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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Kaizuki said:
[X] We have a couple of notable advantages.
-[X] It helps that we can be in two places at once. If she remembers the night where Sayaka ran into Kyouko, that scared the crap out of you when Sayaka left. You would have sent her after Sayaka if you hadn't heard back from blue within the hour.
-[X] But even ignoring that... Her looks and bearing, and your sheer stupid power, get both of you a lot of respect as long as you're not the bad guys. When was the last time Mami took on a senpai role towards her? Sayaka looks up to her -- not entirely, but it's there. Things are different from the last time she tried a loop like this, because she's different. And because of it, people are willing to actually listen to her once they count her as their friend. People are willing to let her intervene when she needs to.
[X] And that's really the biggest thing we have going for us personally. Because we share her ability to provide for the team, her ability to command respect -- but the crucial difference is that we haven't been hurt so damn many times that we can't think to reach out to the people around us.

Dunno completely about this. It's accurate as all hell and should give her context for her "I don't understand how this is working" issue... Which I think would be very good for her.
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Conjured Blade said:
[]You know that picture from Hobbes's Leviathan of a human made of humans?
[]Regardless of what we think on Oriko's current threat level, you're the one that enabled me to get at least some use out of her instead of me having to kill them or still be dealing with them as enemies.
[]Sometimes fate is at your back, and sometimes you're the fate at someone else's back. A state is made of people.
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Same problems as Salty's vote: These don't go deep enough. Homura isn't stupid; she's already grasped all the advantages we have. I think that what she's really asking right now is Why is Madoka's Wish working and Was I wrong the whole time? What we need to be addressing here is Homura's relationship with Madoka. Anything less is stalling for time.
 
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Vebyast said:
I think that all of the talk about the details of how we're doing this are immaterial. Fundamentally speaking, there are two points that we must address here.
  1. It's because of Madoka's Wish.
  2. Homura is currently psychologically incapable of accepting Madoka's help.
Those are the only things we need to focus on. There is no chance that Homura has failed to reach point 1. I'm certain that she's feeling her way toward point 2. We need to beat her to it and help her work through it. Somehow.
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Okay, this reading feels extremely overfocused to me.

My own reading is that Homura being unable to accept Madoka's help is certainly a problem... but it's not the end all be all of what's happening now.

If I had to speak with certainty, I'd say Homura right now is probably a mix of feeling inadequate, and likely worried that she can't repeat her successes without us if we fail and this timeline turns out to be a complete anomaly. We're winning, we're doing this... which also means she can't do it herself on her own.

It's the discussion that came up in discord a while back: If Homura loops now... she has barely anything to take forwards out of this loop. We have answers, but none she can use. We fuck up and she's still trapped in her maze, just starting over again and again without being able to truly accrue new progress.

Which brings it back to reasons to talk about PSP and Homura's revenge:

Basic benefit on talking about non-canonical timelines: Shows that we've learned from Homura, allows us to talk about extra solutions that could truly change the game for her.
Basic con: Could make Homura inquire too greedily and too deeply.
 
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[x] Kaizuki

For now, but I suspect tweaking will continue.

Also I agree with basically everything @The Phoenixian has been saying, pretty consistently. So, if that lends any weight or support.
 
The Phoenixian said:
If I had to speak with certainty, I'd say Homura right now is probably a mix of feeling inadequate, and likely worried that she can't repeat her successes without us if we fail and this timeline turns out to be a complete anomaly. We won, we did this... which also means she can't do it herself on her own.
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It feels overfocused because I'm digging past all of the cruft to get at the root cause. Homura's insecurity stems from her conclusion that she must do everything herself, which is rooted in Madoka's final request in the third loop. Her lack of progress is because she's reached the peak of her abilities and needs to accept help to get further, which reduces to the same chain. We can't simply explain that it's Madoka's Wish, because that would imply that the Right Way Forward was to let Madoka try to help, which Homura can't do because of the final request from the third loop. It all comes back to that promise. And since it all gets there eventually, that's where we need to be focusing our attention. We can dress it up, go through whatever points we want to make in the meantime, but ultimately speaking that is what we need to do right now.
 
These are my thoughts, after I read the update:

Homura's just one person, but she has endured more than many others could have.
We can control grief, that's cheating. If Homura had something like that, she coulda been able to save our friends on her own.
We're here thanks to the fact Homura never gave up and Madoka's wish. We want to fix everything because we care, but that means we care about her too, we don't want her to think everything she went through was in vain, beause it wasn't.
We still need her help and guideance to compensate for our failings (and Mami's and Sayaka's too), we've done so good this far thank's to her, and not only because of her powers, she's more experienced than us and knows many things that we don't, probably there will be always matters in which we'll trust her judgement more than ours, but that's not it either, what has help us get this far is her friendship.

Edit: Besides, most magical girls wish for things that make the world a better place, we're just helping their wishes, so it's wish^2. Same thing we're doing for your wish.

Tho, maybe isn't what we're looking for?

PS: haven't read the last two pages.
 
Firnagzen said:
worked," she whispers, and there's stark, raw pain in her voice, her shoulders hunched against a blow she's endured over and over and over again. "It never worked before."

"I won't let Oriko interfere-"

"It doesn't have to be her," Homura whispers, shaking her head. "It- all this works. For you."
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[x] That's not just because of me. I've talked before about how I can only do this much because I stand on the shoulders of giants, that I was given the knowledge and the power to help through no action of my own...
-[x] But it's more then that. This whole timeline... things are just lining up. Nagisa's contract should have happened earlier, very early on Sayaka didn't take a music player with her that would have triggered Kyousuke, Kirika's wish was different...
--[x] It's hard to be sure, but I think Madoka's wish set things up on a better, more fixable, track.
[x] But... nobody should have to do this alone. Not you, not me. I've been pushing and pushing to get everyone to work together, because that's the path that leads to the best ending.
-[x] And that means Homura's important too. If she wasn't able to hold things together for so long by herself (and she's incredible for being able to do that), none of you would be here now. Not me, not Mami, not Sayaka, not Madoka.
-[x] And I trust you beyond the ends of this world - You're reliable, in a way Mami or Sayaka just can't be. I said I wanted to help you, and I stand by that - but I couldn't have done this - can't do this - without your help either.
 
Vebyast said:
It feels overfocused because I'm digging past all of the cruft to get at the root cause. Homura's insecurity stems from her conclusion that she must do everything herself, which is rooted in Madoka's final request in the third loop. Her lack of progress is because she's reached the peak of her abilities and needs to accept help to get further, which reduces to the same chain. We can't simply explain that it's Madoka's Wish, because that would imply that the Right Way Forward was to let Madoka try to help, which Homura can't do because of the final request from the third loop. It all comes back to that promise. And since it all gets there eventually, that's where we need to be focusing our attention. We can dress it up, go through whatever points we want to make in the meantime, but ultimately speaking that is what we need to do right now.
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Okay, frankly? That is not a one conversation endeavor you're talking about right here. Yes it's the problem that is at the root of everything Homura's having trouble with but at the same time trying to social someone into throwing aside one of the ideals at the very core of who they are (to the point where even Homura's witch is self-sufficiency) is not something you do in an afternoon.

Making steps towards that direction is worthwhile and we should do that, but it's not going to be a one-and-done thing. Trying to simplify it to that level is asking for a shouting match at best.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
*Just waits for his vote to be ignored, yet again.*

Why do I ever bother?
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Because there is a good solid kernel in your proposed vote, such that even if you don't win the vote, I'm certain that your ideas will be included.

Overall, for all proposed votes we should emphasize that Homura is winning now! That she is a part of the winning plan, and without her help we wouldn't be where we are now!

And if it's really necessary to point out anything she lacked in a previous loop to win, we should point out that she didn't have a helping Homura of her own as the first item.

Edit: And after reviewing how the proposed votes are currently worded;

[X] SaltyWaffles

-Which is what I was originally leaning towards incidentally.
Adhoc vote count started by Madou Sutegobana on Apr 11, 2018 at 12:04 PM, finished with 136062 posts and 6 votes.
  • [X] We have a couple of notable advantages.
    -[X] It helps that we can be in two places at once. If she remembers the night where Sayaka ran into Kyouko, that scared the crap out of you when Sayaka left. You would have sent her after Sayaka if you hadn't heard back from blue within the hour.
    -[X] But even ignoring that... Her looks and bearing, and your sheer stupid power, get both of you a lot of respect as long as you're not the bad guys. When was the last time Mami took on a senpai role towards her? Sayaka looks up to her -- not entirely, but it's there. Things are different from the last time she tried a loop like this, because she's different. And because of it, people are willing to actually listen to her once they count her as their friend. People are willing to let her intervene when she needs to.
    [X] And that's really the biggest thing we have going for us personally. Because we share her ability to provide for the team, her ability to command respect -- but the crucial difference is that we haven't been hurt so damn many times that we can't think to reach out to the people around us.
    [X] Well, to be fair, I have a huge bargaining chip that you never had: free, unlimited cleansing, as well as a massively powerful ally. That sways people, and convinces them that you're worth fighting for in a way that no amount of Grief Seeds ever would.
    [X] "You never really had an opportunity to learn charisma and persuasion skills. And while you've had a lot of time to learn since your Wish, you've also been constantly subjected to immense emotional trauma, with no one who could help you deal with it. That makes charisma and persuasion far more difficult. You've been fighting against a massive handicap all along, with no one to help you and no way to figure out what to do about it. I'd say you've done remarkably well, under the circumstances."
    [X] "Do you have any idea how hard it is to start all over and try again, after losing everything? Most people struggle to do that kind of thing once. You've done it dozens of times, without anyone to even talk to, ever since you were--what? 13? The fact that you haven't given up is, by itself, utterly remarkable. Don't sell yourself short. Everyone needs a helping hand, myself included. I'd never have gotten this far without you, for instance. Sayaka would be dead. Oriko would be at large. Kyubey would probably know everything. And more."
    [X] "You're fucking amazing, Homura, and we've only gotten this far because we've done it together. Also, remember how I came about because of Madoka's Wish? Well, the only reason she ever had a chance to even make that Wish is because of all of your efforts."
    [X] "Most people don't pop out of nowhere with a good idea as to how to fix the problems of a bunch of other people they never met but remember really well. I can't say for certain how I'm here, but we both probably have a good guess. If a wish is powerful... What about a wish that helps other wishes? "
    [x] That's not just because of me. I've talked before about how I can only do this much because I stand on the shoulders of giants, that I was given the knowledge and the power to help through no action of my own...
    -[x] But it's more then that. This whole timeline... things are just lining up. Nagisa's contract should have happened earlier, very early on Sayaka didn't take a music player with her that would have triggered Kyousuke, Kirika's wish was different...
    --[x] It's hard to be sure, but I think Madoka's wish set things up on a better, more fixable, track.
    [x] But... nobody should have to do this alone. Not you, not me. I've been pushing and pushing to get everyone to work together, because that's the path that leads to the best ending.
    -[x] And that means Homura's important too. If she wasn't able to hold things together for so long by herself (and she's incredible for being able to do that), none of you would be here now. Not me, not Mami, not Sayaka, not Madoka.
    -[x] And I trust you beyond the ends of this world - You're reliable, in a way Mami or Sayaka just can't be. I said I wanted to help you, and I stand by that - but I couldn't have done this - can't do this - without your help either.
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The Phoenixian said:
Okay, frankly? That is not a one conversation endeavor you're talking about right here. Yes it's the problem that is at the root of everything Homura's having trouble with but at the same time trying to social someone into throwing aside one of the ideals at the very core of who they are (to the point where even Homura's witch is self-sufficiency) is not something you do in an afternoon.

Making steps towards that direction is worthwhile and we should do that, but it's not going to be a one-and-done thing. Trying to simplify it to that level is asking for a shouting match at best.
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Every vote I see runs into it headfirst. If we say anything about Madoka's Wish we'll be dealing with it in the next vote. And if we're already dealing with it in the conversation, we need to be ready for it, instead of letting her get there on her own. I agree that we can't dive into it and we won't resolve it in one conversation, but we still must bend our current vote toward it, otherwise we're doing nothing or worse.
 
Vebyast said:
It feels overfocused because I'm digging past all of the cruft to get at the root cause. Homura's insecurity stems from her conclusion that she must do everything herself, which is rooted in Madoka's final request in the third loop. Her lack of progress is because she's reached the peak of her abilities and needs to accept help to get further, which reduces to the same chain. We can't simply explain that it's Madoka's Wish, because that would imply that the Right Way Forward was to let Madoka try to help, which Homura can't do because of the final request from the third loop. It all comes back to that promise. And since it all gets there eventually, that's where we need to be focusing our attention. We can dress it up, go through whatever points we want to make in the meantime, but ultimately speaking that is what we need to do right now.
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That ain't the actual issue? Homura hasn't maxed out, we just moments ago had her explore an entire undeveloped branch of her magic. As a person, there are many more undeveloped skills she could be using. Without a supporter, she never had the time to consider trying these paths. It isn't about inability, it is about being confined.


Vebyast said:
So why does it work for us but not for Homura? And how do we share that without crushing Homura further?
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We tell her it isn't about Sabrina. Sabrina is not actually leading. We are the high-range support player - literally a battery for our friends. It's about making it work for Madoka, and all humanity. Further, Sabrina somehow traded the contents of her own psyche, only to be filled with Homura's history, and every other thing that relates to The System. That history could not exist if Homura didn't live it first. We are what her labor sums up to, somehow. After we save the world for a few years, Sabrina the irregular Magical Girl won't be so important, we'll be side by side. For right now, Sabrina is the powerful tool that moves Homura's wish forward, but not without someone to use that tool. It isn't that it works only for us. Striving for goodness is what's working. That's why Oriko is working out this time, because she seems to have good within her, as well.

Isn't Homura supposed to be the one who protects? That isn't wrong at all. It is alright to test, in the face of danger. Instead of fearing Oriko blindly, what is Homura's surveillance showing her? (We let on that we understand she stalks them. And we accept that.)

We can say that we gather allies from any source we can, and we aren't going to be done any time soon. Every scrap of power that helps, we need to use. We need Homura and Mami and Sayaka to help us do it right, because we have so much drive to get this done. And we need Hitomi and Madoka to support us all, because the end goal is life. A full life, where we all grow up. By expanding our goals to world scale, we might be rewarded with personal success that isn't flawed. We make a city, and with that city we re-make the world.

Big enough speech notes? Not sure how to pack this up into code talk. But I think the concept of putting her self-assessment into a world perspective might be the first thing to do. I don't want her to focus on self-assessment. Doing healthy things will lead to healthy results, self absorption isn't useful. Especially not for Homura.
 
[ ] I'm cheating. A lot.
- [ ] Every time you do this, you have to start over with nothing but the knowledge you've gained over all your tries.
- [ ] I got to start with all the knowledge you've gained over your tries, plus a Homura Akemi

That's pretty much what it amounts to. Everything Sabrina knows for free, she got more or less because Homura lived it and bled for it. Knowing how to make a crazy powerful wish? Because Homura spent umpteen loops learning the nature of Kyubey, and magic, and magical girls.

Knowing about witch-bombs, and lich-bombs, and who can be told things safely vs. who will go nuts? Because Homura lived it, Sabrina got that information for free.

This iteration is one with two Homuras; small wonder it's going better.
 
Homura is jealous. Her Homucifer-cation was instigated by jealousy. Has the possibility been raised that she might turn after we defeat Wally because it wasn't her that saved Madoka. Could Homura be okay with not being the most important actor in Madoka's salvation?
Because Canon says no.
 
Phigment said:
[ ] I'm cheating. A lot.
- [ ] Every time you do this, you have to start over with nothing but the knowledge you've gained over all your tries.
- [ ] I got to start with all the knowledge you've gained over your tries, plus a Homura Akemi

That's pretty much what it amounts to. Everything Sabrina knows for free, she got more or less because Homura lived it and bled for it. Knowing how to make a crazy powerful wish? Because Homura spent umpteen loops learning the nature of Kyubey, and magic, and magical girls.

Knowing about witch-bombs, and lich-bombs, and who can be told things safely vs. who will go nuts? Because Homura lived it, Sabrina got that information for free.

This iteration is one with two Homuras; small wonder it's going better.
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Finely distilled!

CornyBones said:
Homura is jealous. Her Homucifer-cation was instigated by jealousy. Has the possibility been raised that she might turn after we defeat Wally because it wasn't her that saved Madoka. Could Homura be okay with not being the most important actor in Madoka's salvation?
Because Canon says no.
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Oh, even if we get thirty or fifty other girls to help cut Walpurgisnacht down to size, I would not dream of bypassing the therapeutic moment of handing Homura the final duel. And we'll need to get that on DVD too.
 
Maybe, a way to phrase the parts about how Homu is so awesome at Determination...

Is putting it in context. Not just say she's awesome and we just got handed powers and metaknowledge; rather, touch on how Homu does try to help others still, even if she claims to not rely on anyone.

She fails because it hurts so fucking much she can't bring herself to put in the necessary effort. She makes half hearted attempts at manipulating others into helping, but doesn't actually bring her own hopes up, doesn't go the extra mile, because it will hurt so much more when she fails again.

Us? We are putting that effort. We are going the extra mile, caring, trying to do the same thing Homu failed to do.

And it's thanks to her. Not just her, but yes: There's Madoka's Wish, which seems to actively make everything fix-able; and then there's all the knowledge we've got from Homura's loops, that let us make informed, even wise decisions.

We got her failures but not the pain that would've come with them. So we can try the things she did, but better because we know the things Homura knew, and what she learned from her failures.

We would not have got this far if we didn't have this. And we would not be able to put so much of our effort and faith into trying to make everything work, if it wasn't the first time we were doing this.

Timelooping would destroy us. These two weeks already feel like four years and everything's working better than we have a right to make them work; we can't imagine what it'd be like to go through what Homura's gone through.

...

Of course, this only addresses Why Homura's Past Actions Have Value; we also need to go into Why Homura's Present And Future Efforts Are Important.
 
I think Homura would respond more to an emotional arguement, not a logical one.

[]It doesn't work for me all the time. I've messed up a lot.
-[]I'm cheating really. I have this wish, and this knowledge, and I'm pretty sure Madoka's wish from the previous timeline ks backing me up.
-[]You're better than I am - I don't think I could have gone through what you went through.
 
[jk] I'm not sure where I was for ten years. :: Deepest bow and humility::
-[jk] I'm the summation to the remainder of a system of differential equations.
-[jk] Brain damage? But I'm sorry. I'm the complementary part of your Wish! And every other Wish!
-[jk] Do you have time to even worry about this stuff? Didn't think so
--[jk] If you have enough time to doubt yourself, spend that time with Madoka instead. Much better.
 
... Trying to summarize each point into a line or two. If not for this vote, for clarity's sake.

[] Try to put things in context. Unravel the mysteries of your mind in Homura's eyes.

[] Be mindful of Homura's issues.
-[] "I won't rely on anyone anymore."
-[] Her need to be the one to protect Madoka.

[] It's not just you, but a lot of factors making things work.
-[] Madoka's Wish:
--[] The power we've been granted.
--[] How this timeline just works better.
-[] Us: Our actual contribution is helping everyone work together.
-[] Homura: The knowledge we've received from her loops.
--[] Mention how many of our 'successes' come from metaknowledge; contrast with how we've handled Ono and Akiko.
--[] The reason 'we' can make things work is because we know about Homura's experiences.
--[] It's not that Homura is wrong to not try her best to make everyone work together. Because us? We wouldn't have made it through the first loop.
--[] Hell, we didn't make it through the Oriko hunt. That was all Homura...
-[] All of our friends, Homura included: The sheer amount and quality of support we receive is what allows us to choose our paths of action so boldy and succeed.
 
The way I see things, Homura drew a map, or put together most of the pieces of a puzzle. Madoka's wish either created the missing pieces of the puzzle, or shifted around the hazards on the map just enough to find a way through depending on which metaphor you like better. Sabrina is looking down on those changes with her metaknowledge and taking advantage of the opportunity the others have provided.

Homura is foundation. She's the rock everything depends on. None of this would be possible without her previous and continued support.

Madoka is... Haxx. She is the key. She is... I don't have a good metaphor, but she's what enabled Homura to become the foundation, and she's what enabled Sabrina to become...

Sabrina is the guide. She's seen the many paths, and she's been given the gift of seeing a route to victory open up before her eyes (thanks firn). The foundation drew the map, the key unlocked the way forward, now Sabrina is guiding them through the hazards.

This is a collaborative effort, and success depends upon each of the players doing their part.

Objection: Madoka making her wish was bad. This was a failure on Homura's part, painting it as good or necessary is something she'd object to.

Counter-argument: Madoka was involved in the past. Homura's goal is for her to remain safe and uncontracted in the present. This is so. We already know Homura has failed in the past. What's important is that she set things up to make success in the present possible.
 
Thoughts so far:

Core narrative points:
1: We're not doing this on our own. Our success and strength is the result of everyone's efforts including, especially, Homura herself.
2: We can give Homura tools to do better if we fail.

Potential Supplementary points:
A: Madoka's wish may have resulted in more than just us. Sayaka, Nagisa, Kazumi, Niko, and even Mami have all acted differently than they should have. As if some echo something like
B: Hypothetical timelines exist that may have relevant information. (worth obfuscating the source? IE: talk about taking people with her by asking if she takes items with her from other timelines.)
C: Other options for carrying things forwards (creating enchantments to help her, helping her understanding and of relationships with Sayaka, Mami, et all, etc.)

[] "If I have seen far, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants"
- [] You have her own history and the history of others advising you on people and metaphysics... and you have her and others, here and now, helping you. Especially her. You wouldn't have gotten half as far if you didn't.
[] Ask if Homura's worried that it'll all be lost if she loops.
-[] ????????????????


@Firnagzen Are the alternate-brina semi-canon omakes fair game for discussion?
kinda considering the merits of "[] you even have a few of your own alternate-self fuckups to teach you caution" as a point.
 
[ ] Sabrina didn't do this. We all did this. Sabrina couldn't have done any of this without Homura... without everyone.
-[ ] Kyubey cheats. The game is rigged so that no girl can win alone. The only way to beat him is to work together, and he does everything he can to keep us apart.
--[ ] Without Homura... without her determination to keep going through a decade of hell to give us this chance... we wouldn't have accomplished anything.
 
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