Orc Quest; or, A Critical Examination of Agency Through in Interactive Fiction (Warcraft)

but now you look at his hands, once clawed by fleshy, now covered in toughened scales.
er, what?
but I knew were still alive, you're my son after all
"you" is missing here somewhere.

I also had a section on the shamanism infopost about how there are culturally distinctive practices of shamanism, so between all of that even if the reader hadn't played wow before or was familiar with the lore they could comprehend that you're practicing a particular sort of shamanism that puts you in opposition to the elements.
Hmm, it may come out as wrong, but how correct would be to consider elementals "people"? It might be my experience with DnD where they were used as fodder (and especially in earlier editions a mage had to do Control checks to prevent them from turning on a summoner), but I placed a relationship between shamans and elementals roughly in the same category as one between druids/beastmasters and animals. Which is why Kardris' explanation made a lot of sense - no culture sees breaking in a steed as something particularly reprehensible, even though a druid could probably cajole one into carrying them willingly.

Higher/mightier elementals probably have greater sentience and may warrant different considerations, but they are also not trivially bound.
 
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Are Elementals 'people'?
er, what?

"you" is missing here somewhere.


Hmm, it may come out as wrong, but how correct would be to consider elementals "people"? It might be my experience with DnD where they were used as fodder (and especially in earlier editions a mage has to do Control checks to prevent it from turning on a summoner), but I placed a relationship between shamans and elementals roughly in the same category as one between druids/beastmasters and animals. Which is why Kardris' explanation made a lot of sense - no culture sees breaking in a steed as something particularly reprehensible, even though a druid could probably cajole one into carrying them willingly.

Higher/mightier elementals probably have greater sentience and may warrant different considerations, but they are also not trivially bound.
Well, for a start there are enough elementals that are sufficiently sentient to require their own language Kalimag with even "minor manifestations of fire" able to speak it

T ma suz'ahn reth T ma fiilrok tadrom dra T krin os nuk talsa reth krin shone sto toro tu ko zoln reth
I am eternal fire. I am forever reborn and I will be the light that will guide you when it is most cold.


Furthermore, while Kalimag is the overall language each elemental plane has its own sub-dialect, Ignan (fire), Aquan (water), Terran (earth), and Auran (air).

That alone is pretty compelling evidence that yeah a lot of them are "people" you don't need a lingua franca, never mind specific sub dialects unless there's a lot of people to speak it and what's more those people are interacting with other very different people on a regular basis.

Furthermore they've a sufficiently large society that they have a hierarchy of nobles seemingly out of requirement not just power. Forneaus isn't just a duke of the earth because it sounds cool, its because he is a legitimately delegated authority from Therazane and manages a large chunk of her realm. A better example is probably Al'Akir, who specifically has a lord for each of the 4 winds,

Anshal, Lord of the West Wind
Nezir, Lord of the North Wind
Rohash, Lord of the East Wind
Siamat, Lord of the South Wind

And what's more when Ragnaros is slain the firelands go into an out and out succession crisis, with different factions that make up the fire lands going at each other to try and take his place. In the end the child of one of Ragnaros's lieutenants (Pyroth, son of lord Rhyolith) and Smolderon emerge as the dominant factions. (Smolderon wins).

There's more stuff I can point too, but it all leads back to a similar point, they have need for so many of the things that a large complex society of people requires that its hard to say that they're not one. In fact 4 since each are functionally independent kingdoms.

The TLDR as far as I can tell is that as a society they have far too many institutions and complexities for them not to be people, not people with organic ways of looking at the world to be fair, but even minor manifestations can speak, feel pain and offer assistance.
 
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Random musings on where we go from here. Of course this is rather presumptive as I've no idea what's going to happen here, but I'm still operating on the assumption that we're getting kicked out in one way shape or form. In that case, at the very least I can ponder on some ideas for neat things we could end up trying.

First, Varien (currently Lo'gosh) IIRC has escaped from Diremaul and if he follows his canon route should end up at Theramore with Jania (and Aegwynn, some of wow's early installment weirdness). Certainly no guarantee that encountering em would see us following him, but if nothing else it would be interesting and potentially could draw us into the whole Onyxia thing, which in turn would lead us to blackrock, where a lot of wow classic's stuff is located and is filled with potential dilemmas for Grok what with evil fire elementals below, crazed dwarves in the middle and the rogue blackrock clan/dragons above.

Second and a bit more out there, but simply Etrigg asking him to go to the plague lands to find an old friend of his, Tirion. Now of course the light hasn't exactly been a factor in the quest at all so far, but if nothing else Tirion is certainly in a position to sympathize with a lot of Grok's story (if not necessarily the level of devastation involved) + there's an interesting potential storyline involving his son Taelan, who is currently alive and in the Scarlet Crusade. In canon he dies after adventurers bring him to his senses about the Scarlet Crusade being a bunch of loonies, and is the impetus for Tirion deciding to reform the Silver Hand, but personally I think it'd be an interesting plot line for him not to die as well. + There's a lot of interesting stuff that could be worked out of the whole Mograine, Whitemane and the Scarlet Crusade situation, especially considering their current leader (Saidan Dathrohan) is actually the Nathrazim Balnazzar. I dunno the idea kinda snuck up on me, but I like it, but its certainly a big shift.

Nother alternative, the night elves or rather Broxigar, since I don't believe he's been sent into the past yet. Nother weird tangent that, but I recall a decent novel. While it would be neat to meet/learn from the closest equivalent to an Orcish doom marine, Broxigar's own conflicted feelings with his own people and culture mirror Grok's own to an extent, while the war of the ancients would be...interesting to experience if nothing else.

Of course these are all big things, big events involving big people so maybe waaaaay too much for what @FractiousDay has in mind at this stage, though I admit looking through the wikia to remind myself of things like this does remind me that despite all of WoW's pitfalls it does have some very interesting stories...
 
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Indeed, this seems like an interesting set of stories. I know little of it, and I wonder how much Grok'mash knows.
Of course, he can randomly hear something while drinking his sorrows at an inn ;)...
 
Indeed, this seems like an interesting set of stories. I know little of it, and I wonder how much Grok'mash knows.
Of course, he can randomly hear something while drinking his sorrows at an inn ;)...
mmm. I mean no inns required.

We can just be going to Theramore while wandering for whatever reason, we're certainly curious about magic, the Tirion stuff has a connection via Etrigg and ending up with Broxigar could be that instead of getting exiled we're ordered to do missions etc.

Also can I also just say that the timeline of WoW is utter ****ing nonsense.

WoW classic starts in year 25, Hijall happens in year 21 and Frozen Throne happened in between those points. Orgrimmar's foundations were only put down 3 years ago!*

*(Also if cycle of hatred is canon, then the burning blade corrupted one of Thrall's and Jania's advisors, a piece and they both knew of it including the involvement of a demon called Zmodlar...dumb name but that's more evidence against Feldad if he was involved.)

Legion happens 7 years after wow classic starts, its essentially 1 expansion per year, and given how each of these are meant to be damn near apocalyptic each and every time, with huge numbers of dead people per thing, I think the true end of Azeroth will come not from loosing a battle, but from the fact the planet's ****ing depopulated! Especially since the last ones have been all about Sylvanus trying to maximise casualties...sooo yeah.

Its relatively reasonable before that, to an extent, but I was overestimating it when I said that it was 12 years from wow classic to legion, but the events of battle for Azeroth which is currently the furthest point in the timeline are only 8 years away.

****ing hell.
 
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I only know Broxigor from being an absolute badass. True Killing a ton of Demons in the Nether and wounding Satan himself.
 
I only know Broxigor from being an absolute badass. True Killing a ton of Demons in the Nether and wounding Satan himself.
I call him the Orcish doom marine and its not too far off near as I can tell.

He literally jumped into the burning legion's portal and kept on killing anything that came near until he was standing on a literal mountain of corpses and Sargarus decided he needed to deal with him personally, with yeah as you said being one of only two mortals to ever wound Sargaras, the other being a king of a race that defied him and was obliterated for it.

Interestingly he's still remembered by the night elves (Tyrande and Malfurion especially) with her referencing him as what true orcish honour should be during Garrosh's trial and he becomes a symbol of legend to the broken trapped on Argus.

Long after the emerald flame took our home, the Legion took to open a gate to a new world. Never had they lusted for any conquest as much as this lush, primitive land.

Just as their armies set forth, a green-skinned warrior stepped through the gate. He wielded a single blade -- and roared a single cry for battle.

Mountains of flesh and bone grew as he carved through the demons' ranks. His defiance drew the attention of the Dark One -- who came to see his end.

The warrior struck but one blow before he fell, but it was never forgotten.
 
Varien (currently Lo'gosh) IIRC has escaped from Diremaul
A Ghost Wolf? The amphitheatre of Dire Maul shook with the cries, Lo'gosh! Lo'gosh! The Ghost Wolf slew all who opposed him and made his master Rehgar Earthfury wealthy indeed, but alas, while the gladiator's skill in arms matched that of the Ghost Wolf, so too did his rage and like Goldrinn, the champion was undone, slain in his last match against the Gordunni gladiators by the ogre Two-Heads.


Of course these are all big things, big events involving big people so maybe waaaaay too much for what @FractiousDay has in mind at this stage,
No these are good, I've got a few ideas myself but feel free to suggest anything anyone is particularly interested in doing.

On Brox specifically I'll say no. I've not read those books and I also don't like time travel stories like that as they don't tend to have an influence on the plot, which that one didn't as far as I recall.
then the burning blade corrupted one of Thrall's and Jania's advisors, a piece and they both knew of it including the involvement of a demon called Zmodlar...dumb name but that's more evidence against Feldad if he was involved
Lies and slander! Clearly they must have been renegades like that Darkstorm guy!
but from the fact the planet's ****ing depopulated! Especially since the last ones have been all about Sylvanus trying to maximise casualties...sooo yeah.
Yea it's a big problem, Even ignoring game stuff like lots of people dying in battles there's cataclysmic events every couple of years that should have utterly destroyed azeroth by now.
 
On Varien. Ah.

Well that's potentially very not good.

I really hope the king of stormwind didn't just crit fail himself to death, cause if so Onyxia is going to screw over a lot of people, but well I guess we'll see.

I've not read those books and I also don't like time travel stories like that as they don't tend to have an influence on the plot, which that one didn't as far as I recall.
Surprisingly it does.

Without the time travel
1. Illidan wouldn't have gotten the skills that allowed him to become interesting enough to have his eyes burned out as Rohnin mentored him in magic where the highborn didn't.
2. Sargarus would have arrived on Azeroth as Brox would have never injured and distracted him.
3. The Old Gods would have been released because they were manipulating events to create the dragon soul and use its power to release themselves, which was only prevented because Brox, Krasus and Malfurion managed to steal it first.
4. Oh and the elves wouldn't have recruited new allies due to xenophobia.

+ there are plenty of references to the events and characters scattered through out the game, for example the one who ends up freeing Malfurion from the Emerald Nightmare is Broxigar's niece, who he manages to draw to him, while his memory continues to impact the decisions of both him and Tyrande (just as an example.)

Yea it's a big problem, Even ignoring game stuff like lots of people dying in battles there's cataclysmic events every couple of years that should have utterly destroyed azeroth by now.
Frankly the constant stress and mental suffering feels like it should be enough that most of Azeroth's population should be so exhausted that they don't want to do anything due to grief and trauma.
 
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I'm kind of interested in heading off to theramore if we go into exile.

The Night Elves' realm may be more to our liking, but we'll probably already have a reputation for dealing with demonic stuff, so that might not appeal to them. Plus, we don't want to aggravate them when Thrall's trying to smooth out any peace deals with them.

At Theramore, we still trade with these guys, and I'm fairly certain they're rather metropolitan, so even if they don't like us, and we might get into some minor conflicts, we're not in terrible danger. Plus, living in a different environment like that might expand Grok's horizons, and if we can make any friends in the Alliance over there, that could open up certain opportunities in the eastern kingdoms.

That said, if we want to just be a wandering ronin in the desert, we can always go to the tauren or the trolls and help them out. Last I recall, the Darkspear are still dealing with Zalazane.
 
Lies and slander! Clearly they must have been renegades like that Darkstorm guy!
Missed this, but

"Ah yes, more renegades. Loyal members of the burning blade are truly so rare that we should go to great lengths to preserve them, perhaps some additional guards?"

Side note, musings but a possible reason for the blackrock to support could be because of Jub (indirectly.) But his faction of the clan were burning legion worshipping etc. so it maybe that enough survived and later joined Thrall's horde as infiltrators that they're helping Feldad out?
 
The March of Forneus 6
The March of Forneus 6

Despite your father's words you could hardly stay inside if something was going on and you rose, or rather attempted to rise, setting a blanket around your shoulders and another around your waist to hide your nakedness.

You can walk, with weakness and legs that ache and burn as you move. You try to keep upright through the stabs of pain as you struggle forward, peering through the gap between the fabrics of the tent out at the Cleft of Shadow.

Mercifully it seems the Cleft is largely intact. There's an enormous crack going up one of the rock walls and there are several new boulders but at least the walls haven't collapsed. What worries you more is the scene outside…

The Kor'kron, Thrall's bodyguards, are guarding the entrance of the Cleft and the way out into the wider city. One of their captains is walking away back to his warriors as your father stands with several attendants in the middle of the Cleft. The Shattered Hand clan, the Horde's intelligence and scouting force, seem to be absent from their usual dwellings on the other side of the Cleft and you only see your own people, though there seem to be several new faces.

Eventually your father makes back toward your hut and catches sight of you by the door.

"Foolish child!" is an unorthodox greeting when he sees you up and about but he hastens to help you back to your bed, then begins to pace back and forth, his hands working in the muscle forms of spells, a sort of mnemonic you know to aid concentration.

"You must remain here and regain your strength." he says as he paces and your eyes follow him across the room.

"Then tell me what's going on." you reply, though you also admit privately that he's probably right as your gut feels like you've strained what you assumed was healing muscle.

Your father paces a little more, then begins to speak, turning to face you, "When the battle was over Thrall and his shaman received… a sort of magical backlash I suppose, the failure of the ritual they tried, it exposed them to the Elements and-" he pauses, "It doesn't matter. The people looked for leaders and they found Saurfang and myself. Saurfang led the defences while I and the other warlocks used our power to assist the others. I conjured demons to dig through rubble or carry messages until the shaman of the city had regained their powers. It's been several weeks since you fell-"

That surprised you, but then you'd had no perception of time while you slept.

"But in that time many are still weak, though I don't know whether this is some spiritual malady or the general disturbance of the Elements since Forneus' march on the city. Eventually the shaman woke and they began to help as well, there were tensions. Saurfang and I worked well together and Thrall wanted to seal us all up here, but in the meantime several of the shaman have come to me to ask to join the clan. This created more tension, there was a misunderstanding, a death…"

Your father's eyes look regretful and he pauses in contemplation. In turn you consider his words. The shaman of the Horde, the older ones at least, had either turned to the Fel or lost their powers on Old Draenor. Some, you know, had considered this a mark of the Elements' weakness while others had been sorrowful and thought that they'd offended the Furies of Draenor in some manner, which given the growing prevalence of the Fel among the Horde they probably had. Could the same sort of thing have happened now? Could shaman have once again consider the source of their powers and decided to turn to the Fel after a public demonstration the likes of which just occurred when the warlocks of Orgrimmar triumphed and the shaman failed?

"It was unfortunate but in time the Warchief ordered us to be sealed up here and has had the Kor'kron watching us. Many times he's tried to call me out and I've refused as I have no doubt he means to do to our clan what Doomhammer did to the Shadow Council."

Could it be so? You felt a coldness slip over you as you look at your father, still agitated and considering. If your father was making the comparisons others must be as well, but this was forty years of history! Could one day recall such memories of a Horde long gone, even a world away?

But on the other hand, was Thrall not merely Orgrim Doomhammer come again? The current Warchief had been mentored by Doomhammer, indeed he wore Doomhammer's armour, bore his eponymous weapon, practiced and maintained his policies. If you father had used the same spell Gul'dan had once, occupied the position Gul'dan did as Elder Warlock of the Horde, what did it really matter whether the great Elemental that threatened the Orcish people was Cyrukh of Draenor or Forneus of Azeroth?

"What happens now?" you ask and your father breaks out of his trance.

"The Warchief has summoned me several times. He refused to say what he wanted at first and I refused so Saurfang came and gave various promises which I didn't believe… If I leave this place they'll strike, whether they strike here while I'm away or they seek to get me on my own is irrelevant. I have delayed so far, I've moved our people underground through the tunnels and the secret ways that remain open after the earthquakes but my excuse was always that you were still injured and I refused to leave you, Thrall could hardly forsake his honour so publicly by forcing the issue. Now though they know you're awake and I guess they'll use this against us."

"How?"

Neeru comes to kneel by your bed and cups your face with one mutated hand "My son your fascination with honour blinds you. Do you remember when you returned to the city? How the Warchief had his spies waiting for you? How he used you? He knows you hold honour dear to your heart, he will call for you and you'll go. He knows I'll follow to protect you and in that time when we're out of the Cleft he'll make his move."

But you shake your head, "I cannot believe this. I can't."

"Thrall wears a mask of honour only to deceive you. He claims all dishonourable acts are those of renegades and disavows and exiles those who commits them, pretending he doesn't know about them. You should ask that girl you know in the Shattered Hand next time you see her, ask her how her clan finds employment in these times."

"You've always seen conspiracies in the shadows and you've always warned me against the Warchief. The shaman are still weak from what you say, what defence will be left if he tries to strike at you?"

Your father's eyes burn, "I have seen it before. I was there the last time! You know this, don't pretend it can't happen."

Once again you find yourself before a monolith of tradition and history. Previously the issue was whether the Blademasters could be raised from their slow but inevitable decline, now you find yourself facing the history of Fel within the Horde and the activities of orcs who've been dead longer than you've been alive.

Unbidden the words of Akinos come to you, the Blademaster's teachings, the importance of the centre and balance in both stances of swordsmanship and philosophy. The return to basic principles.

"I will not be a coward." you say, "If I am summoned I must go."

"I will stop you."

"You can try, you know I'll just come back, even if you send me off with the others into the caves. I cannot accept the dishonour of desertion to go and hide in some hole, to be pursued wherever we go, which we surely will be if the Warchief is so opposed as you claim. We'll meet him publically, refute whatever claims he puts forward. Together!"

You realise with discomfort that the report Scorn and Kartha will have given the Warchief is likely to confirm his suspicions, which aren't entirely wrong. Though the centaur bear much of the responsibility over the events of the Battle of Dreadmist Peak, the elders of the Burning Blade had indeed been torturing the Elements for years for their own purposes and you'd even followed in their footsteps to an extent, overcoming Proudpeak and trying to master him. You know your father had chafed under Thrall's ban on the Fel, particularly the Warchief's prohibition on the summoning of powerful demons. Clearly your clan had routinely violated the Warchief's edicts if they were able to summon an Ur'zul with such alacrity.

Could Thrall's actions now, the sealing of the Cleft's exit, the demands for your father to attend him, could these simply be political expediency backed by moral outrage as your father's narrative suggests? Is your father wrong, blinded by the events of his youth? What are the Warchief's intentions toward the clan?

You hardly spare a thought for yourself in all of this, it's bigger than you now.

The tent's cloth twitches again and the shadow returns.

Your fathers' head moves quickly to meet it as whispers in the Fel tongue fill the structure, then he turns back to you.

"Nazgrel is here. It is time."
 
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Alright, that clears up a lot, but opens new questions.

First impressions are that the key thing comes down to who knows what and who suspects what.

Feldad would not be nearly as worried as he is if he didn't think Thrall knew more than he's letting on which Grok has thankfully picked up on, but by similar metric something is staying Thrall's hand.

Despite Feldad's statement that its going to be shadow council 2.0 Doomhammer very much did not wait for permission before cracking their skulls open, he certainly would not have been dissuaded by something as minor as a child in a coma.

My guess is that Thrall is either waiting to hear our side of the story, doesn't feel he has enough evidence, wants to separate the "traitorous" blade from the not that, or some combination of the two.

Nazgrel's a good choice to send in that context I suppose.

Its also a decent sign of his paranoia that he's refusing to believe Saurfang. Thrall is one thing, but Saurfang's meant to be solid as a rock in most areas. mmm I wonder what promises were made that he'd still refuse.

It also explains why the shattered hand and bleeding hollow are with him, since they live in the Cleft and are stuck in it as well.
 
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It also explains why the shattered hand and bleeding hollow are with him, since they live in the Cleft and are stuck in it as well.
just to be specific, they're gone actually
The Shattered Hand clan, the Horde's intelligence and scouting force, seem to be absent from their usual dwellings on the other side of the Cleft and you only see your own people, though there seem to be several new faces.

Implication being thrall has allowed others to leave but not the BB
 
Hrrrm...
Doomhammer wouldn't wait, and given how Thrall ended up fighting the Fel Orcs to capture Hellscream I don't doubt he'd take a more...Proactive approach then this waiting, frankly.
As for my thoughts on Grok's position?
Personally, my angle would be I am entirely too young to have this on MY shoulders. On the one hand, Shamanism has been black-marked, AGAIN. On the other hand, If I wish to be like the Blademasters, like Akinos, I will need to repair the damage I have done, at least in their eyes. But I also need to make reparations for the disaster I contributed to the Horde. Yet...To make those reparations I must learn, and I must be strong to do this. And thus opens the arguement for Fel. More importantly? Fel, and Shamanism, CAN work together. I've seen it, and we ALL know about it with the Shadow Council. There is room for the two to work together, and are there not enemies to apply them too? Even ignoring the tenous peace with the Alliance, there are Quillboar to contend with, Centaur to fight against.
But, which path?...
Why only ONE path?...My Father said to me, once, that instead of a single Blademaster, a Warchief can call upon a band of warriors, a group of assassins. And I can indeed say the Blademasters are split. Some have stayed, loyal to the Horde. Others wander, unwilling to give up seeking the Breath of Eternity, which is to seek war and conflict, to hone their skills.
The Burning Blade turned away from the Elements to seek the strength of Fel. If I were to demand we stop practicing such magics, even as Chief, I would split the Burning Blade yet again, sending the Warlocks that came to us scattering about, and who knows what they would do, without the need to have the approval of anyone save themselves?
No. The Burning Blade may be considered distasteful, but to turn our backs on Fel would be to unleash a hundred Darkstorm upon Azeroth. Of this, I am certain.
 
Though the centaur beat much of the responsibility over the events of the Battle of Dreadmist Peak, the elders of the Burning Blade had indeed be torturing the Elements for years for their own purposes and you'd even followed in their footsteps to an extent, overcoming Proudpeak and trying to master him. You know your father had chafted under Thrall's soft ban on the Fel, particularly the Warchief's prohibition on the summoning of powerful demons.
"bear", "chafed"

Heh. For all that he allegedly lacks strength, Grok sure smashes through the plans of others a lot.
 
just to be specific, they're gone actually


Implication being thrall has allowed others to leave but not the BB
Of course, but the implication the other way is that either they get out of their home, or they might get caught in the middle of a purge.

Either way I doubt they've much to be happy about with the situation.

No. The Burning Blade may be considered distasteful, but to turn our backs on Fel would be to unleash a hundred Darkstorm upon Azeroth. Of this, I am certain.
The problem with that are threefold.

1. The burning blade has too many traitors (the numbers are extremely high even to Grok IC). When combined with Grok putting two and two together on how quickly they were able to summon up an extremely powerful demon, the fact his father has implied out right that either Grok was in danger of being assassinated by the elders, or he was going to assassinate them, Darkstorm's implications and more I think its fair to say that the Burning Blade already has a bit of a darkstorm problem.
2. Fel is the magic of demons, it is highly addictive has extremely deleterious impacts on one's mental state which are excessive in terms of their scale and severity upon one's mental state. As I said ages ago its one thing if Drudaism causes you to want to hibernate, but it doesn't increase one's level of anger to the point of lashing out randomly. Both are conditions that need to be managed, but one is much more dangerous for you and everyone around you.
3. The damage to the Horde's reputation from having the fel users like this.

As far as I can tell the only way for there to be a solution that keeps both the Burning Blade with the Fel and satisfies most parties is if the Blade accepts a level of oversight essentially unheard of in an Orcish clan, while simultaneously being entrusted with a huge amount of trust.

In essence turn the blade into the clan who have the sole authority to practise fel magic. Anyone who wants to learn has to join it, anyone who leaves the clan and has learnt it has to have their ability to do so sealed, that kinda thing. Lots of oversight, (in my very paranoid brain out and out scrapping the orc's entire fel tradition to start afresh, since its descended from Gul'dan so already a bad sign, but by extension is only a step removed from Kil'jaden and two from Sargarus himself. Would be interesting to see what someone trying to make fel from the ground up would be like.)

I'll admit I'm a paranoid soul in general though and would prefer at least some degree of oversight on anyone who is able to far fire out their arse.

we ALL know about it with the Shadow Council.
That's not really the same thing though? The Shadow Council had Shamen members, but they were ex shamen.

The same question can be said in reverse why only 2?

Just off the top of my head there are 4 paths of magic the orcs (although not the horde over all) knows nothing about
1. Arcane.
2. Light.
3. Drudaism
4. Necromancy.

Which run the gamut from mostly beneficial to potentially as dangerous as fel.

Near as I can tell the horde hasn't even tried to investigate these options yet.
 
off the top of my head there are 4 paths of magic the orcs (although not the horde over all) knows nothing about
1. Arcane.
2. Light.
3. Drudaism
4. Necromancy.
It's iffy on some of these, but broadly yea.

Arcane and light they will know about from fighting humans and Draenei, and particularly arcane from the ogres. The blademasters are implied to use arcane but it's never said how

Druidism sure, but the orcs also will have encountered a time least some of the evergrowth on draenor and there are likely druids among the arrakoa etc so the orcs will at least know of them

Necromancy kinda, Guldan has his necrolytes and invented the DKs but it wasnt the same sort KelTHuzad was doing for example

You can add monk stuff there too
 
It's iffy on some of these, but broadly yea.

Arcane and light they will know about from fighting humans and Draenei, and particularly arcane from the ogres. The blademasters are implied to use arcane but it's never said how

Druidism sure, but the orcs also will have encountered a time least some of the evergrowth on draenor and there are likely druids among the arrakoa etc so the orcs will at least know of them

Necromancy kinda, Guldan has his necrolytes and invented the DKs but it wasnt the same sort KelTHuzad was doing for example

You can add monk stuff there too
What I meant was in the sense of being able to practise them. For sure they know of them to varying degrees, Druids from the Tauren/Night Elves for example.

But there's a massive difference there on being able to actually use any of them in a meaningful capacity. ATM the only users of the light at all seem to be a limited number of trolls and forsaken and so on.

And yeah, necromancy they're doing is fel necromancy* which seems to be much less efficient at it than decay based stuff.
*(For example during the war of the ancients Ronan encounters some Nathrazim using it and remarks that its like a protoscourge. Much less efficient and requires far more effort on the part of the casters to keep the zombies running compared to the scourge's which can basically keep everything running passively once cast etc.)

In general Fel seems to do best with living souls when engaging in that sorta stuff, even if it can be wacked in the right direction. Gul'dan's death knights after all was more shuffling the souls of his fellow warlocks into new containers after all.
 
I'd really rather avoid anything to do with Fel magic at this point, nothing good has come out of the Fel for us, even the successful defense of Orgrimmar was only needed because the Centaurs were able to rouse a duke of earth, which they were only able I suspect because the burning blade was tormenting the elements for so long....you know with the Fel. Fel and Shamanism clearly do not work together and to try and make them is to....well to do what we did which as we've seen is very much NOT a good idea.
 
The March of Forneus 7
The March of Forneus 7

Nazgrel is dressed in his full regalia, the rich pelt of a wolf across his shoulders, the snarling, fanged face above his own as stand surrounded by his warriors, his axe on his shoulder. Sesk and Ishi stand before him, barring the way, the others in the Cleft readying themselves…

"Young warrior." Nazgrel says, his voice easily carrying across the Cleft, "The Warchief would hear your report. Come."

The moment is tense and further words seem unnecessary. With a look at your father, then to the rest of your clan you make the first step forward.

You feel a hand on your shoulder and you look back into your father's eyes.

"I must… I must."

The dispute is larger than you, Nazgrel's even tone betrays that at least and the general looked more to your father than you, clearly expecting what was to come. It is not within you to refuse such an order, you are bound by honour.

His lips curl but he steps forward as well, giving swift orders to several of the onlookers in the demon tongue. But it seems as if your father was right because as soon as he falls into step behind you the Kor'kron close in, cutting off any escape from the rear as you go forward. If Nazgrel merely wanted a report he might have questioned you in the Cleft of Shadow, or perhaps conveyed your words back to Thrall but instead you're being led through Orgrimmar.

You hear a rasp of a sword unsheathing, metal on leather behind you and look back, catching sight of Sesk and Ishi standing across from the Kor'kron still guarding the Cleft. Sesk is sneering, his sword on his shoulder, the Fel in his eyes burning as he sizes up to the guards.

You don't feel in especial danger, the mood of Nazgrel is formal rather than hostile, but you still fear the journey. Even if your father's apprehensions are overblown, why the summons like this? Why the armed escort? You didn't escort heroes like this, and you didn't talk with villains. This was how you escorted prisoners…

The rocky walls that made up the many canyons of Orgrimmar are ruined and several times you pass by immense heaps of stone from the devastation of the battle. Even now, weeks after the event there are Orcs digging in the rubble, whether to retrieve the corpses of any who had perished or whether simply to clear the detritus away, you don't know. Almost no building is left standing and the few permanent structures of wood and stone in the city have been thrown down. Orgrimmar had become a city of tents and leaning walls, beams from one house taken to prop up another, canopies spread across the canyons and hunched dwellings established in the shadow of the largest boulders.

While you're heartened to see your people rebuilding, the scale of the destruction is enormous. You pass great towers and edifices which have entirely fallen away and sometimes you step over mortared brickwork lying cracked on the ground or have to pass around some other obstacle.

You weren't being led to the Valley of Wisdom, the home of Grommash Hold and the Warchief's seat, that was plain, instead you were taken by circuitous routes through the city, perhaps due to the destruction? Many people stopped to watch as Nazgrel and his Frostwolves led you and it all had the feeling of a pig being led to the slaughterhouse. There were neither cries nor cheers, the people seemed apprehensive, curious, but uncertain.

"Where are we going?" you speak quietly to your father.

"The Valley of Strength." he replies, equally quietly, "Forneus fell there, it is suitable enough for such a...spectacle."

As you walked you perceived a darkness to fall and out of the corner of your eyes you see your father's hands working in spell forms again, his lips moving in whispers. You grew cold as shadows shrouded you, the wispy demons you'd seen reporting to your father previously surrounding you with the lightest of pressures on your shoulders like a black mantle. He was taking away his own protections to weave them around you instead. He fears for you, you know that well enough despite his rough sort of love... will he have enough power to protect himself?

Then the canyon opens out into the Valley of Strength. This had been the entrance of Orgrimmar once, the central thoroughfare and valley to the rest of the canyon-city. Now you saw its new form. Whereas previously the valley had been quite flat, a small river running through it and the slopes up to the cliffs above covered in layers of dwellings, you seen now that the march of Forneus has caused just as much destruction here as elsewhere. There is now a canyon within a canyon. An enormous crack reaches down through the earth, its jagged edge running along the base of the valley, a vast deep crevice, a waterfall flowing into it and a dull roar echoing from the bottom. It's as if the valley has become one massive arena and apprehension weighs in your stomach as you walk forward, down into the valley, around massive boulders and over small bridges that have been put up over the cracks in the earth leading to the new chasm.

Thrall was once a gladiator and he now sits on a throne above an arena, looking down into the depths, banners of the Horde above him, surrounded by wolf-pelted Frostwolves and his own riding warg at the side of his throne. You look around at the slopes and all the clans of the Horde are there, the banners of the Frostwolves, Blackrock and Warsong most prominent, but you see many others of clans both greater and small and Orcs from all across the Horde's society, though few of any of the clans which might be more friendly to your own.

Nazgrel leads you to the foot of the throne, the wrecked slopes of the valley forming a sort of bowl like a court with the Warchief as solemn judge.

"Say nothing." your father murmurs, his hands going still at the scrutiny of the collected shaman.

Thrall's eyes briefly flit toward you, then settle on your father.

"I have called you here to speak of history." the Warchief begins, "First I will speak, then you," he points at your father, "will respond."

The order, Thrall's accusatory finger, the position of superiority where you father stands in the arena and Thrall sits above him, even the obvious audience the Warchief has assembled all contribute to your father's anger and he seethes beside you, fists clenched. What can Neeru do but stay silent and wait? Shouting up at the Warchief would hardly be seemly and you find yourself frowning at the dishonourable behaviour, what was such a set up meant to produce but anger?

"I appeal to you, my people." Thrall begins, standing before the throng, "Great tragedies have befallen us recently, great sorrow… a time to reflect." the words are slow, sonorous, easily carrying across the arena, "We have struggled in this land, struggled to survive, to thrive, struggled to live in peace, to have lives of glory without dishonour. Again and again we have triumphed, carved out a place for our people in this savage land, but an old wound holds us back."

The Warchief continues his oration, his metaphors simple and direct, clearly understandable to his audience. Many warriors could remember an infection or a festering injury, still more were veterans of many battles and remembered their mistakes when their scars ached on cold nights. Medicine was crude among your people and it had been the experience of internment and the learning of Thrall himself that had brought some advancements from Human herblore to the art of sewing wounds.

"An infection fells neither beast nor warrior immediately. It is less sure than a thrust to the heart, less savage than claws or teeth, but in the end it is disease and corruption that kills more than battle itself!"

Thrall likens the Horde to a family, speaking of a contagion spreading through from brother to brother till the community itself is outwardly twisted and warped to reflect the inner corruption.

"After the battle I sought the guidance of the Spirits." Thrall speaks, arm reaching down toward the chasm below, "I climbed down, down into the bowels of the earth. There I meditated for three days and nights. Truth has come to me in dreams… I dreamt I held a fiery sword, that I cut gouges in the land and left all that opposed me cracked and burnt. It was a sword of greatness, a sword of such power that it destroys our enemies, but when I stood alone among the ashes and set the sword down I found my own hand burning."

If the audience had been different, if it had been other than the chief of the Burning Blade on trial it might have been thought that Thrall refered to some other issue. But it is your father on trial, your clan. Thrall's metaphors are unsubtle, direct enough that everyone should know what he refers to, yet in the veneer of poetry he uses, his statements of dreams and portents, the Warchief is able to avoid directly accusing your father of anything, yet still managing to further inflame Neeru's anger.

"The greatest threat is the one from within. Only through the removal of the corruption within our society can there finally find peace in our home. How intricate a web we can weave when motivated by greed and power! The hidden agendas, the corruption, all of it will become clear. O my people! Open your eyes and you will find yourself in the midst of a war you never knew existed."

Thrall's gestures have become more bellicose, his oratory louder, playing off the crowd who cry out as he speaks. The Warchief plays his audience well, for after all, had his human once-master Blackmoore not trained the orc as a general and leader? The story of Thrall's childhood was well known among the Horde and it seems he had been taught more than just the ways of battle.

The speech grows ever louder, the reactions of the crowd encouraging, only the Frostwolf shaman surrounding the Warchief remaining unmoved, their eyes on your father as he seethes, hands clenched, hunched forward as if to grapple with his opponent, eyes bright with the Fel.

And as you stand there between the two figures, Warchief and father, shaman and warlock, you understand Thrall's strategy…

The march of Forneus, the destruction of the newly established capital, your father's victory, they'd all shaken the Warchief's legitimacy, for what was the worth of such a leader if they couldn't protect their people? The Elements had risen up and smashed the city that bore Orgrim Doomhammer's name, and the inheritor of that weapon had been equally brought down, retreating from battle while the supposedly evil warlocks of the Burning Blade had stood against Forneus and cast him back down to Deepholme.

There were no actions Thrall could take to restore that legitimacy instantly, yet to him it was essential to the long term success of his policies (and indeed the future of his people), that he quickly took back the mantle of leadership. Of all things the most damaging was the idea that the shamans of the Horde could begin to turn again to the Fel, and you knew certain clans like the Bleeding Hollow and Blackrock held far different views on the Elements than the Frostwolf orthodoxy that Thrall espoused.

Thrall had been the first new shaman in a generation, the first orc to touch the Elements in many years and as such he stood as both the Elder Shaman and the Warchief of the Horde, an unprecedented position which held great power, yet also great vulnerability. It was beyond his purview to simply command the shaman of other tribes to follow his wishes and indeed while he had maintained many of Doomhammer's policies he'd also relaxed some. Thrall had allowed cultural variation to flourish in an attempt at reviving the old clan structures of Draenor that were fading away in this new Horde, but that also meant permitting the Fel and warlocks to act openly, though with certain restrictions.

Yet Thrall's conciliatory attitude had also meant he was frequently disobeyed. Warriors, even loyal ones like Vark, routinely made war on their own initiative, such as your blood-brother's actions against the Kul Tirans, while you knew your clan had habitually violated the restrictions on the use of the Fel, such as in the activities of the elders of Dreadmist.

Thus the Warchief's strategy now. It was insidious… Your father had feared direct confrontation and a decimation the likes of which Doomhammer had perpetrated on the Shadow Council, yet instead Thrall had outdone your father in subtlety. Thrall was deliberately enraging your father, deliberately playing on his fears. It was well known that your father was young for a warlock, he hadn't been a part of the Shadow Council and had survived Doomhammer's purge, and now Thrall must know how his summons would appear, even sending Nazgrel, your previous superior, to summon you, again knowing from your previous interactions that your overbearing father would follow to protect you. Thrall had previously tried to chip away at your father's legitimacy by using your ambition, you had seen it on your first day back in Orgrimmar, now the same thing was happening again.

For a moment the world stills and it's as if the future plays out in front of you. You know what will happen. You feel sick to your stomach, the feeling of dread when you see a sword heading toward you but know you can't block it in time.

Thrall would continue his oratory, stoking your father's anger with insults, whether in the initial situation like positioning himself above the two of you on his throne, or in his metaphors, accusing the modern Burning Blade of perpetuating the corruption and evil of the Shadow Council, striking at the Horde from within. Thrall would position himself as Doomhammer, standing for the old ways and taking vengeance against the warlocks for their deception just as Doomhammer had.

It would depend on what exactly Thrall had planned, but you could see several results of this confrontation, ever more complex, difficulty and fraught with danger as a duel. Firstly, Thrall might publicly disparage your father's leadership, compare him directly to the corrupting influence of Gul'dan, call for his arrest or execution, which while Thrall himself would be disinclined to carry out immediately, might lay the groundwork for such a purge as Doomhammer carried out. Second, Thrall could present what proofs he had of your clan's offenses and call for the Burning Blade's dissolution or potentially throw his social capital behind some other figure as clan chief, perhaps one of the well-respected Blademasters, likely causing a schism between the different factions of your clan. Third, Thrall might note the inherently destructive nature of the Fel and reinstate Doomhammer's ban on it, eroding your father's legitimacy and again setting up the necessary conditions to purge the warlocks completely, after all, the Cleft was already guarded by Thrall's own forces…

Your father, prideful, paranoid, suspicious, would respond poorly at best to any of the possibilities. If he was removed he'd lash out, trying to secure himself against the perceived, and possibly real, threat of the Warchief. It was likely Neeru's actions and reactions would push Thrall further into thinking the Burning Blade were an enemy rather than an asset, such as the move of your people into the secret ways and caverns beneath the city. You weren't threatened with civil war, not yet, Thrall's assembly and indirect strategy of confrontation saw to that…

But even if that wasn't the intention, a bloody future might be ahead in any case. You'd never been told what exactly lay in Desolace, what the remainder of your clan not in Orgrimmar were doing there but you could guess. If the elders at Dreadmist were tormenting the Elements and summoning demons, what more could your clan be doing 'off east' further away from Thrall's gaze? If the Burning Blade were dissolved and abjured would your father seek refuge at Thunder Axe Fortress? Would the warlocks of the Horde slip further into demonic magics, further into corruption without the mitigating influence and social acceptability of the Burning Blade and the prestige of the clan's position? You could see it now, a thousand Darkstorms would spring up, each warlock heading off on their own, now absent your father's oversight, a thousand mutated, red skinned, burning eyed orcs skulking in caves, ambushing caravans and calling down demons to defend them when discovered and rooted out.

Even the Blademasters would decline. You had little time for selfish dreams but you could imagine the remaining wanderers and battleseekers falling further into their malaise, their ancient clan destroyed and many of its remaining secrets lost, ancient learning, scrolls and tomes like the one you'd once owned now destroyed or worse, confiscated and the traditions of your people let out for the Horde's shaman to pour over and marvel at.

As Thrall continued to speak you could see the destruction of your people. Thrall didn't intend to strike the first blow and risk the public opinion turning on him. Instead he relied on cultural memory and your father's stubbornness. The Warchief had set the stage, the pieces moved on their own…

Thrall knew of your clan's disobedience and could simply use the reports of Kartha or Scorn, rich in detail of the horrors the elders had called up during that day of blood against the Kolkar. Indeed, if you had decided to come to warn the city yourself would that have even made the situation worse? What impression could the Warchief have formed from your testimony, could you have improved the situation or would the report of the clan heir merely have caused further problems?

The blade comes down upon you, but in that moment you feel your sword at your side, you feel it's weight, you feel a hilt you can grasp.

The testimony of the clan heir…

You look over at your father, then up to the Warchief, a choice clear before you:

[ ] Remain silent
Obey your father's initial command, do nothing and work as you have before, a loyal orc, a loyal son, a loyal member of the Horde. Accept the Warchief's judgement and the events as they progress. Without intervention the events you fear will play out, your father's personality colliding with the Warchief's strategy. Your clan won't fall this day, but this is the thrust that will propel your people into a downward spiral which may lead, in time, to their destruction.

[ ] The Lie of Honour
Lie. You ultimately aren't responsible for all the events of the past few weeks, the issues go back years, even generations. Yet now you could step forward and take responsibility. You were the commander at Dreadmist Peak, tell the assembly that you ordered the demon to be summoned, tell them that you did it for the Horde, emphasise the destruction of the Kolkar, an enemy of your people for years. Turn Thrall's strategy back on him, say that all the Burning Blade has done has been for the greater glory and security of the Horde. Draw the attention of the assembly to you and away from your father, no doubt bringing judgement down on you and falling on your own sword for the good of the clan, and in truth, the wider Horde. This strategy will undermine Thrall's rhetoric, but at least it will maintain the Burning Blade...



So now we have the true confrontation of the arc, the culmination of the themes of agency and obligation, showing that while yes you are blown to and fro by political machinations and cultural history greater than yourself, you can still influence events at key points. Voting is open because if I put a moratorium on it it's night time for most of the people who read this now so it'll have elapsed by morning anyway. Discussion is highly encouraged, indeed mandatory given this choice will determine and influence many events and circumstances in future. Questions and also encouraged so I can clarify (or not as I choose) any points in edits to the chapter.
 
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I would have thought that there would have been a third option. That we could tell the truth and accept the warchief's judgment as is.


In regards to the Lie option, I fear that not only would this undermine any of Thrall's diplomatic efforts for peace, but that it will only lead us into war with the alliance, and then we'd just be repeating WoW but on a more accelerated time scale.

the Silent option may be more in line with the outcome some of us may be going for. Though I personally don't mind reducing the practice of Fel magics, I wonder how many voters here are interested in keeping it to some degree as a means of study. If that is the case, we should say something to Thrall to convince him that the Clan may require something akin to oversight.
 
mmm...

I take it there can be no write-in at this stage?

I can see some potential pathways out of this, but ATM I'm not sure if this is even allowed.*

@FractiousDay
1. As far as questions go, my first is what evidence does Thrall have or at least we think he does.
2. With lie as presented is it safe to assume if we speak up we're getting booted out no matter what, either by fel dad for disobeying at such a pivotal moment or by Thrall for taking credit for it.

*ATM I think the appropriate course of action wouldn't be to lay the blame on Thrall by proxy, but instead to place it on the horde's lack of information. Thrall and his adviser's were being proactive, that's why this fiasco happened in the first place, the issue was that they saw an increase in Kolkar attacks, not that the Kolkar had organised into a full on war effort, nor that the Kolkar even had the possibility of summoning something like Forneas in the first place.

Mistakes were made at numerous levels, but if the Horde and Thrall by extension want to solve the issues, then what we need is to know more, about both our enemies and especially our allies, so that when the time comes the horde's individual elements work together and can support one another when things backfire.

An additional line of attack is emphasising how the "old" horde the remnants of Gul'dan's direct corruption like Jub are still working to undermine and drag the Orcs back down and will go to any lengths to kill those they see as "traitors" in their clans.

That we could tell the truth and accept the warchief's judgment as is.
I'd agree, my question would be what does that change? Arguably it only reinforces the view that the Burning Blade are responsible.

Two other ideas.

Confront: AKA do what fel dad is going to do, the key difference is we're not him. Its quite different to lie since we'd essentially be calling the old man out. If he has suspicions of the burning blade then come out and say them, don't hide behind implication. Grok at least is willing to accept his judgement for our crimes against the horde.

Comfort: AKA remind fel dad we're here to help him keep control of his emotions.
 
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[] Remain silent
After this? We gather what we can of Father's creations, findings, knowledge, and we see if we can find any non-Forsaken interested in keeping the knowledge, what if it Thrall is willing to tolerate keeping around. And if we cannot...
Well. It'd take some work, building on what Thrall has done here, but emphasis that this, turning orc against orc is how to defeat the Fel. Turn Fel against Fel, and it destroys itself. Dark Shamanism defeated regular Shamanism, but with time, and further building, perhaps we can ensure that Shamanism will stand strong.
...Goodbye, Father.
...Warchief? The battle is now over. The Burning blade is humbled...But we will continue, under the Horde.
EDIT: Removed vote, I should think on this more. Also...
I can't help but imagine blocking this out: I picture Grok reaching for his father, before FelDad's Temper gets the best of him, and he yells/shoots a felblast at Thrall, who responds accordingly, a shout to have him exiled, or if the felblast, jumping down and DOOMHAMMER!
At which point he turns to us and apologies, Grok makes eye contact...Then closes his eyes and bows, Blademaster style, before leaving.
 
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