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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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[] Plan We Have a Fulcrum, Let's Make a Lever
-[] Render Aid: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Roll for usefulness, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Gain reputation and +2 bonus per action to Recruitment Dice. You formed these Hearthguard to combat all the ills that befall the dwarfen people. Send them out, render aid, earn goodwill and spread the word of your retainers and their stated mission beyond the borders of Kraka Drakk.
--[] The Throng is Mustered: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Gain Bonus to Throng Rolls against Fimir, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Chance for Casualties/Fatalities. The King of Kraka Drakk calls the Throng to war, lend the might of your Retainers to his cause. You have no real clue as to how developed the Fimir presence is, but given the corpse Rudil dragged back you have a feeling they've been here a while. 1 Retainer Action.
--[] Scouting: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Gain minor bonus to Waystone rolls. Can be taken multiple times. Roll for usefulness, additional actions apply bonus to roll. 1 Retainer Action.
--[] Waywarding: [Cost: 1 action or retainer action] Gain bonus to Waystone rolls and update on status of Waystones. Can be taken multiple times. 1 Retainer Action.
-[] [Difficult] Write In, Skarrenbakraz, Banner-Cloak Pt. 1: [Cost: 1 action] If a rune you want requires special ingredients that you don't have access to I will alert you. Apply optional Rune Ingredients here. A deep black-grey length of supple and iron tough Dragon Ogre Shaggoth hide, treated to get rid of that abominable static, and dyed a deep and familiar red like a sunset forms the basis for this long hooded cloak. The hide descends from three larger plates of Adamant, designed to fit to the back of a Dwarfen gorget and shoulder pauldrons so keenly their edges seem to blend together into a beautiful whole, and about its edges are donated Brana feathers that compliment the colors. Upon the plates are carved the stormy sky of the King of the Sky's domain and nestled within those glowering anvil clouds are three great Runes, with the Master Rune of Grungni taking pride of place on the middle plate. Atop the hide of the cloak and woven into it are Adamant scales the size of a thumb with various gems of Kraka Drakk as highlights, a testament to the workman's craftsmanship and sheer strength. Upon these scales are carved images of the people of Kraka Drakk, and as the cloak moves they seem to move as well as they go about their lives, and a trick of keen carving makes the cloak shimmer like it is sparking with lightning that highlights these dwarfs. 1 action pt 1, 3 Actions pt 2, Use Barak Azamar, Zharrgal, and the Anvil of the Earth.
--[] Choose: Master Rune of Grungni (Oathgold), Rune of Lightning (Kholek's Brain), Rune of Fury (Sky King's Crest Feather)
-[] ORDER: White Lion corpse

So the idea with this plan is to send one third of the Retainers with the Throng to get things sorted out with the Fimir via our elite support, then two actions into getting status updates and protecting the waystones. I am considering putting Scouting in because we don't know about the full numbers of waystones out west and we need to know that to protect them. Will marching with the Throng give us more information in that direction @soulcake, learning more about the waystones out west? It doesn't need to, I just want to clarify what it does in that respect.

Outside of retainer stuff, this builds Skarrenbakraz as has been discussed.

Hey @BungieONI will it be +5 to the Retainer Throng roll with two actions, or something else? Because I'm not sure a mere +5 is worth a whole extra roll for the Waystones via the other Waystone-option.
Waywarding got +35 on waystone rolls as I understand it? Let me double check.

E: No that was West, Go West, bonus to the Expedition roll.

@soulcake, how big of a bonus does one/two/three actions in Waywarding give to Waystone rolls?
 
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The Iron Arm and the Steelshanks didn't combo so... I'm not that surprised. Rik Hunken didn't get anything even though it did combo and we don't really know why, possibly because there was nothing particularly relevant there.
Tbf as I understand it the 'powered by Deep Magic' clause when we create something now doesn't mean the item can do anything extra, it just makes it so the runes remain empowered past the time where other items might run out.
 
Are we gonna wait 1,000 years then, just to get the right Troll Heart? I think the storm of magic massively outweighs the difference between a Tier 3 and Tier 4 item.
Pffth, nah, next storm of magic will take at most the same amount of time the Quest has been running for. I think normal dwarf lifespan is 400-600 years, and in humans, generations are generally seen as meaning 20 years, which is roughly fourth of the life span. I predict another storm of magic sometime in 15-30 turns.

Even that is a pessimistic prediction, as by Karl Franz's times, Storms of Magic are about once a century deals, and he doesn't happen to live relatively close to Chaos Wastes.

Until then, we have time to stockpile materials actually needed to craft everything about the Gronti and its panoply, and if we are lucky, even get a T5 heart ingredient.
 
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Tbf as I understand it the 'powered by Deep Magic' clause when we create something now doesn't mean the item can do anything extra, it just makes it so the runes remain empowered past the time where other items might run out.
That clause comes from BA in ultimate origin, and Zharrgal got something extra out of it (a clone of that ability, and an improvement on its ability to improve runes) so its definitely possible for things to get extra effects.
 
The Iron Arm and the Steelshanks didn't combo so... I'm not that surprised. Rik Hunken didn't get anything even though it did combo and we don't really know why, possibly because there was nothing particularly relevant there.

I don't want to swap the Winds out though? I want deep magic added to the mix, at the very least as something the Runes of Skarrenbakraz draw on. If it doesn't do anything beyond that that'd be sad but oh well, I tried. Skarrenbakraz empowering Zharrgal is because Skarrenbakraz as designed is going to have stupendous amounts of the Winds of Magic inside it to fuel Zharrgal. And because it connects to the Deep Magic as an item by itself, that connection forged by Snorri using Zharrgal can feed back into Zharrgal as another source of Deep Magic energy. In terms of places where the Deep Magic could provide a useful secondary effect, I think arises in the Master Rune of Grungni and the storm process providing protection as a whole. The storms were a part of the primordial world, part of the process which shaped it, and I'm imagining something that thickens or strengthens that protection because of the extra energy source.

E: Or given what it does to Zharrgal's forging stuff, the raw power of the lightning strikes could also be improved.
Just to clarify because I thought jreengus just mispoke but now I'm less sure.
Everyone is aware that Zharrgral does not give a Deep Magic trait right? It says it draws more from magic in its totality, but its BA that gives the trait and only when the used in conjunction and BA is used in the creation of the item.
And we didn't specify to use BA when making any of those items. So of course they wouldn't have a trait.
Article:
-[X] [Difficult] Triage Pt. 2: [Cost: 2 action]. Productivity Like No Other will proc. Apply optional structural materials and any aesthetic changes here. Due end of Turn 37. Gain 80 Favour with Kraka Drakk and 1 Standing and 80 Favour +??? with Karak Ungor. Three limbs to be made, three items to craft. 2 Actions.
--[X] Arm: Master Rune of Waking [T4 Troll Heart], Rune of Forged Limb, Rune of Stone, use Adamant. Bands detailing history of Clan with Hearthstone in shoulder.
--[X] Leg: Rune of Forged Limb, Rune of Vitality [on Hearthstone], Rune of Fortitude [on Hearthstone]
--[X] Leg: Rune of Forged Limb, Rune of the Valiant, Rune of Warding [on Hearthstone]
-[X] [Difficult] A Princely Wedding Gift Pt.1: [Cost: 1 action] Due end of Turn 36. If a rune you want requires special ingredients that you don't have access to I will alert you. Apply optional Rune Ingredients here. Gain 100 Favour with Kraka Ravnsvake. A talisman belt, the band is Elder Shard Wyrm Hide with plates of Pure Gromril carved with images of life in Kraka Drakk, of her craftsmen and teachers and King, and the center three plates of the buckle are Adamant, made from one bar, and contain the runes of power. The Pure Gromril plates are studded with Hearthstones and Dronril and images of Azrilwutroth and Dronwut are prominent in the imagery of the plates. 1 Action.
--[X] Choose: Master Rune of Wandering, Rune of Impact [T3 Stonehorn Horns], Rune of Grimnir. Apply any suitable upgrades to the Rune of Grimnir.
 
Just to clarify because I thought jreengus just mispoke but now I'm less sure.
Everyone is aware that Zharrgral does not give a Deep Magic trait right? It says it draws more from magic in its totality, but its BA that gives the trait and only when the used in conjunction.
And we didn't specify to use BA when making any of those items. So of course they wouldn't have a trait.
Article:
-[X] [Difficult] Triage Pt. 2: [Cost: 2 action]. Productivity Like No Other will proc. Apply optional structural materials and any aesthetic changes here. Due end of Turn 37. Gain 80 Favour with Kraka Drakk and 1 Standing and 80 Favour +??? with Karak Ungor. Three limbs to be made, three items to craft. 2 Actions.
--[X] Arm: Master Rune of Waking [T4 Troll Heart], Rune of Forged Limb, Rune of Stone, use Adamant. Bands detailing history of Clan with Hearthstone in shoulder.
--[X] Leg: Rune of Forged Limb, Rune of Vitality [on Hearthstone], Rune of Fortitude [on Hearthstone]
--[X] Leg: Rune of Forged Limb, Rune of the Valiant, Rune of Warding [on Hearthstone]
-[X] [Difficult] A Princely Wedding Gift Pt.1: [Cost: 1 action] Due end of Turn 36. If a rune you want requires special ingredients that you don't have access to I will alert you. Apply optional Rune Ingredients here. Gain 100 Favour with Kraka Ravnsvake. A talisman belt, the band is Elder Shard Wyrm Hide with plates of Pure Gromril carved with images of life in Kraka Drakk, of her craftsmen and teachers and King, and the center three plates of the buckle are Adamant, made from one bar, and contain the runes of power. The Pure Gromril plates are studded with Hearthstones and Dronril and images of Azrilwutroth and Dronwut are prominent in the imagery of the plates. 1 Action.
--[X] Choose: Master Rune of Wandering, Rune of Impact [T3 Stonehorn Horns], Rune of Grimnir. Apply any suitable upgrades to the Rune of Grimnir.
Its just kind of just assumed we wear BA at this point as Jreengus and I understand it, and 'the totality of magic' would necessarily need to include Deep Magic.
 
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Its just kind of just assumed we wear BA at this point as Jreengus and I understand it, and 'the totality of magic' would necessarily need to include Deep Magic.
Yeah but the amount wouldn't nessacarily be worth a trait. Like it also boosts maintenance, but since I'm pretty sure maintenance and rune recharge rates are only considered for how quickly the adamant smelters work I wouldn't''t really expect a trait representing that.
 
Pffth, nah, next storm of magic will take at most the same amount of time the Quest has been running for. I think normal dwarf lifespan is 400-600 years, and in humans, generations are generally seen as meaning 20 years, which is roughly fourth of the life span. I predict another storm of magic sometime in 15-30 turns.

Even that is a pessimistic prediction, as by Karl Franz's times, Storms of Magic are about once a century deals, and he doesn't happen to live relatively close to Chaos Wastes.

Until then, we have time to stockpile materials actually needed to craft everything about the Gronti and its panoply, and if we are lucky, even get a T5 heart ingredient.
This ignores the potential consequences of a Runelord creating a Mythic tier artifact at said Fulcrum.

Because if anything can drain an active Fulcrum so much that it gets damaged, that would probably be it.
 
Personally I am in favor of building the Grimnir Gronti, partially because it would be epic and partially because it will be something that can act independently from Snorri himself.

Because that is the thing, Snorri is already an unstoppable force on the battlefield but we my our very nature spend a lot of time in our workshop building things. The Gronti will be something that can be involved in every single war and every single battle.
Yep, this kind of thing is one of the main reasons that people really don't want to use up T5 ingrediants on Snorri himself. Seriously, Snorri spends the vast majority of his time on research or making stuff. A T5 is pretty much wasted on a person that barely makes use of that kind of gear compared to people that are constantly out there fighting the enemies of Dwarven kind. Of course problem is that people are really stingy of giving away the absolute best stuff to other people even if they would actually be using it way more than Snorri. At least with something like a Gronit it can actually act independently and get shit done while Snorri works most of the time.

And as a reminder we don't need T5 mats to make epic gear for Snorri.
 
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We don't even know what the brain of Kholek does, and people want to use it to empower a regular rune. Not even a Master Rune, or a rune that Snorri has personally researched and upgraded. A regular, big standard rune. Really?

This is something that might well be ideal for something really special, like the Master Rune of Kingship…
 
We don't even know what the brain of Kholek does, and people want to use it to empower a regular rune. Not even a Master Rune, or a rune that Snorri has personally researched and upgraded. A regular, big standard rune. Really?

This is something that might well be ideal for something really special, like the Master Rune of Kingship…
We've already heard that argument.
 
We don't even know what the brain of Kholek does, and people want to use it to empower a regular rune. Not even a Master Rune, or a rune that Snorri has personally researched and upgraded. A regular, big standard rune. Really?

This is something that might well be ideal for something really special, like the Master Rune of Kingship…
A regular bog standard rune is actually much safer to experiment with than a Master Rune, so uh, obviously yes. We don't need to use T5s on super special runes when we make something with a T5.
 
Because if anything can drain an active Fulcrum so much that it gets damaged, that would probably be it.
From a Doylist perspective, Soulcake just gave us access to an Arcane fulcrum which only activates during Storms of Chaos. He already has a way to control access to it narratively, so destroying it after we use it once doesn't make much sense.
 
A regular bog standard rune is actually much safer to experiment with than a Master Rune, so uh, obviously yes. We don't need to use T5s on super special runes when we make something with a T5.

Given that reagents are used to direct the effects of a rune in a particular way, do we even know that can a regular rune benefits from very high tier reagents, or can they overflow, producing the same effect as a lesser reagent of the same type would in terms of specifying how the rune should express its limited power?
 
A thought just struck me.

@soulcake For all that Runelords make their projects on their own, given the rather unique circumstances and situation, could we make the Grimnir Gronti in collaboration with Yorri? We bring the materials and he the additional knowledge/runes on Gronti?

For all that runesmiths are all "hush, hush, secret, secret, worthy? worthy? private, private." I doubt that there will be enough time for two doughy-boys to make stuff and I can't see Yorri not being interested in the current happenings.
 
I think the earlier consensus was that while Kholek "led", he was a brute that ruled purely through force and only acted to destroy stuff. So not something that really fits ideal dwarven rulership.

Citation? Particularly given Grimnir is one of the two aspects of dwarven ruler ship, and he's specifically a warrior.

Also, the description of the brain is about, essentially, immortal, ineffable knowledge, which lines up perfectly with the Master Rune of Kingship. Look at the description:

[Tier 5] The Suneater's Brain x1: The dead mind of one who saw the pact of the foulest kind be struck between primordial beast and dread thing beyond the veil of reality. The conscious and the evil has left, but the brain matter is potent regardless.​

Does that scream 'use to make Lightning' to you?
 
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This is something that might well be ideal for something really special, like the Master Rune of Kingship…

As stated before, Kholek was no king; he was a warlord, a destroyer, a despoiler. No realm did he craft, no civilization did he raise. All he did well was throw lightning, smash shit, and form dark pacts with the Chaos Gods. None of which strikes me as kingly.

Grimnir is one of three aspects, really. The others being Valaya and Grungni. And man is Kholek lacking in their qualities of rulership.
 
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@soulcake For all that Runelords make their projects on their own, given the rather unique circumstances and situation, could we make the Grimnir Gronti in collaboration with Yorri? We bring the materials and he the additional knowledge/runes on Gronti?
We already know as much about Gronti from mechanical perspective as he does.
 
Two plans here, one to make a MAmplfication based amulet that does not use Kholek's brain and the other to make the Grimnir Gronti

[] Plan We Have a Fulcrum, Let's Make a Magic Killer Amulet.
-[] Render Aid: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Roll for usefulness, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Gain reputation and +2 bonus per action to Recruitment Dice. You formed these Hearthguard to combat all the ills that befall the dwarfen people. Send them out, render aid, earn goodwill and spread the word of your retainers and their stated mission beyond the borders of Kraka Drakk.
--[] The Throng is Mustered: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Gain Bonus to Throng Rolls against Fimir, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Chance for Casualties/Fatalities. The King of Kraka Drakk calls the Throng to war, lend the might of your Retainers to his cause. You have no real clue as to how developed the Fimir presence is, but given the corpse Rudil dragged back you have a feeling they've been here a while. 2 Retainer Action.
--[] Waywarding: [Cost: 1 action or retainer action] Gain bonus to Waystone rolls and update on status of Waystones. Can be taken multiple times. 1 Retainer Action.
-[] [Difficult] Write In, (name tbd) MAmplification Amulet, Talisman Pt. 1: [Cost: 1 action] If a rune you want requires special ingredients that you don't have access to I will alert you. Apply optional Rune Ingredients here. 1 action pt 1, 3 Actions pt 2, Use Barak Azamar, Zharrgal, and the Anvil of the Earth.
--[] Choose: MSnerra/Amplification (adamant), sanctuary, stone (voidstone), use best available materials for sanctuary/stone available to Snorri
-[ ] ORDER: T4 Carnosaur Heart

[] Plan We Have a Fulcrum, Let's Make the Grimnir Gronti.
-[] Render Aid: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Roll for usefulness, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Gain reputation and +2 bonus per action to Recruitment Dice. You formed these Hearthguard to combat all the ills that befall the dwarfen people. Send them out, render aid, earn goodwill and spread the word of your retainers and their stated mission beyond the borders of Kraka Drakk.
--[] The Throng is Mustered: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Gain Bonus to Throng Rolls against Fimir, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Chance for Casualties/Fatalities. The King of Kraka Drakk calls the Throng to war, lend the might of your Retainers to his cause. You have no real clue as to how developed the Fimir presence is, but given the corpse Rudil dragged back you have a feeling they've been here a while. 1 Retainer Action.
--[] Waywarding: [Cost: 1 action or retainer action] Gain bonus to Waystone rolls and update on status of Waystones. Can be taken multiple times. 1 Retainer Action.
--
[ ] Dreng Them: [Cost: 1 retainer action] 1 Retainer action. Find a t4 troll heart or other t4 material that works for MWaking.
-[] [ ] [Difficult] Write in, The Valiant Ancestor Golem Pt. 1: [Cost: 1 action] If a rune you want requires special ingredients that you don't have access to I will alert you. Apply optional Rune Ingredients here. Since returning from the campaign you've been reflecting on Grimnir and how he fought, twin axes flashing. And now, He is gone. Grimnir's departure will be forever seared into the hearts and minds of the Karaz Ankor, of that you have no doubt. But what about His life? Unlike most, you are one of the honored few to have met Him in person, to have spoken with Him. You shall make a Gronti to remind the world and all future generations of His deeds, of His glorious life. The size of a Bloodthirster, a living altar of Pure Adamant, eternally guarding the Everlasting Realm.. Apply optional Rune Ingredients here. 1 action pt 1, 3 Actions pt 2, Use Barak Azamar, Zharrgal, and the Anvil of the Earth.
--[] Theme:
A gronti that embodies the life of Grimnir as best as Snorri understands it. Use the best materials available to Snorri for every part of the construction.
-[ ] Princely Hunting: [Cost: 10 Favour from Kraka Drakk] Prince Gimli will go out and slay [Write-in] monster. Tell Gimli to go get us the best troll heart (t4) he can find. Impress upon him the importance of what we need.
-[ ] ORDER: T4 Carnosaur Heart
 
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As stated before, Kholek was no king; he was a warlord, a destroyer, a despoiler. No realm did he craft, no civilization did he raise. All he did well was throw lightning, smash shit, and form dark pacts with the Chaos Gods. None of which strikes me as kingly.

Read the description of his brain. It's about striking a pact with gods. It's not about destruction or throwing lightning. It specifically says that the evil has left it.

And Kholek was a leader of the dragon ogres and chaotic forces. He did bring a massive army with him. He was an enemy, but he was capable of assembling and leading a host of the damned. And someone made his gear. Given his scale, he may have crafted it himself. It was almost certainly a dragon ogre under his command who did if it wasn't him.
 
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@soulcake, how big of a bonus does one/two/three actions in Waywarding give to Waystone rolls?
just plus 5
@soulcake For all that Runelords make their projects on their own, given the rather unique circumstances and situation, could we make the Grimnir Gronti in collaboration with Yorri? We bring the materials and he the additional knowledge/runes on Gronti?
That just sounds like a commission with extra steps. Also no, Yorri isn't gonna make you a Gronti even if you feed him 36 bars of Adamant. That and Dwarfen pride.

You have to make the Gronti folks, not foist it off to Yorri where you're technically inputting actions but hoping he uses his good Runes for you. Though I will admit your constant questing for the *perfect* time is certainly... a trip.
 
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