Most important things would likely be how much Grief they get per Seed, how many Seeds they get on average in a given period, and how they convert Grief -> Whatever energy they use.
First two give us a target quantity of Grief, third gives potential for making better Grief (if we know how they use Grief, we can consider how to make the Grief they get more efficient).
As for it giving faulty information, I'd think it more likely that, if Kyubey doesn't think we can do better, it wouldn't give us anything at all. Some sort of security clearance issue, most likely.
Kyubey omits data more often than it falsifies data, after all. As such, the only answer of the three that could be untrustworthy is the last one.
... That's not exactly INFORMATION. Like, we can probably ask and get an answer, if we don't number crunch it ourselves.

Hell, we don't need to know how KB converts Grief. If we can generate enough Grief, we just give it to him in exchange for stopping his witch system and let him deal with it.

Also, it's not really important to know how much Grief/s KB needs. Until we start sciencing it and doing good progress, it's just a matter of getting more. How much is up for negotiation.
 
I don't, actually. Do you know roughly when in the quest that was so I can reread it? Kyuubey's generally pretty forthcoming when asked for information, except on other magical girls from what I recall.
Here. If we accept that Kyuubey doesn't say straight lies, the Grief feedback loop was considered and discarded in favour of the Witch System.
"Huh," you say thoughtfully. "So all of these generation corruption, right?" you raise your Soul Gem ring for emphasis.

"Correct," Kyuubey observes.

"And I can clean off the corruption, thus generating a positive feedback loop," you muse out loud.

"Where are you going with this, Sabrina?" Mami asks, puzzled.

"Eh... I can generate corruption from nothing," you shrug. "Might be useful for Kyuubey?"

"Fighting and defeating Witches would likely be a more efficient use of your time," Kyuubey replies.

Would it, though?

You shrug. "Eh. Just an idea. Uh, Mami, the time?" you comment, glancing at the clock.

Not saying we can't find out how to generate Grief better, faster, but it's something we need to find out without KB's help.
 
Remember that time when we asked Kyuubey if we should use our powers to create more Grief for him, and he dismissed us out of hand, pointing how the best way to do that was to fight Witches like a nice little meguca?
Way to think one-dimensionally.

He said that when we were first starting out, when we generated a paltry amount of Grief, and we were suggesting that that alone could solve everything ever.

We're talking about inventing some kind of new method or refinement to the existing method that improves efficiency. If it improves efficiency by even 1%, that's MASSIVELY better than a Madoka Witch, because that 1% is being applied to every world the Incubators operate on across the entire universe, for billions upon billions of years.

The milennia old 'rational' paperclip maximizer doesn't believe we can do this. It didn't told us how we could experiment with our powers in order to help his quota, it didn't answer to our offer with an offer of knowledge so that in the future we might be able to help him so.
He never said this. He said that Sabrina, by herself, generating a paltry amount of grief through casual magic usage was less efficient than hunting Witches.

It's like the difference in energy output between starting a tiny fire by rubbing sticks together and the energy output of, say, a series of nuclear reactors. You need to advance your research, understanding of the mechanics/physics/magic, and refine methods.

It just told us to go along with his plan. Kyuubey believes his plan is best.
We didn't even have a plan, back then. We had done no research. We didn't even really have a proposal. We were one girl, generating a paltry amount of Grief, which was objectively a lot less efficient than just hunting Witches.

Saying that we plan on finding some way of improving the system, even if it takes us 1000 years of research and experimentation, is far more credible of a plan.

Unless we change that, unless we make Kyuubey believe we can create something better for him, it will keep doing the same thing.
No, because Kyubey is not a moron and is capable of seeing the value of long-term payoff. We don't need to hand him an improvement on a silver platter, just convince him that we represent a reasonable chance of providing some kind of improvement eventually. Which is definitely within our abilities.

You want Kyuubey to give us information that would help us create better grief/energy generating systems?

Fine. I wouldn't trust him to give us good information, but maybe that's just me. However, first you need to give him a reason to do it. KB giving up the information is not something that'll happen if it doesn't believe it would be useful.
"Kyubey, can you tell me about the system so that I can better research ways on improving it?"

"Well, if you're interested in trying to figure out a way to improve the system, then I have everything to gain and nothing to lose by telling you."

And if it isn't inclined to believe that we can pull it off? Do some research and experimentation, and share it with him, until we pull off enough unprecedented stuff that he starts to believe we might be able to do it.

Finding out how much Grief a Seed generates, how quickly? That's trivial. Any big secrets of Grief generation or... something...

Actually, what do you think would be important information Kyuubey would give us in order to better create Grief/energy? Because at the moment, I can't think of an example.
We don't know. That's the point. It might have extremely useful information to give us, it might not. But if we never even try, we have zero chance of ever finding out.
 
Here. If we accept that Kyuubey doesn't say straight lies, the Grief feedback loop was considered and discarded in favour of the Witch System.

Not saying we can't find out how to generate Grief better, faster, but it's something we need to find out without KB's help.
Actually had found that half a second before you posted. :p It's 'Entanglement', part 20 for anyone interesting in looking at the whole context of it.

This is... fairly weak proof of your assertion, I'm going to say. I will agree that it doesn't seem too much like Kyuubey's interested in the idea at the current level of efficiency. That's not the same as if, in principle, a more efficient system that didn't involve Witches existed, they wouldn't be interested in that. More interesting is their reaction to Clear Seeds in 'A Red Letter Day', part 17:
"Do you know how much trouble you're going to cause with the Clear Seeds?" Kyuubey asks.

"Lots, or so everyone tells me," you say, eyeing the Grief.
Except, unfortunately, we don't get any elaboration on this, due to the circumstances (and I doubt a vote to hunt down Kyuubey and ask what they meant by that would succeed), so we don't actually know what they're concerned about in regards to Clear Seed distribution, though we can speculate it's that one or both of 1) fewer Witches will be born and 2) magical girls will face less pressure to fight Witches, resulting in fewer Witches and Familiars that currently exist being killed, and allowing them to turn their attention to other pursuits.

Note that Kyuubey does provide detailed assistance when it assists their goals, such as helping Sabrina hide Grief. In this quest we've never gotten them to state their goals clearly in regards to Witches and entropy in this quest, as far as I'm aware, largely due to the fact that asking Kyuubey about it reveals the far-too-large extent of Sabrina's knowledge.

As an aside, it's worth noting is that Kyuubey seems to be regarded as a reliable way of verifying certain information, or at least by Nadia, who is in some part aware of their true nature (Red Letter Day, end of part 5):
"It's true, Nadia," an unfortunately familiar voice says, echoing in your head.

Kyuubey.

Your head snaps up, finding the creature as it hops up onto Nadia's lap.

Mami flinches, expression crumpling, and her hand grows tight on yours.

"Oh, hello Kyuubey," Nadia says, peering down at the creature. "So Sabrina truly can cleanse Soul Gems?"

"Indeed!" it responds, tail waving slowly.
 
I will agree that it doesn't seem too much like Kyuubey's interested in the idea at the current level of efficiency.
I don't see how the then 'current' level of efficiency enters the equation. At all?

I expect the millenia old paperclip maximizer to consider the possibility of research and improvement before dismissing the idea. Otherwise it wouldn't be a paperclip maximizer. :p

Take KB at face value for a moment. He not only pushed us away from trying to create Grief ex-nihilo then and there, he dismissed the entirety of the potential of us researching into it. If KB had believed that we could've used Grief powers to make an impact in his Grief generation farming, given enough time, don't you think it would have done anything other than dismissing the idea and pushing us to do something else with our time?
 
Remember that time when we asked Kyuubey if we should use our powers to create more Grief for him, and he dismissed us out of hand, pointing how the best way to do that was to fight Witches like a nice little meguca?

Here. If we accept that Kyuubey doesn't say straight lies, the Grief feedback loop was considered and discarded in favour of the Witch System.

I'll tell you why he dismissed that plan. A magical Girl will produce something around 3-5 seeds a week, based on what someone said about using two gems a week if they didn't do any magic. We don't know how many magical girls are on Earth at the moment, but it's probably somewhere in the millions. That means QB gets at least 3-5 million grief seeds per week.

We know that one seed holds a fuckton of grief, and that a not-quite-full soul gem produces, at most, and handful of marbles. This means the idea of Sabrina producing enough grief to replace QB harvesting can be dismissed. It also means that even if we were to have every magical girl in the world filling up their gem and having it cleansed by Sabrina, we would not equal the amount of grief that a single week of global seed harvesting produces.

So yes, QB dismissed the idea out of hand. Him doing otherwise would be ludicrous.
 
I don't see how the then 'current' level of efficiency enters the equation. At all?

I expect the millenia old paperclip maximizer to consider the possibility of research and improvement before dismissing the idea. Otherwise it wouldn't be a paperclip maximizer. :p

Take KB at face value for a moment. He not only pushed us away from trying to create Grief ex-nihilo then and there, he dismissed the entirety of the potential of us researching into it. If KB had believed that we could've used Grief powers to make an impact in his Grief generation farming, given enough time, don't you think it would have done anything other than dismissing the idea and pushing us to do something else with our time?
...Research doesn't enter into this at all? Sabrina brings up the feasibility of generating Grief for Kyuubey directly. Kyuubey responds that fighting Witches would likely be a more efficient use of time in that context - i.e., that the Grief obtained by Kyuubey from Sabrina obtaining and using seeds is likely to be higher in Grief output and involve the additional benefit of removing people-killing monsters from the wild. Additional research or possible capabilities are not mentioned.

I'm also not sure what your paperclip maximizer comment is referring to. I don't actually characterise Kyuubey as just that; I just argue within that logic because from my understanding @Vebyast and others believe in that characterisation.

Edit: Added in tags because mentioning people by name without it is kind of unfair.
 
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I'll tell you why he dismissed that plan. A magical Girl will produce something around 3-5 seeds a week, based on what someone said about using two gems a week if they didn't do any magic. We don't know how many magical girls are on Earth at the moment, but it's probably somewhere in the millions. That means QB gets at least 3-5 million grief seeds per week.

We know that one seed holds a fuckton of grief, and that a not-quite-full soul gem produces, at most, and handful of marbles. This means the idea of Sabrina producing enough grief to replace QB harvesting can be dismissed. It also means that even if we were to have every magical girl in the world filling up their gem and having it cleansed by Sabrina, we would not equal the amount of grief that a single week of global seed harvesting produces.

So yes, QB dismissed the idea out of hand. Him doing otherwise would be ludicrous.
Yes, the idea Sabrina could collaborate with her powers as were
was ludicrous.

This doesn't explain why KB basically shut down the entire line of research.

Additional research or possible capabilities are not mentioned.
Exactly! KB doesn't give a care about our potential to help his quota this way. At all.

Even thought we're an unique, special case with never before seen powers, even if our powers directly relate to the energy KB is harvesting.

It does not give it a single second though. It dismisses our idea in a way that implies we should forget about the whole idea of trying to help him with our powers.

By the whole paperclip maximizer thing, I mean KB wants to maximize Grief production, and is... pretty much a robot dedicated to it, so he would've been the first to consider if our power could be used to help his quota.

I expect that much out of him, at least. And so I read his statement as dismissing the idea altogether.
 
Exactly! KB doesn't give a care about our potential to help his quota this way. At all.

Even thought we're an unique, special case with never before seen powers, even if our powers directly relate to the energy KB is harvesting.

It does not give it a single second though. It dismisses our idea in a way that implies we should forget about the whole idea of trying to help him with our powers.

It's super late and I cannot brain right now so bear with me. It's possible that QB, having spent thousands of years observing humanity, has picked up on the social ques that we don't like him, and has thus decided not to press the issue. And is avoiding us because he does not want to alienate :V us any further. Or something like that.

As for why he did not do the research stuff when we first brought it up, maybe he didn't realize the extent that we could control grief? He did seem very interested in our witch barrier.
 
Yes, the idea Sabrina could collaborate with her powers as were

was ludicrous.

This doesn't explain why KB basically shut down the entire line of research.


Exactly! KB doesn't give a care about our potential to help his quota this way. At all.

Even thought we're an unique, special case with never before seen powers, even if our powers directly relate to the energy KB is harvesting.

It does not give it a single second though. It dismisses our idea in a way that implies we should forget about the whole idea of trying to help him with our powers.

By the whole paperclip maximizer thing, I mean KB wants to maximize Grief production, and is... pretty much a robot dedicated to it, so he would've been the first to consider if our power could be used to help his quota.

I expect that much out of him, at least. And so I read his statement as dismissing the idea altogether.
I don't get what you're arguing here. As far as I can tell you're arguing that as a paperclip maximizer of Grief, they should therefore consider the Sabrina's idea. As a result this behaviour either makes them stupid or not a paperclip maximizer. Alternatively, it could read as 'The idea you have proposed is not superior to the current method based on the information you have provided me.' It's not like they 'shut down' the research either - they're just not actively pursuing it. They don't show up when Sabrina is doing research and tell her to go hunt Witches - no, they express interest in her powers, and most recently offered suggestions!

I just feel that if someone's actions are not consistent with your model of them or are not effective at achieving their stated goals under that model, your model is probably wrong, or you're misinterpreting the intention behind their actions.
 
maybe he didn't realize the extent that we could control grief?
This is the entire point of the example. I believe it might be possible to use Grief powers and research time to create important amounts of Grief. I'm also saying that, despite my other misgivings, anyone who believes Kyuubey would give us his... useful important grief research notes (?) would need to convince him that it would be worth giving us such things.

Otherwise it would:

"Fighting and defeating Witches would likely be a more efficient use of your time," Kyuubey replies.

I get that some people don't agree, and think KB would gift us useful, non-sabotaged knowledge if we just ask, but there we simply disagree.

As a result this behaviour either makes them stupid or not a paperclip maximizer.
Or... the entire possibility doesn't hold a candle to the Witch system in KB's mind.

Alternatively, it could read as 'The idea you have proposed is not superior to the current method based on the information you have provided me.' It's not like they 'shut down' the research either - they're just not actively pursuing it. They don't show up when Sabrina is doing research and tell her to go hunt Witches - no, they express interest in her powers, and most recently offered suggestions!
KB would take any extras offered. You might find this nitpicky, but the way KB phrased his answer reads entirely dismissive to me; it behooved us not even try.

And it makes sense. Grief Seeds, Witches, and Wishes provides colossal amounts of energy. The powers of a single magical girl, however 'special' just shouldn't matter in that scale.

But still, KB would take any extra. It does take our Grief, after all. So if it considered Sabrina's powers could be useful at all in this regard, it should have given us some sort of push in the right direction, so he could have Sabrina hunt witches and generate extra Grief.
 
Or... the entire possibility doesn't hold a candle to the Witch system in KB's mind.


KB would take any extras offered. You might find this nitpicky, but the way KB phrased his answer reads entirely dismissive to me; it behooved us not even try.

And it makes sense. Grief Seeds, Witches, and Wishes provides colossal amounts of energy. The powers of a single magical girl, however 'special' just shouldn't matter in that scale.

But still, KB would take any extra. It does take our Grief, after all. So if it considered Sabrina's powers could be useful at all in this regard, it should have given us some sort of push in the right direction, so he could have Sabrina hunt witches and generate extra Grief.
So... Let me try to clarify this.

You're arguing that Kyubey is close-minded. They are not open to new ideas and changes to its current Grief-collecting system.

Is this an accurate summation of your argument?
 
I would actually say that Kyuubey has a huge incentive to sabotage Sabrina and company if they start to succeed at bringing magical girls together to cooperate.

Kyuubey is not interested in uplifting humanity into a Kyuubey-equivalent state of technological power. It's optimizing for grief production, not for human flourishing. We know because we can see how it has behaved, and it's busy mind-wiping witnesses to maintain a masquerade.

The biggest (plausibly likely) threat to Kuubmanity vis a vis Earth humans is that humans use magic to bootstrap themselves up rapidly into something that can be a problem for Kyuubeys. And that would be pretty straightforward to do if humans knew how wishing worked and were able to make informed wishes that built upon each other and leveraged previous and future wishes.

Sabrina passing out clear seeds is not a serious problem. It's maybe an inconvenient dent in their energy budget, but Sabrina won't live forever, and the Kyuubeys manifestly are working to make sure they do live forever. She could give every magical girl in the world a personal clear seed, and defeat every single witch, and that would just be the equivalent of destroying the Earth; reducing its magical grief output to zero. Which is an outcome they're prepared to accept, even if it's not optimal.

The big problem is Sabrina getting magical girls to work together, and live long enough start learning things and sharing knowledge, and possibly approach some magical singularity tipping point where all of the sudden humanity can change the script on the Incubators. Clear seeds are inconvenient; Sayaka, without the danger of running out of magic and constantly meeting new magical girls and adding their powers to her own, is a possible existential threat.

That's where I think the negotiations inevitably are doomed to break down. Sabrina could hand the incubators a better grief engine, and I think they'd still be untrustworthy, because humans using magic to become gods is a plausible scenario and not one they are likely to be sanguine about.
Oh shit, even if we manage to make a better deal with kyubey he most likely see us as a rival instead.

Looks like we have to destroy or at least crippled incubator civilitation after all
 
So... Let me try to clarify this.

You're arguing that Kyubey is close-minded. They are not open to new ideas and changes to its current Grief-collecting system.

Is this an accurate summation of your argument?
I don't see how you get that from all the times I repeated that I considered KB to have already considered the possibilities that our Grief powers might help his quota.

My argument is:

If you want super secret grief info from KB, you need to give him a good reason to give it up.

KB has considered and dismissed our powers as being able to help him. So you need to change that first.

That's all.

I'll make this my last post on the subject, because I'm not sure if we've filled whole pages about it, and I've just been repeating these two ideas over and over.
 
Onmur, it really doesn't hurt to try. Because even if Kyuubey deliberately feeds us partial information, we're going to test all of that ourselves, preferably from within some sort of Grief Invulnerability Sphere with witchy grief optics inside designed to shut down long before any possible damage could be done to a human brain through any sort of nerve signals or any of that or blah blah blah blah blah.

You're being overly paranoid. No amount of cunning can make science dangerous, only poor science or poor safety precautions. And believe me, we're taking the most solid security precautions of any human being ever with our tests.

The worst he can do is disappoint us and tell us no. We're not even giving him any new information if we prod him with the right questions before-hand.

Next time we feed Kyuubey, I suggest we add one of these to the vote:

[ ] Ask Kyuubey what he does with the grief we give him
[ ] Ask him how he gets that energy from the grief
[ ] Ask him if there's different "compounds" or "shapes" or "states" of grief, or anything similar that we might have an easier time making than him
[ ] Ask him if he has any ideas to make our grief production more efficient (without filling our gem, obviously)
[ ] Ask him if we can get some sort of primer on what grief is. Perhaps an emotive mind might jump to a conclusion he couldn't reach. Humans have done shocking things before, right?
 
Have you looked at Knigget's plan? Its got 5 votes to the lead ones 10 and 7, looks like.

[] Ask how involved she was in the whole thing. Try to understand how much she knows about stuff without actually revealing the existence of the stuff she doesn't know.
-[] She confronted us for a reason... Does she just want to know more about this kind of stuff?
-[] Is she just looking to make sure her daughter is safe? Cuz she totally is! Hardly involved at all beyond just being a friend we can unwind with.

Short, focuses on getting more info from her, no mention of immediately dumping all the horror of meguca life.
To be honest, I'm pretty sure I had originally voted for that but thought it got changed or was from a different period or something. Forgive me, the last ~400 posts or whatever have been something of a clusterfuck and I lost track. It IS still decent, though.

Having thought about the situation... probably more than I ought to have, in all honesty, I simply cannot endorse any plan that seems likely to prevent us from building rapport with this potentially perfect ally that has basically dropped into our lap from out of nowhere. That involves things like basic etiquette and not being a shitty guest. Considering we already invited ourselves in the first place, we're toeing that line; traumatising our hostess would, 9 times out of 10 fall under the umbrella of "be a shitty guest". (I can't believe no one else has pointed this out). Consequently, Godwinson's, while well-intentioned, is more the sort of thing I would choose for a conference room presentation to investors, not tangent to an evening tutoring visit. Context is key!

How much time do we have left to decide? I'm a little tempted to take Phoenixian's side, though I believe it's overambitious and fairly rude to try to make more than vague mentions of planning for the future here. Keep it low key.
 
The vote wasn't about a science experiment with Kyuubey, it was about looking up information on Hitommy's old friend, without having been asked to, without even having verified that Hitommy wants us to.

There is a very good chance the infomation could be an infohazard. Even if it isn't there is no reason to pry into a Meguca's private life.
 
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Oh shit, even if we manage to make a better deal with kyubey he most likely see us as a rival instead.
Looks like we have to destroy or at least crippled incubator civilitation after all
Wishes cannot currently be made without an Incubator unit present. In the case that a potential is projected to constitute a significant threat, it is likely that the Incubators would not contract them in the first place, unless their potential is absolutely monumental. So maybe Madoka, depending on whether Incubators have potential as an ordinal or ratio measurement.

Can't game the system if the GM refuses to let you play in the first place.
And those that already are making a community and such? No nation lasts forever. Meguca working together means witches become scarce means meguca starve means meguca stop working together.

What we need to do is either:
1: Create a persistant means of grief generation that is both mutually exclusive with and superior to witches,
2: Change the universe such that magical girls cannot become witches (not kill witches before they hatch, make them impossible entirely), or
3: Break the Incubators.​

If the Grief generator is not mutually exclusive, the Incubators will use both. If it is not superior, they won't use it at all. This is also the only win condition the Incubators might be willing to aid us with.
If the meguca can become witches, they will. As Rebellion shows, killing them before they hatch is insufficient. This would likely require the Madowish.
Failing 1 and 2, the Incubators must be broken, lest the system persist. However, given how little we actually know reliably about them, this would be nigh impossible to do without forgoing all Social. I would consider this an extremely phyrric victory.
 
Hi gu-...

I leave for a several months, and miss a few thousand pages... neat. Well only one thing to do now.

Also, can't we just break the laws of thermodynamics and destroy entropy?

[X] The Phoenixian
 
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[Q] QB, if we wanted to make a anti-entropy system that surpasses Metal Gear, would you help us?
"Kyubey, I've created the ultimate solution to your entropy problem."

"Really? What would that be?"

"Allow me to introduce to you MECHA GURREN ZILLA LAGGEN! With its ludicrous supply of Spiral Energy, it can generate enough energy to dwarf galaxies with ease! And it has all of the extra coolness factor of Mecha Godzilla!"

"...you are a genius, Sabrina! Though I would rather you not throw around galaxies as shuriken. That's needlessly wasteful."
 
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