Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Well that's ominous.
Da build up is killing me
Also Grok is sufferin.
Da build up is killing me
Also Grok is sufferin.
As I recall what that plan called for was wandering samurai magic ork
This was noted by the winning vote back in chargen 3. You got a better weapon and the Tome, both of which have been essential to your successes, and this was balanced by your honourbound nature and the hunter that's been following you about. I compared the later to a lich ganking you and although at the time I didn't have any particular idea of what it would be it was always going to come up.I feel like the problem is, we were too ambitious in Chargen.
Like what was WANTED was a conflicted orc, but uhh. well.
Looking back in hindsight I feel like we bit off WAY more then we could chew and the horde suffered dearly for our hubris.
Like, Our perks got eaten by the maluses consuming them.
This will become more relevant in like 2 updates but it depends who exactly is exiling you...However, being kicked out is a death sentence, while remaining likely means defacto enslavement.
Lets be honest water probably hates us too.
Thing is I do find it hard to find quests (at least long-running ones) that are like that.* The reason you hate em is the same reason people tend to stop playing them after all so either there's something else that keeps people coming back or they die off. A feeling of empowerment will only keep ya coming back for so long then it becomes le snore fest.Grok's moping because he's small and his feelings of inadequacy provide character, which is exactly as I wanted it because I hated the quests where the MC is just a cardboard box for 60 people to drive about, never really caring about anything and just sort of motoring along.
Yeah, but our blood-brother is likely a better one (well axeman, but the point stands) and we've managed to lock the only magic we really had developed.Keep in mind you are an excellent swordsman, and pretty decent in some other areas
To add to this, neither feel like they contributed much to our success, if anything they did more to our major **** ups. Before we managed to destroy it the first time I did not feel the sword added much to our success at all and our destruction of it taught us...what? A technique that was worse on all possible levels and made a worse weapon we've also destroyed?You got a better weapon and the Tome, both of which have been essential to your successes
I will note that in orcish society both of those are effectively maluses. Doesn't matter if you have the inclination if it makes you look weak in the eyes of others, or in Grok's case doubles down and compounds what they see as his inherent weakness.
Basically does Feldad kick us out, does Thrall kick us out, or do we kick ourselves out.This will become more relevant in like 2 updates but it depends who exactly is exiling you...
I'd rather not. That way lies damnation.At this point, I say we embrace it. We've already burnt all the other bridges to study and it'd at least get us an in with the rest of the Clan (if we're not exiled that is). Honestly, at this point, I'd be surprised if we get any other options beyond being an exile, unless something particularly out of the usual happens.
I mean, out of everything that happens, we're basically the primary ones at fault for the rise of the elemental, and all our attempts to stop it failed miserably. If anyone is going to be pinned with the overall blame for what happened, it's probably us.
Yeah, if anything this would probably be the breaking point of Fel for Grok. We saw what happens with Fel, no matter the reason at the time it'll always lead to Bad End.I'd rather not. That way lies damnation.
If anything, we've seen the tampering and blind eye turned to it has led to shit getting really bad as it is. Elementals don't like us and took it out on the capital because of it, we saw it pulling an abomination together out of corpses, plus the not so great history of it leading to two bloody wars and the damnation of our race.
After all that, I don't think Grok's going to want anything to do with it.
Thrall or Feldad not kicking us out might sting even more. Especially if Grok sees it as a pity stay of judgement. Then again, if they explicitly say that it's Grok's way of making things right it could lead to a better way.Basically does Feldad kick us out, does Thrall kick us out, or do we kick ourselves out.
There are implications Grok can pick up on no matter how its done.Thrall or Feldad not kicking us out might sting even more. Especially if Grok sees it as a pity stay of judgement. Then again, if they explicitly say that it's Grok's way of making things right it could lead to a better way.
Personally I feel like this is a great point for Grok to go all in with the Anti Fel mindset, commit wholly to trying to do Shamanism right this time and begin penitence.
After all that, I don't think Grok's going to want anything to do with it.
I mean I can see perfectly IC reasons for why we'd go for the full fel option, particularly in light of fel dad pulling a Gul'dan. There's a reason that worked in canon, although IC Grok hopefully realises that with the history fel has its a poisoned chalice. OOC I'd be slighly more interested if it wasn't essentially Dhar and there was even a single important warlock character who wasn't also a near embodiment of pure evil.At this point, I say we embrace it. We've already burnt all the other bridges to study and it'd at least get us an in with the rest of the Clan (if we're not exiled that is). Honestly, at this point, I'd be surprised if we get any other options beyond being an exile, unless something particularly out of the usual happens.
mmm...I mean, out of everything that happens, we're basically the primary ones at fault for the rise of the elemental, and all our attempts to stop it failed miserably. If anyone is going to be pinned with the overall blame for what happened, it's probably us.
"Set yourself against the Kolkar. Of all the centaur tribes they are the ones who've menaced us the most, sending raiding parties against us and even crossing the river, they stream through the passes and although we kill hundreds of them more slip past us. They congregate around the various oases, find them and kill them if you can."
Like Harry Dresden, Grok'mash could get a grumpy
They wanted to summon him while attacking Orgrimmar. Unfortunately it worked out the same way, but the tragedy of hundreds of centaurs sacrificing themselves to erase the Orcs from Azeroth was not something that could be predicted.At risk of being a bit too easy on Grok one has to remember that it was the Kolkar that summoned him and while they may have done it earlier than anticipated I believe they'd always intended too. The difference is that they'd wanted to do it while also attacking Orgrimmar. Furthermore despite impressions Forneaus seemed to give zero shits about Proudpeak
I mean who knows. Maybe if we were a better shaman we might have known, but well...we're not.Frankly, I scarcely find reasons for punishment or exile, lol. Forneus didn't give a crap about Proudpeak, so we were just at the wrong place at the wrong time
GoblinLike Harry Dresden, Grok'mash could get a grumpyWizardOrc named Don'ald Mor'gan watching our every move. But there is no reason to go that way, exile is more likely.
However, the blame should not be put on us, since:
Neptulon seems pretty chill overall. He doesn't join the old gods against during Cata and he's also somewhat of a moderating influence. Thematically you could probably say he relies on the other elements to create tides etc like wind blowing water around
Partly, but the main thing he's got going for him is just being really big. He's foolhardy and not massively innovative. For example at the tower he was wandering about outside cutting Kul Tirans in two but you were the one who came up with the idea to get on top of the tower and so on. As for being a 'better' fighter, you're better with technique now, Vark comparably has never really bothered doing it any other way than just charging in and starting swinging his axe as that's worked really well for him before.
They both have significantly. I know I don't put '+10 to this particular roll because youve got a magic sword', but for example you'd have been defeated and captured in the tower if you didn't have it, you'd probably not have been able to fight the elementals if you didn't have a magic weapon, and you also wouldn't have done nearly as well in the previous battle if you didn't have it. It functions as a limited use lightsaber basically and although you 'broke' it you were steadily improving such as in the battle where you didn't need to turn it off.To add to this, neither feel like they contributed much to our success,
At this point, I say we embrace it. We've already burnt all the other bridges to study and it'd at least get us an in with the rest of the Clan (if we're not exiled that is). Honestly, at this point, I'd be surprised if we get any other options beyond being an exile, unless something particularly out of the usual happens.
Feldad will offer it but it'll be put to a vote. I think Grok could go either way.After all that, I don't think Grok's going to want anything to do with it.
Yea I've mentioned it before but the allocation of 'blame' is nebulous at best. You the questers are responsible because you chose the Hunted option at the start but the characters don't know that.As far as the chain of causation goes, unfairly or not, Grok is the one to be blamed, as we kicked this chain of events into motion by following Nazgrel's orders
Very important to note here is that you never were a shaman to start with. You picked warrior in chargen and got fighty abilities, tactics and leadership. Angrais has been training basically from birth because she would have been identified very early on as spiritually sensitive, so yes of course she's a better shaman.One thing I've been a bit curfufled by is the shamen thing on learning from other people. Kinda feels like it should be a more personal thing with much less rote learning from books or mentors.
He's innovative enough to have discovered the joys of gunpowder.Partly, but the main thing he's got going for him is just being really big. He's foolhardy and not massively innovative. For example at the tower he was wandering about outside cutting Kul Tirans in two but you were the one who came up with the idea to get on top of the tower and so on. As for being a 'better' fighter, you're better with technique now, Vark comparably has never really bothered doing it any other way than just charging in and starting swinging his axe as that's worked really well for him before.
Really? Due to how the rolls came out at least, the knights explicitly managed to nullify it. Indeed they not only nullified it, they nullified it the exact same way they would have nullified a normal ****ing sword.They both have significantly. I know I don't put '+10 to this particular roll because youve got a magic sword', but for example you'd have been defeated and captured in the tower if you didn't have it, you'd probably not have been able to fight the elementals if you didn't have a magic weapon, and you also wouldn't have done nearly as well in the previous battle if you didn't have it. It functions as a limited use lightsaber basically and although you 'broke' it you were steadily improving such as in the battle where you didn't need to turn it off.
Which we have used exactly once and it was a colossal failure.The Tome meanwhile taught you several new skills like Flameseeing,
And I'd argue that approach works for learning earth, and whilest flamebending maybe "legitimate" so far its proven to be a pretty objectively useless one.On the learning of shamanism, I think this varies. Angrais did advise you to be patient. You could have taken actions to go sit under a tree for 10 years and discover it that way as an individual on their own vision quest or whatever and do a lot of meditation. That's what Angrais has been doing, whereas you've been playing with swords etc. The Flamebender's Tome was a legitimate way of learning a particular tradition of shamanism, and as for all the shaman you meet disapproving of it that's because you haven't met that many shaman, for example I had Sorek the Blackrock guy specifically mention one of their shaman who I think I took out of canon called 'Orebreaker', which, like 'Flamebender' implies Dark Shamanism. It's really just the Frostwolf-aligned clans who'd disapprove of Dark Shamanism, to many others its a permissible interpretation.
Oh and someone had a point about there being no good warlocks but I don't seem to have quoted it, my response would be that there are some fel-users who are less bad, like some demon hunters who practice more restraint, but that yes it's an inherently destructive and corrupting magic, the sterotypical 'evil' magic. I might also point to Blizz writing and note that other magics that are equally corrupting are rarely written 'properly' as such, for example you could have some sort of militant order of druids who try and prevent the general industrialisation of Azeroth as time goes on by sabotaging stuff and attacking lumber camps etc, except that doesn't happen. The Order of the Black Harvest are alright as time goes on, but yes several of them become corrupted.
They both have significantly. I know I don't put '+10 to this particular roll because you've got a magic sword', but for example you'd have been defeated and captured in the tower if you didn't have it
Yeah, showing that the bonus is there is a good way to tell people "the skills the MC has do matter", and addresses the complaint that nothing we do ever matters.The +10 to the rolls matters to readers, because its not really been communicated otherwise that there is in fact a difference
Yep, I couldn't have been the only one to notice this. Too bad it is probably broken. Can we replicate the feat with another blade?It functions as a limited use lightsaber basically and although you 'broke' it you were steadily improving such as in the battle where you didn't need to turn it off.
I look to say Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism for examples here.Yeah, showing that the bonus is there is a good way to tell people "the skills the MC has do matter", and addresses the complaint that nothing we do ever matters.
No. Not because we can't do it with another sword (it wasn't inherant to it, we learned how to do it breaking it the first time), but because its a shamanistic ability and we can't do any shamanism anymore.Yep, I couldn't have been the only one to notice this. Too bad it is probably broken. Can we replicate the feat with another blade?
Its simply unuseable.
Flameseeing
Base roll = 35 (25+10 for Fire Affinity)
Targeting = 98
Power = 24
Understanding the vision = 34
Detection? = 24
Really? Due to how the rolls came out at least, the knights explicitly managed to nullify it. Indeed they not only nullified it, they nullified it the exact same way they would have nullified a normal ****ing sword.
I'll first make the point that I've changed some of this and to an extent its to do with how I use dice in this quest and also it being my first quest. In the other one I'm running I'm using a much more structured approach with clearly defined ways of showing the degrees of success and failure etc. I remember someone saying that I was rolling too much and it felt back so I've been doing it less, now you have 1 roll for a particular action (usually) rather than the whole 'roll for availability of instructor' etc. It's the same with the bonuses I was providing for the character sheet skills etc which I eventually took off.[Flameseeing] we have used exactly once and it was a colossal failure.
Ah sorry, I think I address this in the infopost on it, but yes there's no judicial arbiter, I more meant that that like Thrall was sad because he felt depressed and therefore lost his elemental connection, so too is Grok depressed and therefore feels empty, has ptsd, that sort of thing. Having said that though everyone yells at Guldan for using magic in the film and although they're in different continuities that pretty clearly indicates to me that it's considered cheating, but yea, mentioned that it's a complex thing in the info post so not really anything else to say on it.TL;DR: Nothing in the lore says Thrall cheated in Mak'gora. His lost connection with the elements is better explained by his guilt of making Garrosh warchief of the Horde and all that that led to than the elements arbitrarily taking interest in orcish tradition that has nothing to do with them based on rules that we don't understand well enough to definitively say Thrall cheated on.
Druidism makes you grow horns and wings, turns your skin mossy and stuff, makes you fall asleep and get trapped in metaphysical dreams etc, which could potentially be seen as corruption, eg Narelex and others. Shamanism can also have extremes, for example ' His mind roams freely and countless personalities invade his memories and his thoughts. When speaking to a spirit walker, one can never be entirely certain that only the spirit walker replies. He speaks with the voices of the ancients. Elderly spirit walkers sometimes lose all memories of their original selves, slipping from one spirit to the next without warning or control. ', so schizophrenia rather than the egomania of warlocks, again a source of corruption.I legit cannot find anything indicating that say drudaism makes one go even half as crazy as fel,
Well clearly it works for Feldad, but as you say whenever you fail you could change your mind, did you lose because you couldn't predict the battle, because you lacked the equipment, because you didn't have something else, that sort of thing.Every time there is a failure the dilemma is: either the instrument was wrong, or we didn't have enough of it. I don't know where Flameseeing falls.
I mean the thing with rolling in general is that the more you do it, the more the law of big numbers kicks into effect.One point though is that we're getting to the end of an arc so I'm thinking this could be a good time to make some changes to the system, including rolls, which will provide greater clarity, so while I think the specific points like the rolling 5 times are less relevant now, it's still good feedback so thanks.
While that specific instance was indeed a failure, I am talking much more generally on its utility, because as it was originally used shown I flat out would not want to use it for meta reasons, even if we were 100% trained in it. Its playing russian roulette five times with Schodinger's hand gun.
@Netos I have a better question where was this option before?that's because you tried to learn it out a book and never took an action to just go and learn it from Feldad for example, who you know is good at it.
Pretty sure the movie is thisAh sorry, I think I address this in the infopost on it, but yes there's no judicial arbiter, I more meant that that like Thrall was sad because he felt depressed and therefore lost his elemental connection, so too is Grok depressed and therefore feels empty, has ptsd, that sort of thing. Having said that though everyone yells at Guldan for using magic in the film and although they're in different continuities that pretty clearly indicates to me that it's considered cheating, but yea, mentioned that it's a complex thing in the info post so not really anything else to say on it.
And yet the point stands, that I'd rather put up with hibernation and deal with walking through doors sideways then have to keep my overwhelming desire to rip everyone to shreds because they exist in check.Druidism makes you grow horns and wings, turns your skin mossy and stuff, makes you fall asleep and get trapped in metaphysical dreams etc, which could potentially be seen as corruption, eg Narelex and others. Shamanism can also have extremes, for example ' His mind roams freely and countless personalities invade his memories and his thoughts. When speaking to a spirit walker, one can never be entirely certain that only the spirit walker replies. He speaks with the voices of the ancients. Elderly spirit walkers sometimes lose all memories of their original selves, slipping from one spirit to the next without warning or control. ', so schizophrenia rather than the egomania of warlocks, again a source of corruption.
While I don't remember seeing *this* specifically, we *could* have thought of it. We had the option to ask Neeru for help or look in his library. At some point I mentioned that we could ask him on how to subjugate Proudpeak, or read more on flame-seeing. But other plans were voted in, and consulting that intricate juicy library was not an option.
I think that despite what I think, if it gets in the way of the narrative, which a couple of people have mentioned it has, it becomes problematic. Even if I maintain that I think it was good or bad or whatever, I'll still be doing something about it because it shouldn't really be taking up people's notice in the first place, and also I think some structure will probably be good.There's no real good answer as a quester, I suppose hence why you tend to focus on trying to obtain "solid" bonuses.
I looked through all the options of the last few turns, only once did we have the option to even talk to ask him about what it was, but I can't find any indication that we knew he himself could do it!
In fact no @FractiousDay this information comes well the hell out of no where from the man who admitted that
Ah so it wasn't my intention to indicate that Neeru was an expert in it or had trained as a shaman. He's always been a warlock sure, but he's a Burning Blade warlock and he's presumably read the Tome before. No I didn't give you a specific action to learn it off him but you've had the options to socialise with him, to learn demon magic (presumably off him) and to do various other things like read his books. You've also always had the options for write ins. The first time he's introduced you look at him through a fire, he quickly senses this and thinks its an attack, recognises you and communicates with you, indicating a general level of competence at magic and specifically the ability to interact with your Flameseeing. I've always written the BB as having unique traditions of shamanism and magic generally, specifically to do with fire but also swords as their name suggests, and your father is the (public) chief of the clan and therefore has at least some knowledge in this area. Warlocks aren't generally known for their prophetic abilities but he could have given you some stories about his childhood and perceptions of the actual Flameseers etc.I don't remember seeing *this* specifically, we *could* have thought of it.
Missed this, thing was that also didn't come across because we weren't getting through their armour thanks to the sword. Again kinda like them using real life tactics to deal with a magic sword, we used mundane tactics to get through their normal armour with a magic sword, targetting weakspots like their legs and neck, where (by virtue of it being...ya know armour) its is significantly weaker or in some cases non-existant to the point that an IRL human can inflict major damage the same way.Within the context of being outnumbered 4 to 1, not having any armour yourself, being restricted in your movements and so on you did really well to survive and though yes their armour was more difficult for your sword to cut through it still allowed you to actually get through their armour. That's how armour works, it protects you, if you'd just had a normal sword you wouldn't have been able to do much because they're much better equipped than you.
Ya see this is where you as the creator and what we see as the players meet and clash.Ah so it wasn't my intention to indicate that Neeru was an expert in it or had trained as a shaman. He's always been a warlock sure, but he's a Burning Blade warlock and he's presumably read the Tome before. No I didn't give you a specific action to learn it off him but you've had the options to socialise with him, to learn demon magic (presumably off him) and to do various other things like read his books. You've also always had the options for write ins. The first time he's introduced you look at him through a fire, he quickly senses this and thinks its an attack, recognises you and communicates with you, indicating a general level of competence at magic and specifically the ability to interact with your Flameseeing. I've always written the BB as having unique traditions of shamanism and magic generally, specifically to do with fire but also swords as their name suggests, and your father is the (public) chief of the clan and therefore has at least some knowledge in this area. Warlocks aren't generally known for their prophetic abilities but he could have given you some stories about his childhood and perceptions of the actual Flameseers etc.
In hindsight I should probably have combined the various meditation actions instead of having normal meditation, warsight and flameseeing and confusing matters, so I suppose lesson learnt on that.
The Tome meanwhile taught you several new skills like Flameseeing, as well as teaching you how to do shamanism, which I'll come to later in this response.
It's really just the Frostwolf-aligned clans who'd disapprove of Dark Shamanism, to many others its a permissible interpretation.
Anyway permissible yes, but still evil. There's a big difference between being a door mat for the elements and actively enslaving them. Slavery not good, hot take I know.
Or to simplify, Dark Shamanism is Shamanism, but we didn't put two and two together that Burning Blade Shamanism was Dark Shamanism. Likely exemplified by the fact that Flamebinding doesn't sound too bad on paper. To me at least an unbound flame is essentially a wildfire (or burning out), so in order for a shaman to harness flame in a way that is safe by any definition of the word it has to be bound. Not that we were essentially enslaving it to our will.To add onto this, When asked about this earlier in the quest, IIRC, GM explained that ours was just a different way of doing shamansim, rather than as Dark Shamanism, and I think that due to players not knowing much about shamanism or its variants besides the vague idea that it deals with elements, it led us to keep choosing and siding with Dark Shamanism choices. Now, while having the agency (and maybe the ignorance) to make such a choice can be befitting of a game based on agency, I fear this also may have unfairly led players into the choice, as we didn't understand what the distinctions were, in or out of character.
You do realise Forneas walked his arse right on through Orgrimmar and presumably smashed a **** ton. He was essentially a wild raid boss kazrak and the like. The main difference is that there wasn't a centaur army following in behind him.particular weapon of the centaur go off against our clan rather then the capital as a whole originally is worth something.