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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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landcollector said:
I am disappointed by this change, actually, probably one of the only people to feel this way admittedly. This remains a very unhealthy relationship imo. Oh well, too late now. *shrugs*
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You're not the only one.

Honestly, it makes me rather uncomfortable. Never really felt like it's the right time or the right kind of relationship Mami should have since I've always leaned towards a more familial or platonic kind of love, but oh well, gotta work with what we have.
 
As for the Mami relationship thing...

It's...difficult. On the one hand, Mami isn't really in a healthy state yet, and won't be for quite a while. She's doing vastly better than she has since we met her, but she's still really dependent on Sabrina for her own psychological health and stability. This could lead to bad situations in which Mami might, one day, feel that her romantic relationship with Sabrina is no longer desirable, but is too afraid of ruining their friendship to back out of the relationship. Or the other way around: that Sabrina might feel like a romantic relationship isn't working out, but is afraid to break up with Mami for fear of what it would do to her emotionally--but that's something that could conceivably be dealt with by just continuing to be her friend and staying with her. And, well, it's hard to imagine Sabrina feeling that way towards Mami for many years to come.

On the other hand, it's been pretty clear for a long time that Mami has romantic feelings towards Sabrina, which are certainly not stemming from her trauma or fears. Sabrina has repeatedly made it clear that she'll stay with Mami regardless of a romantic relationship or not. A relationship is clearly something that Mami actually wants, and is not doing out of fear. Additionally, being in an official relationship with Sabrina might actually make her feel less afraid of Sabrina leaving her, since being in an official relationship would make a separation much harder for the other party to go through with (especially without warning). As for the bad (hypothetical) situation mentioned above, well, Sabrina can repeatedly emphasize that ending their romantic relationship would not damage their friendship at all, should Mami ever feel that she wants to go that route. Sabrina is not nearly as dependent on Mami for her psychological health and stability, but it's been repeatedly emphasized how Sabrina wants to stay with Mami not just for Mami's sake, but for her own. Also, Sabrina and Mami are basically already in a relationship in everything but name. Sabrina definitely has romantic feelings towards Mami (and vice-versa). Hell, we've even asked other people about places to take Mami out on a date one day! Basically everyone can see it. At this point, asking Mami to officially be Sabrina's girlfriend would simply erase the doubts Mami might have about whether or not Sabrina returns her feelings (because there's no doubt in Sabrina's mind that she returns those feelings). And since Mami would be too afraid of jeopardizing their friendship to risk asking Sabrina out, Sabrina basically has to make the first move. Better that Mami not live in constant fear that she should bury her own feelings rather than be constantly tempted to act on them and (in her mind) risk her friendship with Sabrina.
 
Hannz said:
You're not the only one.

Honestly, it makes me rather uncomfortable. Never really felt like it's the right time or the right kind of relationship Mami should have since I've always leaned towards a more familial or platonic kind of love, but oh well, gotta work with what we have.
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I've always hated the notion that romantic love has to somehow be less than other kinds in various ways. It shouldn't be that way... Relationships should be defined and categorized by feelings and not acts. The question should be "what will change X in this relationship make person Y feel?" If the answer here is "uncomfortable" "unhappy" etc then it is not good. Would this change in the relationship be negative for Mami, short medium and or long term?

It's been said before but socializing is manipulation. The differences are in the intentions and outcomes. I'm not saying one way or another here -- the idea of Mami and Sabrina being official girlfriends has always been a bit alien to me, honestly. It's weird.

But I think, opposing something on the grounds that it's weird is shitty. If it has good intentions and outcomes, and you oppose it anyway, what does that mean?

And, I don't think anyone has ever predicted that this is going to end negatively. Anybody want to say otherwise?

And I don't think our intentions towards Mami are negative. Anyone want to say otherwise?
 
Kaizuki said:
And, I don't think anyone has ever predicted that this is going to end negatively. Anybody want to say otherwise?
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Playing devils advocate for the moment, I'll just note that a lot of people have pointed out the issues with unhealthily co-dependant relationships, which I think is essentially a prediction that the relationship with the mental states as they are will end poorly.

So I don't think that statement is true.
 
Personally, I'm just tired of harping on about "Healthy" relationships. Healthy relationships are something you get when you have a lifetime to pick and choose from a vast populace, and their value is...questionable. Mami needs someone to hold her together, who she can trust to never leave. Sabrina needs someone to anchor her and support her, in light of the overwhelming pressure of the situation she has found herself in. It might not be "healthy" to depend so heavily on one another, or to form a relationship while both parties are under such emotional strain...but I think we can all agree that not meeting those needs is worse. Mami wants more than just a roommate. Sabrina seems up for that. Trying to deny them this because it's uncomfortable or "unhealthy" means creating a giant rift between them, and that's going to cause a lot more damage in the long run.

tl;dr They're codependent because they're both in great need of support and they both trust each other implicitly. Denying them a relationship because these things end poorly when viewed statistically...seems needlessly cruel.
 
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Higure said:
Personally, I'm just tired of harping on about "Healthy" relationships. Healthy relationships are something you get when you have a lifetime to pick and choose from a vast populace, and their value is...questionable. Mami needs someone to hold her together, who she can trust to never leave. Sabrina needs someone to anchor her and support her, in light of the overwhelming pressure of the situation she has found herself in. It might not be "healthy" to depend so heavily on one another, or to form a relationship while both parties are under such emotional strain...but I think we can all agree that not meeting those needs is worse. Mami wants more than just a roommate. Sabrina seems up for that. Trying to deny them this because it's uncomfortable or "unhealthy" means creating a giant rift between them, and that's going to cause a lot more damage in the long run.

tl;dr They're codependent because they're both in great need of support and they both trust each other implicitly. Denying them a relationship because these things end poorly when viewed statistically...seems needlessly cruel.
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To add on to this, just because the relationship might start off 'unhealthy' doesn't mean it'll stay that way, and sometimes there's not really a healthy option.

If codependence on each other is the only way Mami can survive and get to a healthy point, then so be it. Sabrina is 100% not fucking abusing Mami and is absolutely, totally considerate of her emotional needs and autonomy, and the reverse is also true. They're willing and able to talk about their problems and try to work through them together because we're pushing for that.

Honestly, I can't really imagine a healthier relationship considering the circumstances.
 
Higure said:
Personally, I'm just tired of harping on about "Healthy" relationships. Healthy relationships are something you get when you have a lifetime to pick and choose from a vast populace, and their value is...questionable.
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Amen. "Healthy" is a sliding scale, when it comes to relationships and mental health.

No one is in perfect control of their emotional state 100% of the time (I should know, I spent a great deal of the last decade trying to be). The most important thing in any close relationship of this kind, whether it's a friend, a family member, or a significant other, is that they are ready and willing to help you deal with the times when you're not in control. (Not to say that it should be an expectation, but...well, when your breakdown happens, you tend to find out who your real friends are, ya dig?)

I think it's safe to say that a majority of the thread (and therefore Sabrina) stands ready, willing, and armed to the teeth to help Mami deal with any breakdowns. And, based on what we've seen from her, I'd also give better than even odds that Mami is willing to help Sabrina when those times come. Whether their relationship becomes that of a significant other, remains just close platonic friends, or lands somewhere in between is largely irrelevant; they've already reached the point where "mutual codependance" ceases being unhealthy, not least because there is a larger social net to help with the edges of a breakdown.
 
Well, I've already admitted I understand my feelings on the subject of a Mami relationship (ie I think it's bad) were a decided minority. *shrugs* I have little desire to further engage in a 3+ to 1 debate on the matter, so I'm dropping out of it here.
 
I'll feel a lot more comfortable with an actively romantic relationship once Mami and Kyoko have reconciled. Mami should have as large a support network as feasible.

That said, I can see where the SS BrinaMami is sailing.
 
I kind of like the idea of us and Mami together, but only after we help her recover from the trauma that made her become a limpet.
 
With the sheer adorableness of Sabrina and Mami's interactions, it's easy to forget, but has that much really changed in the few days that have passed in-universe since we decided that actively pursuing this might be taking advantage of her? All the things that were concerns then are still concerns now.
 
My girlfriend and I are in a co dependant relationship, and it's not completely healthy. But we both need it.
At such, i see us in Mami and Sabrina, like a fictional reflection.
 
I'm gonna +1 Jivan's sentiment here. My boyfriend, Tim, was the only thing keeping me stable and it was not healthy on my part but the alternative was a total inability to function in life, to the point that I kept letting him know I had sincere concerns that I'd kill myself if I ever lost him.

It was only through his refusing to abuse me in the state I was in, and making the commitment to stay with me and support me, that we got to a point that we could function as equal, healthy partners. I felt a lot like Mami does now. I see nothing wrong with their situation; Mami's nowhere near as bad as I used to be, regarding limpeting.
 
Aranfan said:
I'll feel a lot more comfortable with an actively romantic relationship once Mami and Kyoko have reconciled. Mami should have as large a support network as feasible.

That said, I can see where the SS BrinaMami is sailing.
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I can see this. We can wait to make it explicit after her and Kyouko reconcile - not only will she be in a good mood, but she'll have a social network larger than Sabrina, Homura, and Sayaka, the trifecta of social.

Actually now that I think about it Kyouko is kind of a shoddy addition to that but maybe the other three can pool their resources if the SS Mumibrina does the unthinkable and sinks.

AuraTwilight said:
Honestly, I can't really imagine a healthier relationship considering the circumstances.
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This is absolutely my stance on this. It's not necessary in the literal sense (although given Sabrina's feelings, something would have to come out eventually lest we accidentally Glory Girl the Mumi) I think Mami would be a lot more balanced with 2/3 friends and a romantic interest more than 3/4 friendships, not in the least because in the past friends have left her but she's never had a traumatic moment with romance (because she's never had one, natch), which should help her feel more secure in Sabrina. Not because it actually stops Sabrina from leaving, but because there's a definite societal difference and people, especially young teens, tend to put a lot of weight on romantic relationships.

I mean, we absolutely need to work on her friendships, because if we're the only person she can turn to for help and then we spring this on her it could be bad. But pretty soon we shouldn't be. Hopefully she'll have the bridges between herself, Kazusa, and possibly even Kyouko repaired and functional, which will give us an opportunity to confess to her.



I'm with you, Kai, on the idea that FRIENDSHIP should be viewed as just as strong a force as LOVE. And to be quite honest, I do find it irksome in a lot of media where they upgrade the relationship for really no reason from a friendly one to a romantic one. But this developed quite naturally - I don't think any of us were thinking of Mami as a romantic prospect for Sabrina early on in the thread (which reminds me that I ought to start a reread at some point when I have maybe a year or two worth of free time :p ), but now the vast majority support a relationship. This kind of organic growth is precisely what I like to see. We're Mami's friend before we're her girlfriend. It should absolutely stay that way. But that doesn't take away any power from the girlfriend part of things. As powerful as our Ludus, Philia, and maybe even Eros (I doubt we're privy to all of Sabrina's thoughts. Rules suggest it will remain staunchly that way.) is, my favorite kind of love is Pragma, and that's precisely what we have with Mami.
 
Honestly, I'm just glad that everyone has managed to get this far without our house of cards falling and taking everything with it.
 
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