Speaking of soul ring inscriptions, we should mention that Sabrina can read Witch Runes. That should lend some more credence to the theory that we have something to do with a Witch.
Maybe. But the consensus in-universe may be that they're generically magical runes - particularly since they do appear on soul gem rings, which, to most people's knowledge, don't have anything to do with witches. While Riona may well know better, she may still not think of them as being anything particularly specific to the "witch" state.

For that matter, do we know for sure that magical girls can't decode runes? If they are literally a substitution cipher for the Latin alphabet, the names on soul gems form a more than substantial enough corpus for them to have figured it out. As for guessing that it's that in the first place, it'd almost be harder not to notice that the patterns in names with repeated letters, such as "Sayaka" or "Kyoko" match.

(If it's not literally true, then that makes Sabrina's ability to read them more interesting - to us, let alone to other in-universe magical girls.
 
Maybe. But the consensus in-universe may be that they're generically magical runes - particularly since they do appear on soul gem rings, which, to most people's knowledge, don't have anything to do with witches. While Riona may well know better, she may still not think of them as being anything particularly specific to the "witch" state.

For that matter, do we know for sure that magical girls can't decode runes? If they are literally a substitution cipher for the Latin alphabet, the names on soul gems form a more than substantial enough corpus for them to have figured it out. As for guessing that it's that in the first place, it'd almost be harder not to notice that the patterns in names with repeated letters, such as "Sayaka" or "Kyoko" match.

(If it's not literally true, then that makes Sabrina's ability to read them more interesting - to us, let alone to other in-universe magical girls.
Now we get into the question, are the runes there in-universe, or only on the screen for the audience to see? :thonk:
 
Neither does being created by a wish. Madoka "obviously" didn't make that wish since she's not a magical girl. You need to know about Homura's power, her relationship with Madoka, and Madoka's potential before you can even select Madoka specifically as a hypothesis.
I'm worried Riona might be able to see Madoka's potential, with her abilities, and connect dots. Though I guess that's a concern either way.

AFAIK, Mami can sense Madoka's potential in canon, but even KB can't tell just how big that potential is. Riona having Soul abilities, may be able to better gauge Madoka's power?

(Flashback, I think we've had a discussion about how we sensed Madoka? IIRC, we sense her just barely, like any other potential... which doesn't mean much, just that we can't quite gauge potential with our grief sense. :p )
 
As far as our theories go, I think there's two tracks to look into here, both of which can be brought up immediately, without necessarily invoking anything else:

One is that people who are outside the universe have infinite potential. Which ties into our soul having absolutely no connection to anything. The second is WPN/UKG theory, both of which can be looked at via whether our soul is a conglomerate.


I prefer using Kaizuki's vote as a base here, since it's better structured to get straight to the point, and I think Rion(n)a would appreciate that.

------

[X] She knows everything about souls and where witches come from, yes?
-[X] Check Riona's Witch's name.

[X] Your first guess is that you might have been made from a witch, A conglomerate like Walpurgisnacht. Failing that that, that you might have been made from whole cloth.
-[X]Ask if your soul looks at all similar to a conglomerate witch. Even if an absurdly large one.
-[X] Give evidence: no history, sudden appearance, ability to read runes, the fact that your soul gem has your witch's name, strange knowledge. Omit any mention of personal knowledge (Mami, Homura, etc) but note both general knowledge & specifics of Puella Magi system. Information on multiple timelines, Madokami, and Madoka's potential should all remain tightly suppressed.

[X] After whatever immediate questions she has...
-[X] Ask her motives and intentions in town: You don't know a ton about her, but as long as she's not interested in mass murder you're more than happy to offer her almost whatever she wants in exchange for contribution.
--[X] If she's in town, she should know Walpurgisnacht is expected to arrive at the end of the month. It's entirely up to her whether she wants to fight it, and we won't ask without making some proper compensation, but she should know it's coming.
--[X] She should also know that we will be attempting to figure out dewitching. Without the whole... nastiness, you've heard come of other attempts. Again, it's up to her whether or not she wants to help, but you figured she'd at least want to know.

EDIT: Pared down ending section.
 
Last edited:
I'm worried Riona might be able to see Madoka's potential, with her abilities, and connect dots. Though I guess that's a concern either way.
Connect the dots and figure out that the uncontracted potential made a wish? No, if anything this draws away from Madoka, and even if she does see Madoka's huge potential and decide there's a connection, it doesn't give her any reason to act differently then Madoka's potential on its own would.
 
So nowhere near a consensus yet. Hm.

Honestly, I like how voting works in PMAS.
Enough time to talk it out and settle the differences, if at all possible.
Too many quests I'm binging seem to be suffering from their fast update rates in the past, because a few times a situation arised when too few people with too little time formed a consensus better summed up as "lol, this is going to hurt like a motherhugger".
Not at all sure it's relevant, so it means it's time to have some sleep.
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Jul 26, 2018 at 5:21 AM, finished with 141459 posts and 26 votes.

  • [X] Keep in contact with Mami, with Grief.
    -[X] (Comfort and precautionary measure).
    [X] Be efficient.
    -[X] Shrug off rudeness, prioritize business over politeness, be blunt.
    [X] Explain Mami's choice to remain ignorant of facts that terrify many Magical Girls.
    -[X] Check Riona's Witch's name.
    -[X] Check Riona's bombed status.
    --[X] As a formality, to maintain good habits. Be brief and direct, don't insult her with attributed ignorance.
    --[X] If she somehow doesn't know the bombs, break to voting.
    [X] Information sharing:
    -[X] Waking up half-dead; amnesia; knowledge: random (languages, skills) and about the system.
    -[X] KB's comment about karma level and experiences.
    --[X] Check Riona's opinion of KB.
    [X] Figure how far to trust Riona.
    -[X] Ask after her motives.
    --[X] (Mental note: She flew halfway across the world based on rumours?)
    -[X] Ask what she sees in you (with her powers).
    [X] Cut to voting.
    [X] She knows where witches come from and that the soul gem is the soul, yes?
    [X] Explain your belief that you are a product of a wish. Omit any suspicion of whose wish in particular -- multiple timelines, Madokami, and Madoka's potential should all remain tightly suppressed.
    -[X] Give evidence: no history, sudden appearance, strange knowledge. Omit any mention of personal knowledge (Mami, Homura, etc) but note both general knowledge & specifics of Puella Magi system.
    [X] After whatever immediate questions she has...
    -[X] Drop a summary of current problems on her.
    --[X] Kyubey is eventually going to try to get us killed.
    --[X] There's at least one malignant weirdness around, you don't know much about it except that it's tried to kill at least one person and is screwing with some magics. (Feathers)
    --[X] One of our allies is rejecting her wish and her soul is all kinds of fucked up.
    --[X] Walpurgisnacht arrives Apr. 30, because why not. Arguably the least of our problems, it's "just" a witch.
    [X] You don't know a ton about her, but as long as she's not interested in mass murder you're more than happy to offer her almost whatever she wants in exchange for contribution.
    -[X] You have a system to break, after all.
    [X] She knows everything about souls and where witches come from, yes?
    -[X] Check Riona's Witch's name.
    [X] Your first guess is that you might have been made from a witch, A conglomerate like Walpurgisnacht. Failing that that, that you might have been made from whole cloth.
    -[X]Ask if your soul looks at all similar to a conglomerate witch. Even if an absurdly large one.
    -[X] Give evidence: no history, sudden appearance, ability to read runes, the fact that your soul gem has your witch's name, strange knowledge. Omit any mention of personal knowledge (Mami, Homura, etc) but note both general knowledge & specifics of Puella Magi system. Information on multiple timelines, Madokami, and Madoka's potential should all remain tightly suppressed.
    [X] After whatever immediate questions she has...
    -[X] Ask her motives and intentions in town: You don't know a ton about her, but as long as she's not interested in mass murder you're more than happy to offer her almost whatever she wants in exchange for contribution.
    --[X] If she's in town, she should know Walpurgisnacht is expected to arrive at the end of the month. It's entirely up to her whether she wants to fight it, and we won't ask without making some proper compensation, but she should know it's coming.
    --[X] She should also know that we will be attempting to figure out dewitching. Without the whole... nastiness, you've heard come of other attempts. Again, it's up to her whether or not she wants to help, but you figured she'd at least want to know.
    [X] I think I'm the result of a Wish. Specifically, some girl wished for something like me, and that just kind of...spontaneously created me. I woke up in an alleyway vomiting blood, no memory of myself other than the name Sabrina, and full knowledge of the Magical Girl system. Then I wished to control Grief. So, in a way, it was like two wishes in one, specifically for this power.
    -[X] I'm not sure if I was originally human, or if I was a Witch turned into a human through a Wish, or whatever. There are no records of my existence before I woke up in that alleyway, and, as you can imagine, a foreigner with white hair, violet eyes, above-average height, no ID or belongings, total amnesia, and no one even trying to look for her doesn't seem to be a natural occurrence in Japan.
    -[X] What can you tell me about my soul? I only know that power copiers can't copy my power.
    [X] Explain your inference that your wish was more important than your past, and you traded it away somehow.
    -[X]The spirit of the wish was to help everyone, and as we are now, we will.
    -[X] full amnesia regarding identity, suspect that this applies to the outside world as well.
    -[X] please describe our soul in detail?
    [X] we have a reason to want her here
    -[X] what is her reason to seek us?
    -[X] can we work together?
    [X] Kyuubey talk
    -[X] When di' you first meet it?
    -[X] What does it want Rionna to do?
    [X] witchbomb status / protect innocents
    -[X] why we infosec, and what we expect.
    [X] discuss powers, read her witch name, clear seed talk
    [X] return to Mami
    [X] telepathy Niko
    [X] Ask how late she wants to talk tonight
    [X] Our local history
    [X] her history
    [X] We have people to gather, that want to meet her.
    [X] write out a few bilingual notes for her to use with the hotel staff
    -[X] and a written address for her to meet us at
    -[X] and imply that she could use the hotel's business card to communicate her return destination in a taxi.
 
So nowhere near a consensus yet. Hm.
We got time...

I prefer using Kaizuki's vote as a base here, since it's better structured to get straight to the point, and I think Rion(n)a would appreciate that.
I do believe Rionnnnna might appreciate it, but... wow, I feel it's too much throwing caution to the wind, and then trying to dump literally everything* on Riona in one update.

*Or as close as possible.

I have hopes Riona will turn out to be good, but she's still one in many, many gucas Sabrina will meet in her life. If we figure it's OK to babble about possibly being a Witch first thing, first possibility when a stranger ask, I kind of fear for Sabrina's future.

And what's with just dumping all the problems on Riona? Being straight and to the point is one thing, but this reads like we want to be done and get rid of Riona ASAP so we can go get mumihugs, or something.

I'd like to slow down a bit, do things in order. We always knew we could trust the canon crew, and that helped us with them, and it would help us get closer to Riona if we start by showing a lot of trust, but we don't actually know she's trustworthy. That's kind of a thing people are supposed to prod and poke each other about.

In this case, I'd like to give Riona something of an answer (known facts about our origins, nothing dangerous to share), but then she needs to give us a reason to trust her, before we tell her anything further than that.

If that sounds like it would bother Riona, we can make it explicit, which I guess is what I'm trying to do, with asking for her motives regarding her taking a trip halfway across the world on a dime and rumour.
 
And what's with just dumping all the problems on Riona? Being straight and to the point is one thing, but this reads like we want to be done and get rid of Riona ASAP so we can go get mumihugs, or something.
Yeah, adding my own stuff to the copy from Kaizuki, did get a little bloated. I've made an edit to the above post and pared it down to the pertinent stuff.

As far as trust goes, I've inclined your stuff about her motives, and just made that a bit more explicit, but I'm not sure what other concrete ways there are to gauge that.
 
Honestly, I like how voting works in PMAS.
Enough time to talk it out and settle the differences, if at all possible.
Too many quests I'm binging seem to be suffering from their fast update rates in the past, because a few times a situation arised when too few people with too little time formed a consensus better summed up as "lol, this is going to hurt like a motherhugger".
Not at all sure it's relevant, so it means it's time to have some sleep.
Well, we have had rushed votes when PMAS updated around once a day, votes that didn't go so well. Many "oh we should have done X instead but it's too late now".

The slower update rate now does help us catch things like that, sometimes.

Yeah, adding my own stuff to the copy from Kaizuki, did get a little bloated. I've made an edit to the above post and pared it down to the pertinent stuff.

As far as trust goes, I've inclined your stuff about her motives, and just made that a bit more explicit, but I'm not sure what other concrete ways there are to gauge that.
I think it's really about finding whether Riona has a plausible reason to really really want our powers that's... good aligned, to put it that way?

Think of it like this:

Random dangerous person walks up to us and asks us what we are.

Nothing of actual importance happens in between, and...

We tell her maybe we're a Witch.

*Leans back*

Wow.

Riona has done literally nothing to earn our trust. At this point, the only reason we have to trust her is that Nadia... didn't say anything about her being mean (I don't think she actually vouched for Riona?).


... By the way, my hold up on claiming (to Riona) that we think we've been created by a Wish, has to do with the fact Riona's interested in this, and that sort of fact can quickly become a breadcrumb, as part of a larger breadcrumb trail.

Without that hypothesis, Riona needs to handle tons of possibilities, anything that comes to her mind. But if we give that hypothesis, we point towards it, we're basically cutting down the amount of possibilities Riona need to consider, substantially.

It's a data point, even if not one we can 100% be sure leads to the right answer.
 
Well obviously, our witch name would be on our Soul Gem, we didn't have a name besides that at the beginning.
In fact, you could say that Delodere is the closest thing we have to a real name.
 
Well obviously, our witch name would be on our Soul Gem, we didn't have a name besides that at the beginning.
In fact, you could say that Delodere is the closest thing we have to a real name.

I mean, Madokami could've come up with a worse name, you know?
Like "Mami's Hug Pillow" or something
So we'd better thank her once we meet up.
 
I mean, Madokami could've come up with a worse name, you know?
Like "Mami's Hug Pillow" or something
So we'd better thank her once we meet up.
No, what I'm saying is that every magical girl has their name on their ring, right?
So obviously, ours would have a name on it too.
But there's just one problem, we didn't have a name.
So our Soul Gem had to improvise and decided that since the only part of our soul that had a name already was the witch part, it would have to do.
 
The rings' have the megucas' names.
...wait, if the rings have the girls' names, then how are we reading their witch names? Is there a second layer that we can read? If so, does that mean that both layers of our ring says "Dedolere"?
Bestgirl Riona just gets more n's added in her name with the time. Soon an entire update will be needed just to get her name down.

Maybe use her weird Celtic surname?
"So, Maggie-"

"Mag Aodh."

"... that's what I said."

"No, you said 'Maggie'. My surname is 'Mag Aodh'."

"Somehow I can hear the voice of this one guy gibbering in despair in my head."

"Yes, I can see him in your soul."
 
No, what I'm saying is that every magical girl has their name on their ring, right?
So obviously, ours would have a name on it too.
But there's just one problem, we didn't have a name.
So our Soul Gem had to improvise and decided that since the only part of our soul that had a name already was the witch part, it would have to do.

Ah. I thought you were going with the theory that, since Madokami is our hypothetical creator, she's also named us. Also, that she's an in-story reason our Witch Name is "Dedolere", i.e. "Grieve No More" ( or a second conjunction of "to sewer, to hew", Iunno, I'm shit at Latin ).
Maybe she thought it will be ironic to give us a name reflecting our nature so much, but then we went and ruined it with the Teenage Witch reference. :V

Nevertheless. I remember Witch Quest and how Homura's Witch name continued to change throughout it, mostly in the range of shortening "Homulily", until one particular moment when her Witch Runes spelled out "MURDERFACE" instead.

So, you know, if our Witch Name changes to "Mumihugs" during, well, Mumihugs, I'll not be all that surprised.
 
I mean, we could just determine if it's true by finding a magical girl who didn't have a name upon her contracting, but I feel that would be very difficult.
 
According to Inu Curry, True Names exist and have some sort of power wherein Witches will refuse to give them, even if they're like Bebe in Rebellion, meaning it's not just a grief-inspired delusion.

Postulate: Birth True Name, like "Madoka Kaname." When you make a contract, your True Name is imprinted on your Ring, but inside your Soul Gem, Sabrina can see your Witch's True Name, "Kriemhild Gretchen." You have two sides to yourself and two True Names, one representing your human existence and one representing your magical existence. When you become a Witch, your human True Name dies, and you are purely Gretchen at this point. Madoka Kaname was the egg shell you broke out of, as symbolized by your Soul Gem.

Sabrina wasn't Sabrina when she contracted. She was just a nameless girl who contracted, and so only had one name, "Dedolere" for her Soul Ring to read. Which is fitting, as putting aside "Bluh bluh grief magic" stuff, we...don't actually really HAVE a 'human existence' before contracting, especially if we're indeed a homunculus born of magic.

Essentially, we ARE a Witch. But unlike most Witches, we're not made out of despair, grief, and malice. We're a Witch born out of one little girl's hope to fix everything, and save everyone, and for all these people to stop despairing. For them to grieve no more.

...wait, if the rings have the girls' names, then how are we reading their witch names? Is there a second layer that we can read? If so, does that mean that both layers of our ring says "Dedolere"?

AuraTwilight already gave it a thought, and I think I agree with him.
 
.wait, if the rings have the girls' names, then how are we reading their witch names? Is there a second layer that we can read? If so, does that mean that both layers of our ring says "Dedolere"?
Yeah, when we've looked at the witch name of someone, it was by looking at the little core of grief deep inside their gem.
There's a deeper, more present feeling in the Gem you don't dare touch.
Candeloro.
 
Riona has done literally nothing to earn our trust. At this point, the only reason we have to trust her is that Nadia... didn't say anything about her being mean (I don't think she actually vouched for Riona?).

I mean, we want things from her, the question is what she wants here. What's the worst possibility? She's, like, actually evil Oriko?

The way she has handled things so far -- the whole showing up and just kind of not bothering with any explanations or details -- at least one of these is the case:

Case 1: she's here purely to bitch at us and try to figure out how/why we have "succeeded where everyone else has failed."
Case 2: she hasn't felt any need to state a purpose because she thinks it's obvious.
Case 3: she hasn't stated a purpose because she's socially clueless.

I'm distinctly in favor of case 2, but I'll admit it's not a sure thing. All the language about "what everyone has been trying to do since forever" really has made me expect she's kind of assuming that given what we can do, we've already succeeded at completely breaking the puella magi system. She's not even completely wrong.

Another thing is, anybody aware of the witchbomb is probably at least semi-trustworthy. You don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg, so to speak. Exceptions for crazy nutjobs -- Iowa, e.g.

All of this makes me inclined to at least half trust her.

Honestly, though, the more I think about this the more inclined I am to revisit my knee-jerk reaction to this situation:

"I am going to be completely honest with you: there are things I'm not going to tell you because if Kyubey got its paws on them, it might be able to kill all of us with them. The fewer people with that sort of stuff in their heads, the better, full stop. We haven't won yet."
 
I mean, we want things from her, the question is what she wants here. What's the worst possibility? She's, like, actually evil Oriko?

The way she has handled things so far -- the whole showing up and just kind of not bothering with any explanations or details -- at least one of these is the case:

Case 1: she's here purely to bitch at us and try to figure out how/why we have "succeeded where everyone else has failed."
Case 2: she hasn't felt any need to state a purpose because she thinks it's obvious.
Case 3: she hasn't stated a purpose because she's socially clueless.

I'm distinctly in favor of case 2, but I'll admit it's not a sure thing. All the language about "what everyone has been trying to do since forever" really has made me expect she's kind of assuming that given what we can do, we've already succeeded at completely breaking the puella magi system. She's not even completely wrong.

Another thing is, anybody aware of the witchbomb is probably at least semi-trustworthy. You don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg, so to speak. Exceptions for crazy nutjobs -- Iowa, e.g.

All of this makes me inclined to at least half trust her.

Honestly, though, the more I think about this the more inclined I am to revisit my knee-jerk reaction to this situation:

"I am going to be completely honest with you: there are things I'm not going to tell you because if Kyubey got its paws on them, it might be able to kill all of us with them. The fewer people with that sort of stuff in their heads, the better, full stop. We haven't won yet."

Honestly, I feel like we're looking at someone somewhat similar to us, but missing a lot of key facts: someone who is exactly as interested in breaking the system, thinks we've succeeded, and is clueless as to the whole "yeah the world could still fucking end within the next month or so" deal.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by DB_Explorer on Jul 23, 2018 at 12:29 AM, finished with 141350 posts and 15 votes.

  • [X] Keep in contact with Mami, with Grief.
    [X] Be efficient.
    -[X] Shrug off rudeness, prioritize business over politeness, be blunt if necessary.
    [X] Explain Mami's choice to remain ignorant of facts that terrify many Magical Girls.
    -[X] Check Riona's Witch's name.
    -[X] Ask Riona to confirm her bombed status.
    [X] Information sharing:
    -[X] Waking up half-dead; amnesia; knowledge, random and about the system.
    -[X] KB's comment about karma level and experiences.
    --[X] Check Riona's opinion of KB.
    [X] Figure how far to trust Riona.
    -[X] Ask after her motives.
    -[X] Ask what she sees in you.
    [X] If she sounds good and honest:
    -[X] Share hypothesis about being created by magic. Wholly, by de-Witching, as part of a larger concept...
    -[X] Share how many times you've had the coincidence of being able to help someone in need, in the nick of time.
    -[X] Explain Witch names, Witch runes, how you can read them, and the name in your Ring.
    [X] She knows where witches come from and that the soul gem is the soul, yes?
    [X] Explain your belief that you are a product of a wish. Omit any suspicion of whose wish in particular -- multiple timelines, Madokami, and Madoka's potential should all remain tightly suppressed.
    -[X] Give evidence: no history, sudden appearance, strange knowledge. Omit any mention of personal knowledge (Mami, Homura, etc) but note both general knowledge & specifics of Puella Magi system.
    [X] After whatever immediate questions she has...
    -[X] Drop a summary of current problems on her.
    --[X] Kyubey is eventually going to try to get us killed.
    --[X] There's at least one malignant weirdness around, you don't know much about it except that it's tried to kill at least one person and is screwing with some magics. (Feathers)
    --[X] One of our allies is rejecting her wish and her soul is all kinds of fucked up.
    --[X] Walpurgisnacht arrives Apr. 30, because why not. Arguably the least of our problems, it's "just" a witch.
    [X] You don't know a ton about her, but as long as she's not interested in mass murder you're more than happy to offer her almost whatever she wants in exchange for contribution.
    -[X] You have a system to break, after all.
    [X] She knows everything about souls and where witches come from, yes?
    -[X] Check Riona's Witch's name.
    [X] Your first guess is that you might have been made from a witch, A conglomerate like Walpurgisnacht. Failing that that, that you might have been made from whole cloth.
    -[X]Ask if your soul looks at all similar to a conglomerate witch. Even if an absurdly large one.
    -[X] Give evidence: no history, sudden appearance, ability to read runes, the fact that your soul gem has your witch's name, strange knowledge. Omit any mention of personal knowledge (Mami, Homura, etc) but note both general knowledge & specifics of Puella Magi system. Information on multiple timelines, Madokami, and Madoka's potential should all remain tightly suppressed.
    [X] After whatever immediate questions she has...
    -[X] Ask her motives and intentions in town: You don't know a ton about her, but as long as she's not interested in mass murder you're more than happy to offer her almost whatever she wants in exchange for contribution.
    --[X] If she's in town, she should know Walpurgisnacht is expected to arrive at the end of the month. It's entirely up to her whether she wants to fight it, and we won't ask without making some proper compensation, but she should know it's coming.
    --[X] She should also know that we will be attempting to figure out dewitching. Without the whole... nastiness, you've heard come of other attempts. Again, it's up to her whether or not she wants to help, but you figured she'd at least want to know.
    [X] I think I'm the result of a Wish. Specifically, some girl wished for something like me, and that just kind of...spontaneously created me. I woke up in an alleyway vomiting blood, no memory of myself other than the name Sabrina, and full knowledge of the Magical Girl system. Then I wished to control Grief. So, in a way, it was like two wishes in one, specifically for this power.
    -[X] I'm not sure if I was originally human, or if I was a Witch turned into a human through a Wish, or whatever. There are no records of my existence before I woke up in that alleyway, and, as you can imagine, a foreigner with white hair, violet eyes, above-average height, no ID or belongings, total amnesia, and no one even trying to look for her doesn't seem to be a natural occurrence in Japan.
    -[X] What can you tell me about my soul? I only know that power copiers can't copy my power.
 
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