief - the Federation needs these ships in large numbers yesterday.

We should pick a non-Covariant shield.
On the other hand, it's been explicitly said in the updates our Type 1 shield tech is obsolete and shite these days. They will *not* be up to the task in the least if a D7 manages to land a solid hit on this ship.
 
On the other hand, it's been explicitly said in the updates our Type 1 shield tech is obsolete and shite these days. They will *not* be up to the task in the least if a D7 manages to land a solid hit on this ship.
The standard sized Covariant has exactly the same shield power as the Large Type-1. And we spent a big chunk of money getting max maneuverability- if our plan was to trade blows with the D7, why not go with minimum thrust?
 
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They're close to standardising, and are a dead end that doesn't progress to the next shield tech anyway.

We were explicitly warned about Cost in the brief - the Federation needs these ships in large numbers yesterday.

We should pick a non-Covariant shield.
We've been told our present standard shields are showing their age/kinda shit now, that finding our true next generation/revolutionary shield is troubling the tech guys and that in the meantime this offers a notable increase in shield capacity for a given mass.

We're gonna be in a war with some of the snootiest ships around and having covariants as standard now will mean that even if they're obsoleted not too long after the war we'll have a hell of a lot more surviving hulls to put those new shields on.
 
We've been told our present standard shields are showing their age/kinda shit now, that finding our true next generation/revolutionary shield is troubling the tech guys and that in the meantime this offers a notable increase in shield capacity for a given mass.

We're gonna be in a war with some of the snootiest ships around and having covariants as standard now will mean that even if they're obsoleted not too long after the war we'll have a hell of a lot more surviving hulls to put those new shields on.
The standard covariant is not any tougher than the large Type-1. And it could be less tough, because this is an untested prototype tech.

EDIT: Consider this relative to the armaments. We could take two RF + one standard for 32.5 cost, which would mean a cost increase of 12.75 for 25% more firepower, versus the covariant large being a cost increase of 18 for 25% more shield power. So clearly we should do the former in preference to the latter. I don't think that either actually makes sense though.
 
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Folks please don't use approval voting for the top two designs, just chose the one you actually want to win.

Approval voting is great, but only in certain situations.
 
It's an important consideration for certain. But this is also a time where we need to focus on the now just as much as the future, because we need fleets in the... streets?
Well, you know what I mean.
Sure.
The delta in costs between 2x Type-1 Large and 2x Type-1 Covariant Standard is around 8.5, which is roughly a little less than half the costs of a single rapid launcher.

Im not convinced this is much of a financial issue.
They're close to standardising, and are a dead end that doesn't progress to the next shield tech anyway.

We were explicitly warned about Cost in the brief - the Federation needs these ships in large numbers yesterday.

We should pick a non-Covariant shield.
You are overplaying that IMO. The exact quote is:
The metrics are simple: it needs to take a punch and hit back, the cheaper the better. While Starfleet will never say no to engineering and scientific capability, what it really needs is something to dissuade the eruption of open hostility with neighbouring powers. Increased spending needs to be tactically justifiable, and the more ships the fleetyards can pump out of the resulting heavy cruiser design the better. For that reason the expectation is the ship should mass around two hundred thousand tons, which is what your cost and efficiency metrics are assuming.
Cost is a factor, but secondary to achieving mission effectiveness and mass-produceability.

Can I get a citation for Covariant being a dead end?
I dont rcall that.
 
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