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You don't have to do this, incidentally. (You can, it certainly doesn't hurt anything, but you don't need to.) The vote tally automatically uses each user's most recent vote, disregarding any previous ones.
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[X] 140 Meter Half-Saucer (140,000 Tons)
Actually statwise, the Kea retrofitted with Type-1 torpedoes is effectively like a mildly worse Sagarmatha. The stats aren't conveniently in one place because the Kea's entry only shows her production and not refit stats, so I've collated them for reference:
It's not going to beat a D6 one-on-one, but it can plausibly hold its own for a while and get some licks in. And a retrofitted Kea paired up with almost any other starship could plausibly take a D6 down. And a Bird of Prey would certainly be no match one on one, especially given the Kea can always hit it.
As per the Project Galileo Review, the Kea torpedo refit occurs in 2240. This was when the timeline had the Federation-Klingon War ended up starting in the 2267, whereas we've now shifted into a timeline where it begins earlier. Notably the Project Galileo Review says that the 2240s was when the war was "originally anticipated" to begin. If we look at the dates given for the production runs of the Archer class in the Project Halley Retrospective, it seems like the war, now called the "Four Year War", probably begins roughly around 2240-41, because the production run of Archer-class ships intended to replace losses immediately after the war starts in 2245. So the 2240 refit will have happened just in time before the outbreak of hostilities. Notably this is what the Galileo retrospective says was initially intended, so everything fits together quite nicely.
Also of interest, according to the Galileo retrospective, nine of the refit-Kea class ships survived out of sixteen in service, compared to six of the fifteen Saladin class ships in service at that time. So by all accounts they did pretty well as stopgap cruisers. It is extra hilarious to imagine that if the torpedo refit takes place in 2240 and the Type-1 Rapid Launcher is in general service by then, a torpedo refit-Kea would suddenly have fairly good chances of killing a D6 solo. But realistically I think even if we introduce it on the Constitution, the Rapid Launcher may still be too expensive by that point for refitting a science cruiser into a second-line warship. It would be much more economical to use up residual production of the older Type-1 launchers as the lines wind down, and save it for a new escort class or something.
Either way, it's another sixteen fairly solid second-line combatants.
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[X] 140 Meter Thin Saucer (140,000 Tons) [Canon: Constitution-class]
ii like the possibility of a 3x engine design rather than being forced into 2 or 4
ii like the possibility of a 3x engine design rather than being forced into 2 or 4
[X] 140 Meter Half-Saucer (140,000 Tons)
This new vote is interesting as it now presents the half saucer cannon saucer dilemma as more efficient shields or more impulse thrusters. Which means the choice is do we shore up our shields since we have the warp 8 engine and the type 3 impulse thrusters, or do we go all in on our strengthened impulse capability with the half saucer.
Personally I think with the better impulse thrusters we can forgo a spread out phaser configuration and make our constitution hit hard and fast.
Edit: I have been informed this analysis is false but now there's frankly even less reason in my mind to pick the full saucer.
Personally I think with the better impulse thrusters we can forgo a spread out phaser configuration and make our constitution hit hard and fast.
Edit: I have been informed this analysis is false but now there's frankly even less reason in my mind to pick the full saucer.
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Hopefully, but Starfleet may find it not so economical to refit the ships when they are incompatible with the Warp 8 core. It may be better to keep the facilities free to build additional new cruisers rather than refitting old ships that won't be able to intercept or flee from the D7.
The thick full saucer is not 200kt, the mass numbers include the saucer and nacelles.
Also as a reminder, the Sagarmatha saucer is analogous with the thick full saucer, not the thin one.
Similarly, we are unlikely to be able to mount 4 regular Torpedo launchers on any of the saucers because as noted back during the Sagarmatha design vote the Sagamartha saucer only has space for 2 forward launchers.
Given the fact that the biggest saucer available is supposed to be comparable to the Sagarmatha's saucer finding the space for an extra 2 torpedoes is probably a pipe dream.
With that in mind, probably going with the thin saucer.
[X] 140 Meter Thin Saucer (140,000 Tons) [Canon: Constitution-class]
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This is entirely fluff; the thin saucer does not actually have any benefit in shield pricing over the half-saucer:
... That's an excellent point, and if we pick rapid launchers they probably standardize sooner than their current 2240 date.
I'm pretty sure refits will only use standard equipment.
Still probably not an outcome to bet on; if we need to go double rapid on the Constitution, I suspect there won't be enough of the things to go 'round, because every one Starfleet can afford to build will be going into a Constitution rather than being available for refit.
Horologer
Incertae sedis
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- a risen sea
If the half-saucer was just objectively superior to the thin saucer, the thin saucer wouldn't be an option.
The advantage of the half-saucer is that you can mount four Type-2 impulse thrusters on it very easily. That's useful if you go above 180K tons and you are demanding maximum maneuverability, but I'm not interested in doing that.
The disadvantage of half-saucers has generally been that they trade space for maneuverability. I don't see the need for more maneuverability, and since I want a fairly compact ship I don't want to trade away any more space than is necessary.
KlavoHunter
THOU SHALT WORSHIP NO GODS ABOVE ENTERPRISE!
Keep a copy of those Sayle quotes about the losses sustained in the 4-Year War somewhere safe, because I am suspecting that us creating a kickass Connie will have knock-on effects reducing those losses somewhat...
Once again, what's needed is defense to survive the inevitable Klingon Alpha strikes from stealth. That means better shield coverage, and with less mass that means we can not only build more hulls but out Archers and Pharos setups will be able to more effectively get them back into action more quickly after the fighting finishes. You're never going to be able to dodge an ambush strike from stealth - that's the entire point of the tactic in the first place.
Folks need to understand that Starfleet simply doesn't have a doctrine built around first-strike initiative, which is where maximizing agility in a dogfight shines the most. Better defense means that the underpowered but wider coverage basis for our phaser banks can be brought to bear for superior clapback under the most likely engagement scenario.
That's why the thin-saucer is frankly a much better fit for the Federation's needs right now.
Folks need to understand that Starfleet simply doesn't have a doctrine built around first-strike initiative, which is where maximizing agility in a dogfight shines the most. Better defense means that the underpowered but wider coverage basis for our phaser banks can be brought to bear for superior clapback under the most likely engagement scenario.
That's why the thin-saucer is frankly a much better fit for the Federation's needs right now.
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Oh, well, in that case you have correctly understood everything and are in fact voting for the thing that will get you what you want.
I (and probably ninety percent of the thread) think you're wrong- you're literally the first person to say anything about not wanting to go for max maneuverability- but it's certainly an opinion you could hold, theoretically, I suppose
That might be how they're killing many of our ships, but that's just because it's convenient.
Based on the description of how D6s have been fighting Sagarmathas, they can whoop our ass just fine in open battle, too.
TheShadowDeamon
Mighty Dragon
[X] 140 Meter Half-Saucer (140,000 Tons)
If we went for 4x type 2 impulse engines and multiple standard torpedeo launchers. It is possible that after the war we refit with only 2x type 3 impulse engines and 1 or 2 rapid fire torpedo launchers. The space this then clears up could be put towards all those lovely SCIENCE!! labs we love so much. However the main priority RIGHT NOW!!!!! is surviving the war in a good enough condition that we can actually get to that currently nebulous future.
If we went for 4x type 2 impulse engines and multiple standard torpedeo launchers. It is possible that after the war we refit with only 2x type 3 impulse engines and 1 or 2 rapid fire torpedo launchers. The space this then clears up could be put towards all those lovely SCIENCE!! labs we love so much. However the main priority RIGHT NOW!!!!! is surviving the war in a good enough condition that we can actually get to that currently nebulous future.
I personally dislike the idea of a "fail state". It really feels like a pointless ramping up of the stakes. I was personally having a lot more fun designing ships without the current temporal drama hanging over our heads like the sword of Damocles.
I'll grit my teeth and deal with it, but it's still annoying to me.
I'll grit my teeth and deal with it, but it's still annoying to me.
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Weapon can't be charged in cloak. You absolutely can, if you're on the ball, it's just hella hard. And peak maneuverability is how you do it.
It's stated in the retrospective, so unless anything contradicts it (and the dates fit nicely into the new war timeline in a way that seems deliberate), I think we should presume it as canon. The refit-Kea is also not really significantly worse at coping with a marauding D7 than any other Warp 7 Starfleet will have, and fundamentally the Federation needs hulls to defend its space.
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
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The advantage of the thin saucer is that it's got more freedom for impulse configuration, and possibly(?) (there's a post by Sayle stating that it's a fluff statement) gets cheaper shields. The half saucer actually has more internal space to use on systems than the thin saucer (though obviously less than the full), as its impulse is externally mounted- it just locks us into either 2 or 4 engines, which could mean wasted power/cost depending upon what other choices we make.
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[X] 140 Meter Half-Saucer (140,000 Tons)
Voting against "Canon with a paintjob", also this is the worst possible time to be making a Connie. We were explicitly told to make a warship. We were not told to make a workhorse that can go and do the Kirk thing. Next vote we can make the Connie and do it right.
Edit: Next vote I want to be debating if we want a fat medbay or a shiny scilab, not "Can we afford more shooty gunz?" like we are in this vote.
Voting against "Canon with a paintjob", also this is the worst possible time to be making a Connie. We were explicitly told to make a warship. We were not told to make a workhorse that can go and do the Kirk thing. Next vote we can make the Connie and do it right.
Edit: Next vote I want to be debating if we want a fat medbay or a shiny scilab, not "Can we afford more shooty gunz?" like we are in this vote.
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Horologer
Incertae sedis
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- a risen sea
I don't think you're reading my posts very carefully. The entire point is that if we stay under 180K tons, which I want to do, we can keep maximum maneuverability with either two Type-3s or three Type-2s.Oh, well, in that case you have correctly understood everything and are in fact voting for the thing that will get you what you want.
I (and probably ninety percent of the thread) think you're wrong- you're literally the first person to say anything about not wanting to go for max maneuverability- but it's certainly an opinion you could hold, theoretically, I suppose
Has Sayle actually stated that the half-saucer has more internal space? I don't see anything indicating that's the case.